CHALLENGE TO THE "UFO BELIEVERS"

Nathan Berburoc

Let me state first that I am convinced by sheer statistical probability and the Drake equation that there is alien life in our galaxy, and im equally convinced that it has been and continues to
visit the earth.But i am also convinced that not a single UFO video anywhere shows an alien space craft and not a single abductee has ever seen one of these crafts inhabitants.
I've started to despair lately at a rapidly spreading bizarre and disturbing paranormal phenomena in Ireland BELIEVERS
I've come to the conclusion that the vast majority of ufo investigators and witnesses are unwittingly or intentionally disinformers.A charge that's often labelled at sceptics is that we are narrow minded , dogmatic and inflexible to possibilities which differ from the establishment , however these so called UFO BELIEVERS embody everything they would accuse their detractors of.
They are completely narrow minded ,attempting to funnel every anomalous optical or ecological phenomena in to the pigeon hole of some phoney baloney subjective ufo experience.Blind to occums razor and the probabilities of the natural world.
They are dogmatic in the fact that they use the term belief as if an experience in itself and a predisposition towards it somehow lends credibility.what the hell are they actually saying they believe in? that they see lights, that lights are there , or that lights alone are by some fantastic heuristic leap actually the biproduct of an interstellar craft flying through the skies lit up like a tacky corner shop Christmas decoration in February? the idea that what at best may be an interaction between a specimen and a impersonal vonneuman probe would be construed by the contactee as a
mystical experience would be laughable if it was symptomatic of how totally unprepared we are in general as a society.
What I'm describing here are people who cannot tell the difference between observation and belief.people who think that possibility is probablility,and who would surely not recognise an extraterrestrial
if it jump up and bit them on the tentacle.
These gobeens do nothing but further push disclosure back and greatly perpetuate the power of militaries across the planet to exploit the myth of ufo contact as a cover for the testing of experimental aircraft.Disinformation has muddied the waters of truth so greatly as to render the truth indiscernible from the adolescent fantasies of the so called believers
Its certainly not my intention to label as liars the people who believe, one of the danger words, that aliens are visiting them in their bedrooms at night or that every metallic glint or passing satellite they
see over their trailor park.
what i am doing is laying down a challenge for them to prove the WHYS
why would extraterrestrials regularly fly across the skies of an uncontacted post industrial planet flashing like some kind of nuclear powered pinball machine
when it would be entirely within the technological abilities of a spacefaring civilisation to be completely invisible?its at worst rude and inelegant and at worse it causes a breakdown in
social cohesion,and is a source of pollution of indigenous belief systems ,see cargo cults ,why would they be in any way interested in your reproductive biology or your biology in general? any system on earth from sociological heuristics to the human genoume are already starting to become in reach of our computer simulations and would surely be childs play for any spacefaring AI which was operating at superluminal speed,making it wholly unnecessary to get down
and dirty with the local wildlife
why are they biological ,anthropomorphic, oxygen breathing and conveniently human sized,when all logic about both biological and technological evolution would suggest that any visitation would be either from an entirely information/artilect based lifeform which would in theory be microscopic or else an indistinguishable facsimile of a human which would be totally indistinguishable?
I would go so far as to state that meaningful contact with ETs is at present an impossibility due to the unbridgable gap in our understanding and the sheer bizarre nature of
contact between two totally different cultures.We would suffer from hysterical blindness even to look upon an alien face which is why the experience will continue to
be masked by the deranged flash gordan like fantasies of UFO BELIEVERS and disinformers alike
Please prove wrong and/or share you thoughts on the motivations behind alien visits to earth.

Riamfada

Can someone please fix that so I can read it?

challengemaster

I think the challenge is to read the post...

SteelyDanJalapeno

Grimes wrote: »

Can someone please fix that so I can read it?

:(:( tried my best for you,

Let me state first that I am convinced by sheer statistical probability and the Drake equation that there is alien life in our galaxy, and im equally convinced that it has been and continues to visit the earth. But i am also convinced that not a single UFO video anywhere shows an alien space craft and not a single abductee has ever seen one of these crafts inhabitants.

I've started to despair lately at a rapidly spreading bizarre and disturbing paranormal phenomena in Ireland "BELIEVERS", I've come to the conclusion that the vast majority of ufo investigators and witnesses are unwittingly or intentionally disinformers. A charge that's often labelled at sceptics is that we are narrow minded, dogmatic and inflexible to possibilities which differ from the establishment, however these so called UFO BELIEVERS embody everything they would accuse their detractors of.

They are completely narrow minded, attempting to funnel every anomalous optical or ecological phenomena in to the pigeon hole of some phoney baloney subjective ufo experience. Blind to occums razor and the probabilities of the natural world. They are dogmatic in the fact that they use the term belief as if an experience in itself and a predisposition towards it somehow lends credibility.what the hell are they actually saying they believe in? that they see lights, that lights are there, or that lights alone are by some fantastic heuristic leap actually the biproduct of an interstellar craft flying through the skies lit up like a tacky corner shop Christmas decoration in February? the idea that what at best may be an interaction between a specimen and a impersonal vonneuman probe would be construed by the contactee as a mystical experience would be laughable if it was symptomatic of how totally unprepared we are in general as a society.

What I'm describing here are people who cannot tell the difference between observation and belief, people who think that possibility is probablility, and who would surely not recognise an extraterrestrial
if it jump up and bit them on the tentacle. These gobeens do nothing but further push disclosure back and greatly perpetuate the power of militaries across the planet to exploit the myth of ufo contact as a cover for the testing of experimental aircraft. Disinformation has muddied the waters of truth so greatly as to render the truth indiscernible from the adolescent fantasies of the so called believers.

Its certainly not my intention to label as liars the people who believe, one of the danger words, that aliens are visiting them in their bedrooms at night or that every metallic glint or passing satellite they see over their trailor park.

what i am doing is laying down a challenge for them to prove the WHYS
why would extraterrestrials regularly fly across the skies of an uncontacted post industrial planet flashing like some kind of nuclear powered pinball machine. when it would be entirely within the technological abilities of a spacefaring civilisation to be completely invisible? its at worst rude and inelegant and at worse it causes a breakdown in social cohesion, and is a source of pollution of indigenous belief systems, see cargo cults, why would they be in any way interested in your reproductive biology or your biology in general? any system on earth from sociological heuristics to the human genoume are already starting to become in reach of our computer simulations and would surely be childs play for any spacefaring AI which was operating at superluminal speed, making it wholly unnecessary to get down and dirty with the local wildlife, why are they biological, anthropomorphic, oxygen breathing and conveniently human sized,when all logic about both biological and technological evolution would suggest that any visitation would be either from an entirely information/artilect based lifeform which would in theory be microscopic or else an indistinguishable facsimile of a human which would be totally indistinguishable?

I would go so far as to state that meaningful contact with ETs is at present an impossibility due to the unbridgable gap in our understanding and the sheer bizarre nature of contact between two totally different cultures.We would suffer from hysterical blindness even to look upon an alien face which is why the experience will continue to be masked by the deranged flash gordan like fantasies of UFO BELIEVERS and disinformers alike
Please prove wrong and/or share you thoughts on the motivations behind alien visits to earth.

Oryx

They come with the gift of paragraphs.

You say the believers are full of guff, but youve made some pretty striking assumptions on the behavior of these supposed aliens yourself. On what do you base all these notions of their interests, physiological makeup and physical characteristics?

maccored

what i am doing is laying down a challenge for them to prove the WHYS

I have this dream that some day there'll be a 'Make A Zillion Quid And Then Give It To Maccored' Challange - just to see if its possible.

Major Lovechild

I'm working on it. Be patient!

Oryx

Stick to the topic, thank you

Major Lovechild

OP: This is a perfect example of what happens when you blithely copy and paste without due regard for the reader. Questions should be posed properly if you expect anyone to answer them. I have done this for you. I'm good like that.

what i am doing is laying down a challenge for them to prove the WHYS

Why would extraterrestrials regularly fly across the skies of an uncontacted post industrial planet flashing like some kind of nuclear powered pinball machine?
When it would be entirely within the technological abilities of a spacefaring civilisation to be completely invisible? its at worst rude and inelegant and at worse it causes a breakdown in social cohesion, and is a source of pollution of indigenous belief systems, see cargo cults.

Why would they be in any way interested in your reproductive biology or your biology in general?
any system on earth from sociological heuristics to the human genoume are already starting to become in reach of our computer simulations and would surely be childs play for any spacefaring AI which was operating at superluminal speed, making it wholly unnecessary to get down and dirty with the local wildlife.

Why are they biological, anthropomorphic, oxygen breathing and conveniently human sized?
When all logic about both biological and technological evolution would suggest that any visitation would be either from an entirely information/artilect based lifeform which would in theory be microscopic or else an indistinguishable facsimile of a human which would be totally indistinguishable?

Go for it people!

maccored

i cant - theres just too many preconceived notions in that.

Nathan Berburoc

maccored wrote: »

i cant - theres just too many preconceived notions in that.

firstly apologies for the paragraphs lads,i had to copy and paste as my work pc kept crashing,although im sure if your the kind of person who believes that interstellar craft can traverse decades of space only to crash with alarming regularity in trailorparks and deserts then you can sympathise with my computer issues

secondly, a good point about the preconceptions but surely lacking any tangible proof all we can do is speculate about ET using the facts we do have,namely the staggering variety and diversity of life on this planet,the constraints of spacetravel on biological life.as for the non biological preconceptions ,which ones exactly do you find illogical or non scientific?

maccored

but doesnt it kinda undermine your argument when you are complaining about people making their own assumptions, even though you yourself are guilty of doing very much the same thing?

Nathan Berburoc

a valid point surely , but where i differ is i dont claim to have the answers as these "contactees" or "ufo believers" do.And just because one type of assumtions are invalid ( those based on specious reasoning , overdoses of science fiction and subjectivity) doesnt necessarily mean that all assumtions must be invalid , and an educated guess based on deductive reasoning and science is a hell of a lot more reliable than one based on too much jerry springer and xfiles.

that said all im doing is seperate the wheat from the chaff, viewing the alien contact experience from their view point rather than from ours and seeing what sticks and what should be discarded.clearly much of the things these people are reporting as "alien" would be grossly inelegant displays of technology ,and vulgar undiplomatic meddling

Oryx

Who are these believers you are talking about?

maccored

I think that, considering we dont have the full facts at all in regards to UFOs, everyones opinion is speculation - including your own - and therefore, since we dont have the answers, everyone - including yourself - is entitled to one.

What I dont agree with is your belief that you have it right, and the 'ufo believers' (whoever they are) have it wrong.

For example, your assumption that "it would be entirely within the technological abilities of a spacefaring civilisation to be completely invisible " certainly is not "an educated guess based on deductive reasoning and science". You are contradicting yourself.

Nathan Berburoc wrote: »

a valid point surely , but where i differ is i dont claim to have the answers as these "contactees" or "ufo believers" do.And just because one type of assumtions are invalid ( those based on specious reasoning , overdoses of science fiction and subjectivity) doesnt necessarily mean that all assumtions must be invalid , and an educated guess based on deductive reasoning and science is a hell of a lot more reliable than one based on too much jerry springer and xfiles.

that said all im doing is seperate the wheat from the chaff, viewing the alien contact experience from their view point rather than from ours and seeing what sticks and what should be discarded.clearly much of the things these people are reporting as "alien" would be grossly inelegant displays of technology ,and vulgar undiplomatic meddling

Nathan Berburoc

even if you think complete invisibility and stealth is beyond the ability of a civilsation capable of faster than light travel ,surely you would agree that lights on the outside of a space ship are unecessary ? for whose benefit are they ?

Oryx

Nathan Berburoc wrote: »

even if you think complete invisibility and stealth is beyond the ability of a civilsation capable of faster than light travel ,surely you would agree that lights on the outside of a space ship are unecessary ? for whose benefit are they ?

Well how are we supposed to know? It could be religious, it could be technological, it could be cos they like em. My point being that if you say the believers are wrong in this, what makes you the expert? Your assumptions are also based on human, earthbound experience and could be just as inaccurate.

Nathan Berburoc

firstly ,if you read my admittedly badly pasted first post you`l see im not claiming to be an expert,im merely concerned that the perception of the ufo phenomena is preventing actual study and disclosure and is merely perpetuating disinformation.

i totally agree , of course my opinions are just that ,and im sure they are wide of the mark.what they are not though are the kind of cargo cult logic that people who claim to have seen alien spacecraft are.as in sure you`d agree extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof,and yet with millions of hours of video footage,with thousands of amature astronomers watching the skies daily and even with plain old dumb human luck,not a single conclusive visual contact or landing has been confirmed?

your point about their being some religious or personal reason they show the lights could of course be possible ,but im not sure id like to meet an alien race which is so reckless ,negligent and disrespectful of the human race that they would alarm and confuse us.its not very good anthropology and it has already severly messed up any experimentation they might hope to carry out.Even here on earth we divert air traffic over papau new guinea and Sentinel islands for that very reason.

maccored

Nathan Berburoc wrote: »

even if you think complete invisibility and stealth is beyond the ability of a civilsation capable of faster than light travel ,surely you would agree that lights on the outside of a space ship are unecessary ? for whose benefit are they ?

who says they want to be invisible? Maybe they want to be seen. thats if aliens do visit earth - I cant say if they do or not, or even if they exist.

Standman

I've always been a bit confused by the use of the term UFO to describe some kind of alien spacecraft. If it really is a UFO (i.e. unidentified) then you can't really claim to know anything about where it came from or what it is.
Seems to me that it is more logical to speculate that these UFOs have more down to earth explainations.

Nathan Berburoc

my thoughts exactly..... common sense should prevail and the most likely explainations should be considered before we brand something unidentified as alien

we are living in a world thats being criss crossed thousands of times a day by aircraft and satellites.All the great military powers have a history of test flying experimental craft whose existence is not disclosed to the public ( for example the lockheed blackbird which was developed in the 50`s and still looks impressively futuristic today). So its far more likely that these ufos are merely unidentified due to lack of observers experience with weather balloons ,aviation and meteorology rather than aliens!

A lot of these triangular craft which are being seen over Ireland and Europe bear a striking similarity to delta design of black project USAF craft like aurora yet to a layman would look very impressive and exotic

Oryx

My understanding of your post is that you are complaining that 'laypeople' are jumping on these sightings and calling them alien, or that you are speaking of abductees who come up with stories of little grey men. I dont agree that there is a host of such disinformation out there. Sightings crop up, get explained as chinese lanterns or aircraft or whatever. There are very few stories that defy explanation. Which is why I asked who are you talking about here, who are these believers who are spouting the stuff youre cross about??

Nathan Berburoc

I classify Believers as people who substitute a desire to understand or objectively critique a phenomena in favour of "believing" without evidence or justification.If someone said they "believed" in gravity,would you not find it odd,that something which existed required belief instead observation.

in effect belief becomes a shortcut to thinking.....

being a layperson meself ,its not that element of it im cross about ,its the fact that every new story ,the latest grainy blurry ufo footage or wild tale of an*l probing which pops up simply takes us further away from the truth and making it neigh on impossible for anyone who is genuinely trying to understand a phenomena rather than force a label on it.I think its known as the turd in the punchbowl effect.you have a load of decent solid evidence about something,then your witness suddenly says "oh and jesus told me they were martians"

whats really getting my goat lately is that in this country we have been particularly blighted with belief rather than understanding ( are ufos that much different from moving statues,holy stumps or fairyrings?)

charlemont

We humans dont know the half of things that go on in the universe, id say the changes of live out there are high..

Standman

The the UFO Society of Ireland go down to Boyle the odd time to survey the skys. I wouldn't have known the society existed only I saw an article about them in the local newpaper once or twice. Their FAQ outlines their beliefs regarding UFOs.

They classify a UFO as just that - unidentified - but then go on to say they must be sure it is not a man made object before claiming it is actually a UFO although how they can do that is beyond me. Theres no mention of abductions or experiments or any of that kind of thing as far as I can see. Also they make no claims on the appearance of aliens nor do they actually ever mention the word "alien" , saying the UFOs are not man made is as close as they get.

I would wonder if the questions posed by the OP are valid in an Irish context?

Nathan Berburoc

Are you also aware though that the late founder of the UFO society of irelands ( former president Betty Myler)recieved information about UFOs from "spirit guides" and astrology?...........oh dear

perhaps someone could clear that part up if im mistaken (and of course no disrespect to the deceased lady in question,she was entitled to her beliefs and im sure she was honest in her intentions)