Is this grounds for an NCT Fail/Refusal? (pics)

omelette

Hi. First off, why doesn't the forums Search function highlight a single thread with NCT in the title? Not on...

Anyway, I had an NCT test (Longford) last week and despite passing all the relevent bits, they failed me for "Under-carriage not clean". Fair enough I thought, I hadn't checked it and with another car in the past, had had the same thing sited (though they had failed it for something more serious) and when I went to clean it, it was pretty bad!

Today I actually went out and bought a paint-scraper especially for the clean-up and was astounded to find when I got under the car that it was spotless - all that's on the underside is that protective tar coating! At first I thought that the idiot had got my car confused with another one, until I noticed some mud build-up under both rear mud-wings that may have been the issue, though this seems harsh in the extreme to me! The first 3 photos show the 'problem', the last one is a pic of the other side after a 10sec clean. How can they charge an additional 28 euro for something that trivial!

So my question, are the below pics grounds for an NCT Fail/Refusal?

hobochris

was it a weekend or week day test?

I ask because I've herd that its lads from the local Co council that work in the test centre on weekends apparently they will try fail a car for anything they can.

Where as the regular lads test the cars fairly.

This is what I've herd anyway via pub rumours.

looking at the pictures they probably had trouble inspecting the bushings.

omelette

It was last Friday, after 6pm.

So you would consider it a valid fail? Quoting the tester, "absolutely filthy" seems more than harsh...

BrianD3

Well I wouldn't submit a car for its NCT with a big clump of dirt covering brake lines/unions as in the first 3 pics. So it's a valid fail in my view.

omelette

I guess what's considered "harsh" is relative!

As I said, I didn't even check before the test, but I considered the "underside" to not include mud-wings - obviously not!!!

I am curious to know if others have been failed for the same (or similar) thing.

mathepac

omelette wrote: »

... So my question, are the below pics grounds for an NCT Fail/Refusal?

Yes. It is impossible to see brake-lines, suspension components, bushings, underbody mount-points, etc clearly, and it cannot be established if the car has been crashed and had repairs to structural components (chassis. sub-frame, etc.)

Matt Simis

omelette wrote: »

Hi. First off, why doesn't the forums Search function highlight a single thread with NCT in the title? Not on...

Cos you are doing it wrong:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/search.php?searchid=15452541#

On nearly all forums you need to add a "*" to 3 letter searches, ie "NCT*". Will find "NCT" and NCT1 and NCT2324324324 etc.

biko

Sorry, but if the dirt is caked over the brake lines they can/will fail you.
I got a fail on forgetting to remove centre caps on my alloys so I feel your pain.

They're not going to do anything for you, be it clean or remove stuff.
It's your responsibility to have the car ready and presentable.

omelette

Matt Simis wrote: »

Cos you are doing it wrong:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/search.php?searchid=15452541#

On nearly all forums you need to add a "*" to 3 letter searches, ie "NCT*". Will find "NCT" and NCT1 and NCT2324324324 etc.

Oh yeah, forgot about that! Many forums will prompt you if you are entered a search-term that is too short though...

ART6

Given the state of most of our roads -- mud and cow s**t from farms, mud and grime from developers, lack of anything approaching road sweeping etc -- I imagine a little old lady who's Micra is due for NCT. She doesn't have pressure washer or the means to get under the car. She can't clean and polish with Pledge everything in the subframe. Even if she did the underside would be coated with muck on the way to the test centre. She can't find a valeting service who will undertake to clean anything more than the bodywork even if she could afford it. In fact many drivers, I suspect, simply don't have the means to clean their cars undercarriage to surgical standards.

If the NCTS "mechanics" can't establish that brake pipes are sound or not without a scrub and polish by the owner, then I sense a rip off:mad:

omelette

Thanks for the replies guys. So it's pretty much unanimous, serves me right!

If they're that strict I better give it a thorough going-over (not easy as I'm limited to a couple of car-jacks). I could take it to a garage but spending any more on this wreck is killing me. The irony is that this thing (Corolla '00) burns oil like it's going out of fashion, yet the NCT report shows next to no omissions!

If he fails me in 2 weeks time you'll probably hear about it in the news 'cos some NCT tester will have to have a brand-new paint scraper surgically removed from you-know-where.

Anan1

ART6 wrote: »

Given the state of most of our roads -- mud and cow s**t from farms, mud and grime from developers, lack of anything approaching road sweeping etc -- I imagine a little old lady who's Micra is due for NCT. She doesn't have pressure washer or the means to get under the car. She can't clean and polish with Pledge everything in the subframe. Even if she did the underside would be coated with muck on the way to the test centre. She can't find a valeting service who will undertake to clean anything more than the bodywork even if she could afford it. In fact many drivers, I suspect, simply don't have the means to clean their cars undercarriage to surgical standards.

If the NCTS "mechanics" can't establish that brake pipes are sound or not without a scrub and polish by the owner, then I sense a rip off:mad:

The fact is that brake lines in the pics can't be examined with big clods of mud covering them. There are three options here:

1. The old lady has her brake lines cleaned for the test

2. The NCT staff clean the brake lines and charge for same

3. The brake lines are not examined.

Which would you suggest?

biko

Applicable parts of the manual, I think

Testers may refuse a test in the following circumstances:
(i) where in their opinion any part of the vehicle or its equipment is in such a dirty or dangerous condition as to make it unreasonably diffcult to carry out the test.

Pay particular attention to a chassis or underbody which is encrusted with dirt. There may be cracks or fractures in high stress areas obscured by this dirt.

http://www.ncts.ie/pdf/nctmanual.pdf

omelette

ART6 wrote: »

Given the state of most of our roads -- mud and cow s**t from farms, mud and grime from developers, lack of anything approaching road sweeping etc -- I imagine a little old lady who's Micra is due for NCT. She doesn't have pressure washer or the means to get under the car. She can't clean and polish with Pledge everything in the subframe. Even if she did the underside would be coated with muck on the way to the test centre. She can't find a valeting service who will undertake to clean anything more than the bodywork even if she could afford it. In fact many drivers, I suspect, simply don't have the means to clean their cars undercarriage to surgical standards.

If the NCTS "mechanics" can't establish that brake pipes are sound or not without a scrub and polish by the owner, then I sense a rip off:mad:

Before the 'new NCT rules' came in a few years ago I personally witnessed my own car's brake-lines being cleaned off & examined by the tester - so then at least, some of them were quite happy to do it! I don't know if the rules-change affected this.

I was really surprised (given the state of the roads!) how clean the underside of my car was - pretty much spotless, even though I don't think I have ever taken it to a car-wash. And definitely not since the last NCT test, 2-odd years ago...

ART6

Anan1 wrote: »

The fact is that brake lines in the pics can't be examined with big clods of mud covering them. There are three options here:

1. The old lady has her brake lines cleaned for the test

2. The NCT staff clean the brake lines and charge for same

3. The brake lines are not examined.

Which would you suggest?

OK. How and who does she ask to get her brake lines cleaned (even if she knew what they were)?

Brake line leaks are easily seen whether or not covered with mud. Hydraulic oil makes identifiable marks.

Of course brake line should be examined, but a little common sense would not go amiss.

Some years ago now I was chief MOT tester at a test centre in the UK for their equivalent of the NCT. We employed mechanics who had sufficient wit to make allowances for the client and to take a wire brush to anything they had doubts about.

Anan1

ART6 wrote: »

OK. How and who does she ask to get her brake lines cleaned (even if she knew what they were)?

She pays someone, like most people do.

ART6 wrote: »

Brake line leaks are easily seen whether or not covered with mud. Hydraulic oil makes identifiable marks.

Fraying, swelling and damage can make lines dangerous without any visible leakage.

ART6 wrote: »

Of course brake line should be examined, but a little common sense would not go amiss.

Some years ago now I was chief MOT tester at a test centre in the UK for their equivalent of the NCT. We employed mechanics who had sufficient wit to make allowances for the client and to take a wire brush to anything they had doubts about.

So you want responsibility for cleaning the lines to move from the owner to the NCTS?

L-M

Matt Simis wrote: »

Cos you are doing it wrong:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/search.php?searchid=15452541#

On nearly all forums you need to add a "*" to 3 letter searches, ie "NCT*". Will find "NCT" and NCT1 and NCT2324324324 etc.

Learn somthing new everyday

ART6

Anan1 wrote: »

She pays someone, like most people do.

Ah. Pays someone. That sounds familiar.


Fraying, swelling and damage can make lines dangerous without any visible leakage.

Yup. And as a senior tester I could see it.


So you want responsibility for cleaning the lines to move from the owner to the NCTS?

Come now! How many motorists have the means of cleaning every component of the undersize of their cars before an NCT?

I just want a little realism to sneak it's way in to the cast iron bureaucracy that is invading life.

kazul

hobochris wrote: »

was it a weekend or week day test?

I ask because I've herd that its lads from the local Co council that work in the test centre on weekends apparently they will try fail a car for anything they can.

FFS, you actually believed that horses***e??????

Anan1

ART6 wrote: »

Come now! How many motorists have the means of cleaning every component of the undersize of their cars before an NCT?

I just want a little realism to sneak it's way in to the cast iron bureaucracy that is invading life.

While I agree with your basic principle, I think washing the muck off brake lines is a poor example to be using.;)

galwaytt

Anan1 wrote: »

The fact is that brake lines in the pics can't be examined with big clods of mud covering them. There are three options here:

1. The old lady has her brake lines cleaned for the test

2. The NCT staff clean the brake lines and charge for same

3. The brake lines are not examined.

Which would you suggest?

I'd suggest the fuggin' council maintain the roads properly, but hey, that ain't goin' to happen.........

Anan1 wrote: »

While I agree with your basic principle, I think washing the muck off brake lines is a poor example to be using.;)

True.

And it's not actually feasible/possible to wash the underside properly, imho, anyway.

mathepac

ART6 wrote: »

Come now! How many motorists have the means of cleaning every component of the undersize of their cars before an NCT?
....

I can't see where any motorist is asked to clean "every component of the undersize [sic] of their cars before an NCT". Can you show me a link to this requirement?

Everyone has access to a power-washer / car-wash to blast the muck off wheels, tyres, sills, wheel-arches, etc, which is all that's needed.

johndaman66

hobochris wrote: »

I ask because I've herd that its lads from the local Co council that work in the test centre on weekends apparently they will try fail a car for anything they can.

Where as the regular lads test the cars fairly.

This is what I've herd anyway via pub rumours.

I think somebody was trying to winde you up hobochris. Either that or they were badly misinformed themselves. Life has learned me to be very very weary of what I hear down the pub!

It was said to me once by a guy doing a few small bits to my car for preparation for test that a lot of things like these will come down to whether the tester got a bit of action in bed last night or not and think its true enough. To be honest I think the muck on the inside of wheel arches on your car was pushing it a wee bit OP. Might have being a situation that the tester saw some muck on one side and half heartdly knocked it off to inspect brake lines and bushings. Went round to other side, saw it was worse and said to himself ah here, thats it....something like that maybe. A lot might have being down to the day he was having too. It is something thats going to be a bit subjective.

gofaster_s13

Why should the NCT tester have to poke bits of muck, cow ****e, dead dogs etc off a cars underside onto the test centres floor just because the owner is too mean/lazy to wash the car?? the testers work by appointment, if they have to clean the car they run into the next appointments time slot. As a DOE tester I can tell you that you are doing yourself a huge favour by arriving on time and presenting a clean vehicle with the basics(tyres, lights etc.) checked.

gofaster_s13

johndaman66 wrote: »

It was said to me once by a guy doing a few small bits to my car for preparation for test that a lot of things like these will come down to whether the tester got a bit of action in bed last night or not.

What person isnt susceptible to this

johndaman66

gofaster_s13 wrote: »

What person isnt susceptible to this

Well true enough gofaster_s13. Perhaps some more than others too though. Consistency would be a admirable quality here all the same, why should someone fail his test just because guy testing the car is not having an A1 day. I take your point though.

omelette

Just to let people know, I cleaned off the rear brake-lines and it passed! It's just another way to fleece people financially imo.

What really surprised was the number of us that were there, all booked for the same time, and every one a re-test - about 8! Admittedly, the ones I inquired of were in for fails of a different nature - tracking, lights, concealed wheel-nuts.

It would be nice to be profiting from a legal-scam like the NCT test undoubtedly is - no raw materials to purchase, (after the initial setup costs) nothing is consumed, and every 'customer' that walks through your door is paying you, irrespective of the result. Also, you never have to issue a refund for shoddy workmanship...

Let's hope there's something to karma...

mathepac

omelette wrote: »

... I cleaned off the rear brake-lines and it passed! It's just another way to fleece people financially imo. ...

Good to hear it passed. Reading the NCTS FAQ would have saved you €28 though (Bullet point 3 here)

omelette wrote: »

...
It would be nice to be profiting from a legal-scam like the NCT test undoubtedly is - no raw materials to purchase, (after the initial setup costs) nothing is consumed, ...

apart from testers wages, heat, light, insurance, rates, equipment maintenance, phones ...

omelette

mathepac wrote: »

Good to hear it passed. Reading the NCTS FAQ would have saved you €28 though (Bullet point 3 here)
apart from testers wages, heat, light, insurance, rates, equipment maintenance, phones ...

... you mean the stuff that every other 'legitimate' business is forced to pay - my heart bleeds for them!

And it's we the public that are paying their bills - they produce nothing, material, intellectual or otherwise, so couldn't pay squat left to their own merits!

There's a case to be made for the NCT, granted, but having a 60sec retest that is more than half what the proper test costs, particularly for trifles is a scam...

djimi

It might be unfair but its not a scam. Its clearly laid out on their website that the car must be clean and that a retest costs €28; you know the criteria and the consequences of not following the criteria, therefore it is not a scam!