Working too hard?

beglopty

From today's Times:

'The increasing workload on clergy and their growing isolation were discussed at a meeting of priests in Charleville, Co Cork, yesterday. "One priest explained he had said 21 masses in eight days", Fr Brendan Hoban, parish priest at Ballina, Co Mayo, said last night.'

So that's about 21/8 = 2.6 masses per day.
And at a generous 50 minutes per mass, 2.6*50 = 130 minutes.
That's just over 2 hours work per day. They must be starting to ask if worshipping God is really worth all these long hours. Maybe look into getting a council job instead.

seamus

I thought all priests love a good mass?

Merrick

130 mins? God love them, they must be wrecked after all that standing around and talking. :rolleyes:

Canis Lupus

Pretty depressing rolling out the same crap twice a day tho. Easy initially but after a few years I'd say that wears you down

Dades

beglopty wrote: »

So that's about 21/8 = 2.6 masses per day.

I'd say he gets the biggest crowd at the 0.6 mass.

nozzferrahhtoo

The priest who does the mass in the small town I live in in Germany (a town just outside Aschaffenburg) has an imported Nigerian priest with bad English and even worse German.

I heard him recently complaining that he had done three masses in one day too.

1) It seems the number of priests is declining meaning they have to import them.
2) The number they have is not enough to cover the churches requiring masses.
3) The number of people going before each mass in each location is dwindling meaning there is little financial return on investing in any more priests to help with the workload.
4) Despite the fact the masses are relatively not THAT far away, the increasing age and decreasing commitment of congregations means amalgamating the three masses into one would result in only a drop in attendance.
5) One of the two churches in my small town was recently demolished.

All in all, I see little for Catholics priests here in Germany to be optimistic about either.

amacachi

Since it was 8 days I wonder if the day that occurred twice was a Sunday. :rolleyes:

beglopty

amacachi wrote: »

Since it was 8 days I wonder if the day that occurred twice was a Sunday. :rolleyes:

Very likely methinks.

beglopty

With a Holy Day thrown in for good measure:)

Zombrex

beglopty wrote: »

From today's Times:

'The increasing workload on clergy and their growing isolation were discussed at a meeting of priests in Charleville, Co Cork, yesterday. "One priest explained he had said 21 masses in eight days", Fr Brendan Hoban, parish priest at Ballina, Co Mayo, said last night.'

So that's about 21/8 = 2.6 masses per day.
And at a generous 50 minutes per mass, 2.6*50 = 130 minutes.
That's just over 2 hours work per day. They must be starting to ask if worshipping God is really worth all these long hours. Maybe look into getting a council job instead.

Well in fairness it probably involves travelling and preparation, and has to be fitted into all the other duties of a priest.

But I agree, compared to us out here in the real world it doesn't seem like a whole lot of work.

I do think depression and isolation in the priesthood is going to become a grown concern for not just the Catholic church but everyone. While we may ridicule their choices priests are humans too and I worry about the effect the collapsing church is going to have on them. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see rates of depression and even suicide raise significantly in the priesthood in the next 10 to 20 years.

beglopty

^^^
They may not get so depressed or isolated were it not for their archaic views on celibacy and companianship. They made their single bed.

seamus

Wicknight wrote: »

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see rates of depression and even suicide raise significantly in the priesthood in the next 10 to 20 years.

Defection even perhaps? Dwindling congregations, increased workloads, dwindling income, the older priests may decide to pack it in and enjoy the last years of their lives instead of working to hold up what appears to be a crumbling institution.

Zombrex

beglopty wrote: »

^^^
They may not get so depressed or isolated were it not for their archaic views on celibacy and companianship. They made their single bed.

That is a rather uncaring position to take. Priest tend to come from devout families where they are raised with this crap from an early age.

Zombrex

seamus wrote: »

Defection even perhaps? Dwindling congregations, increased workloads, dwindling income, the older priests may decide to pack it in and enjoy the last years of their lives instead of working to hold up what appears to be a crumbling institution.

I don't think so, or at least not easily. Older priests (the ones not hiding so they can fiddle kids) have probably lasted this long because of a devout sense of purpose and faith. That isn't something you give up over night.

beglopty

Wicknight wrote: »

That is a rather uncaring position to take. Priest tend to come from devout families where they are raised with this crap from an early age.

If we all followed our parents, nothing would ever change. It is not an uncaring position to take as its their own actions that have lead to these consequenses.

Zombrex

beglopty wrote: »

It is not an uncaring position to take as its their own actions that have lead to these consequenses.

That is the point, it wasn't their own actions.

If you are lied to by your parents growing up and then suffer depression in adult life when what your parents told you ends up conflicting with the real world it is hardly constructive for everyone else to say well you made your bed.

If you don't care about the mental well being of someone because they are a priest then fair enough, but that is by definition an uncaring position to take.

Zillah

Haha your religion is dying!

FoxT

I am somewhat sympathetic to individual priests. Falling numbers means that many of them have a heavier workload then before.

However, I do not see the church as a whole, as a force for good. I hope that the reduction in the qty of available priests will lead to significant church reforms. If the church does not reform it deserves to decline, and, ultimately, to fail.

beglopty

Wicknight wrote: »

That is the point, it wasn't their own actions.

So priests were now forced into the priesthood? And are now forced to remain there?

Galvasean

Zillah wrote: »

Haha your religion is dying!

I have this image in my head of you poking them with a stick....

Choochtown

Maybe if the workload is too great they could keep out of being on management boards of vocational and community schools. These schools were set up by the state as an alternative to catholic secondary schools yet the vast majority (every single one?) of them has a priest on the board.


Why?

Does he have kids at the school?

Does he legally have to be on the board?

Is he an expert in educational psychology?

Has his Bishop instructed him to influence the running of the school with regard to keeping a catholic church agenda at the forefront of events such as Graduation ceremonies and end of year celebrations?

The answer to the first 3 is no

beglopty

Choochtown wrote: »

Maybe if the workload is too great they could keep out of being on management boards of vocational and community schools. These schools were set up by the state as an alternative to catholic secondary schools yet the vast majority (every single one?) of them has a priest on the board.


Why?

Does he have kids at the school?

Does he legally have to be on the board?

Is he an expert in educational psychology?

Has his Bishop instructed him to influence the running of the school with regard to keeping a catholic church agenda at the forefront of events such as Graduation ceremonies and end of year celebrations?

The answer to the first 3 is no

The answer to the middle three is no:)

Good points though.

Galvasean

Oooh, pedantic. :pac:

beglopty

It's late!

Zillah

Galvasean wrote: »

I have this image in my head of you poking them with a stick....

My card shall read "Zillah - Stick Poker".

Canis Lupus

Zillah wrote: »

My card shall read "Zillah - Stick Poker".

You poke sticks?

magicbastarder

do priests talk about mass in the same way musicians talk about gigs?
'jaysus lads, i played a blinder today, i had them *atin* out of the palm of me hand'.
'fr. joe, you served them communion. of course you did'.

The Mad Hatter

^^^ Everything Wicknight said.

The Mad Hatter

beglopty wrote: »

So priests were now forced into the priesthood? And are now forced to remain there?

In answer to the first thing, many of them were (and are), yes. It's not that long since the days where the first son would go into the father's trade, and the youngest son would be sent to the seminary.

Many priests will stay in the priesthood in spite of their personal feelings due to a sense of duty or obligation. If you see this as force, then yes, they are forced to remain there. Remember that if they're in the priesthood, they probably have an extreme belief in and devotion to their god and their religion. These bonds are not easily broken.

Zombrex

beglopty wrote: »

So priests were now forced into the priesthood? And are now forced to remain there?

No, priests were brain washed into the priesthood. They are forced by convention to remain there because the alternative is too distressing to contemplate. So they end up living miserable lives

beglopty

Brainwashing? Forced by convention? Sorry, just don't buy it. And I'm sure most aren't living miserable lives anyway. What I'm saying is that if these priests believe that this is how their god wants them to live, then leave them to it.

nozzferrahhtoo

And what of the people who believe that the way they should live is to con little old ladies out of their money. Should we “leave them to it” too or are the laws we have against such actions not perfectly justified?

No I will not “leave to it” people who tell lies, con people out of money, issue direct and indirect threats against the souls of the gullible and the vulnerable… all in the name of their “career”.

People conning old women out of money, priests, phisrers who send emails around trying to get you to divulge your bank details, producers and promoters of homeopathy… I see no difference between these people.... they prey on the weak, the vulnerable, the sick, the guillible and more.... and I will not “leave them to it”. Ever. Certainly not because they claim to hear voices from powerful beings who say this is what they should be doing.

Jimmy Bottlehead

Wicknight wrote: »

No, priests were brain washed into the priesthood. They are forced by convention to remain there because the alternative is too distressing to contemplate. So they end up living miserable lives

Brain washed my hoop. I got the same catholic religious clap-trap at home, and I considered being a priest for a brief period. That went from belief into apathy, to self-education, to sensible reasoning, to being a full-blown atheist.

If they buy this crap as real, I have no sympathy.
If they know it's fake and continue to peddle it, I have no sympathy.

Life is too short to publicly support something you privately abhor. I have great admiration for priests who are honest to themselves and to the public by leaving the priesthood, be it from lack of faith or from a desire to experience (legal) human intimacy and the happiness therein.

beglopty

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

And what of the people who believe that the way they should live is to con little old ladies out of their money. Should we “leave them to it” too or are the laws we have against such actions not perfectly justified?

No I will not “leave to it” people who tell lies, con people out of money, issue direct and indirect threats against the souls of the gullible and the vulnerable… all in the name of their “career”.

People conning old women out of money, priests, phisrers who send emails around trying to get you to divulge your bank details, producers and promoters of homeopathy… I see no difference between these people.... they prey on the weak, the vulnerable, the sick, the guillible and more.... and I will not “leave them to it”. Ever. Certainly not because they claim to hear voices from powerful beings who say this is what they should be doing.

We were talking about priests living in isolation, sounds like you've the wrong thread. If they want to live a lonely life because of their beliefs, then yes I say leave them to it.

How have you equated that with the notion that I agree that conmen who break the law and prey on the weak is acceptable?

Zombrex

beglopty wrote: »

Brainwashing? Forced by convention? Sorry, just don't buy it.

Which part?

You don't think most priests would be raised in devout Catholic families, often with an expectation that they would enter the priesthood from an early age?

beglopty wrote: »

And I'm sure most aren't living miserable lives anyway. What I'm saying is that if these priests believe that this is how their god wants them to live, then leave them to it.

Why? If people are suffering from isolation, depression etc why "leave them to it". We wouldn't leave them to it if they were plumbers or firemen.

Do you have a thing against priests?

Zombrex

Jimmy Bottlehead wrote: »

Brain washed my hoop. I got the same catholic religious clap-trap at home, and I considered being a priest for a brief period. That went from belief into apathy, to self-education, to sensible reasoning, to being a full-blown atheist.

If they buy this crap as real, I have no sympathy.
If they know it's fake and continue to peddle it, I have no sympathy.

I would think you should be able to relate better since you considered being a priest yourself. Can you explain why? You obviously believed at some point?

keppler

Wicknight wrote: »

No, priests were brain washed into the priesthood.

beglopty wrote: »

Brainwashing? Forced by convention? Sorry, just don't buy it.

beglopty.....if you want to witness the brainwashing power of the RCC then you should watch the documentary that was just on 3e tonight at 9pm 'sex lives of the irish' (or something like that, im sure you can get a podcast of it somewhere)
There was one man on it in particular I really felt sorry for.......single man, catholic family, successful career(electrical engineer), good looking..........still a virgin AT 42 YEARS OLD. He also said that masturbation is a very negative thing to do because it makes you look at women in an inapropriate way!

think about what you are saying. Anyone who joins the priesthood must be brainwashed in some way or form! They certainly didnt join it for the pay and career opportunities.

beglopty

Wicknight wrote: »

Why? If people are suffering from isolation, depression etc why "leave them to it". We wouldn't leave them to it if they were plumbers or firemen.

Do you have a thing against priests?

You would leave them to it because it is their choice. They have chosen to spend their life with god rather than get too close to any human. To change that mindset, you'd have to change their whole belief system.

A comparison to a plumber cannot be made because I'm talking about abstaining from relationships because of belief rather than just not finding them for whatever reason.

I have nothing against priests in the way that you insinuate, and don't like to see any human being suffer. However, I cannot feel sorry for a priest that stays isolated from humankind because of his beliefs just like I wouldn't feel sorry for a jehovas witness that dies for refusing blood.

beglopty

keppler wrote: »

think about what you are saying. Anyone who joins the priesthood must be brainwashed in some way or form! They certainly didnt join it for the pay and career opportunities.

I'm sure that some people of faith might contend that you have been brainwashed into not believing. I don't believe that, but you can say such a thing about practically anything. I may have been brainwashed when buying my tic-tacs today.

As for the tv show, I didn't see it but maybe he'll get some action now after nationwide coverage.

ColmDawson

beglopty wrote: »

I don't believe that, but you can say such a thing about practically anything. I may have been brainwashed when buying my tic-tacs today.

Did your parents enlist you as a tic tac eater shortly after you were born?
Did you attend a school/schools with a tic tac ethos for eight/fourteen years?
Did your parents bring you to tic tac worship every Sunday?

Your comparison displeases me.

nozzferrahhtoo

beglopty wrote: »

We were talking about priests living in isolation, sounds like you've the wrong thread.

My reply was directly to your post in it's entirely without leaving anything out or adding anything to it. In that sense it is perfectly on topic, relevant and I stand by it.

I am not about to "leave to it" anyone who has a career, lonely or otherwise, isolated or otherwise, financed by telling lies to the sick, vulnerable, ignorant and gullible... or by backing up those lies with tacit threats against the alleged eternal souls of the "mark".

You speak of priests in isolation. I do not see how that exempts them? Where is their money coming from? Who pays their salary? Priests in isolation who are financially accommodated in their endeavorers by priests who do what I describe above are in my eyes no less indictable.

You do not have to be at a murder scene to be prosecuted for being an accessory to murder. You do not even have to be on the same side of the world.

GO_Bear

ColmDawson wrote: »

Did your parents enlist you as a tic tac eater shortly after you were born?
Did you attend a school/schools with a tic tac ethos for eight/fourteen years?
Did your parents bring you to tic tac worship every Sunday?

Your comparison displeases me.

I for one , welcome our new Tic Tac Overlords

PeterIanStaker

keppler wrote: »

beglopty.....if you want to witness the brainwashing power of the RCC then you should watch the documentary that was just on 3e tonight at 9pm 'sex lives of the irish' (or something like that, im sure you can get a podcast of it somewhere)
There was one man on it in particular I really felt sorry for.......single man, catholic family, successful career(electrical engineer), good looking..........still a virgin AT 42 YEARS OLD. He also said that masturbation is a very negative thing to do because it makes you look at women in an inapropriate way!

think about what you are saying. Anyone who joins the priesthood must be brainwashed in some way or form! They certainly didnt join it for the pay and career opportunities.

I really feel sorry for that man, I havent seen the programme, but just going on the above info, he might have been raised in a fire & brimstone home with a heaping on of guilt, and then despite his intellect, was unable to break away from it.

keppler

beglopty wrote: »

I'm sure that some people of faith might contend that you have been brainwashed into not believing. I don't believe that, but you can say such a thing about practically anything. I may have been brainwashed when buying my tic-tacs today.

As for the tv show, I didn't see it but maybe he'll get some action now after nationwide coverage.

Were you told that you would burn in hell for all eternity if you didnt buy those tic tac's?
Im sorry beglopty but in fairness your tic-tac analogy is a bit ridiculous! And btw you completely ignored the part of my post 'they didnt go in to it for the pay or career opportunities'......there is a distinct difference between me seeing the church for what it is (in fairness I was not dragged up in a particularly hardline rcc family) and someone being brainwashed into it.
I am not disputing wether you should feel sorry or not for them beglopty. Im not going to kid myself by thinking i could change your mind on that issue but, lets be honest here! Everyone who says they believe in a God wether its christianity, Jewish, RCC, or whatever has been brainwashed/deluded.
So then why is it so hard for you to believe that a man joining the priesthood (and generally young, impressionable and highly naive men at that) is nothing more than an extreme form of the above?

Zombrex

beglopty wrote: »

You would leave them to it because it is their choice. They have chosen to spend their life with god rather than get too close to any human. To change that mindset, you'd have to change their whole belief system.

Yes, that is the point.

That is precisely why it can be very difficult for a priest to simply stop being a priest because he is miserable.

beglopty wrote: »

A comparison to a plumber cannot be made because I'm talking about abstaining from relationships because of belief rather than just not finding them for whatever reason.

That wasn't my point.

My point was we don't simply abandon anyone else in society to their choices. If a plumber decides to mind his manipulative mother for 20 years rather than having girlfriends and getting married and after she dies finds himself isolated from society and lonely the Samaritans don't say "You idiot, that was your choice"

We don't view isolation and depress as punishment for the bad choices people make in any other area of society. Why should we view priests any different?

beglopty wrote: »

I have nothing against priests in the way that you insinuate, and don't like to see any human being suffer. However, I cannot feel sorry for a priest that stays isolated from humankind because of his beliefs just like I wouldn't feel sorry for a jehovas witness that dies for refusing blood.

I would, I would feel deeply sorry for them.

keppler

PeterIanStaker wrote: »

I really feel sorry for that man, I havent seen the programme, but just going on the above info, he might have been raised in a fire & brimstone home with a heaping on of guilt, and then despite his intellect, was unable to break away from it.

more than likely, like most people who tout crap like that he couldnt really give a logical reason as to why he believed what he did. It was a bit like watching a real life mr mackey..........ahhh masturbation's bad mmmkay.

He wasnt the only one on it.... there was another young girl (18yrs) seemed like a nice girl until the show cut to her kneeling while praying in an RCC church....they then interviewed her while in the church :rolleyes: regurgitating the same crap that the 40 year old virgin was (crap that was no doubt hammered into her by her parents).

I guess its easy to look at someone whos a grown adult and not feel sorry for them but when ya look at that 18yr old girl (who is clearly a work in progress) I really dont think its too hard to see how easily people are brainwashed at a young age

GO_Bear

keppler wrote: »

He wasnt the only one on it.... there was another young girl (18yrs) seemed like a nice girl until the show cut to her kneeling while praying in an RCC church....they then interviewed her while in the church :rolleyes: regurgitating the same crap that the 40 year old virgin was (crap that was no doubt hammered into her by her parents).

The bible even shows how crap a contraceptive Faith is !

beglopty

ColmDawson wrote: »

Did your parents enlist you as a tic tac eater shortly after you were born?
Did you attend a school/schools with a tic tac ethos for eight/fourteen years?
Did your parents bring you to tic tac worship every Sunday?

Your comparison displeases me.

No, but I was brought up catholic, l did do all of the above with jesus rather than mints. Do I see it as though I was brainwashed? No.

It wasn't a comparison, quite obviously. It was an example of how this word 'brainwashing' can be used to describe most things in everyday life. It can be used on either side of any argument and so is usually redundant.

GO_Bear wrote: »

I for one , welcome our new Tic Tac Overlords

Communion would certainly be tastier.

CerebralCortex

beglopty wrote: »

No, but I was brought up catholic, l did do all of the above with jesus rather than mints. Do I see it as though I was brainwashed? No.

It wasn't a comparison, quite obviously. It was an example of how this word 'brainwashing' can be used to describe most things in everyday life. It can be used on either side of any argument and so is usually redundant.

Definition of Brainwashing: the application of coercive techniques to change the values and beliefs, perceptions and judgments, and subsequent mindsets and behaviors of one or more people, usually for political, financial, personal, or religious purposes.

Definition of Coercion: The practice of forcing another party to behave in an involuntary manner (whether through action or inaction) by use of threats, intimidation, trickery, or some other form of pressure or force. Such actions are used as leverage, to force the victim to act in the desired way.

ColmDawson

beglopty wrote: »

It wasn't a comparison, quite obviously. It was an example of how this word 'brainwashing' can be used to describe most things in everyday life. It can be used on either side of any argument and so is usually redundant.

Only if you don't care what words mean and don't know how to construct a reasonable argument.