Urgent window advice

gaz wac

I just posted this in Consumer Issues but maybe it is better suited here, so I will get the other thread closed.

Hi

Sister got a bloke to give her a price on new windows. He said he needs a deposit of 2,500k ( windows c.6k), which she gave.

Windows are now a month late and he wants the balance before he puts them in! She wanted to give the balance when the job was finished and she checked the work was 100%. He wont deliver the windows now until he gets the cash!!

What can she do here ?

thanks

L driver

has she got a receipt for the deposit? window company usually 50% deposit and 50% post dated cheque. Is this a reputable firm? Do not pay balance until windows are fitted, 2.5k is not as bad as 6k. If nothing happening get the police.

braftery

There is not alot of trust in post celtic tiger Ireland is there ?!?

She has every right to cautious, but I assume that in the end she wants her new windows installed as much as the window supplier wants to get paid for his goods. So I think it is best to find a solution the is reasonable to both parties.

I am assuming that she is clear what she is getting for her money, (ie numbers of windows and doors, installation, uninstalling of old windows, disposal of old items or not !?, etc.

I suggest she do the following;

1. She go and inspect the finished windows at the suppiers premises. Count them and make sure they are what she expected.
2. Agree to pay for part of the balance (example €2,500) on the day the guys come to install.
3. Agree to give a cheque (post dated for 10 days) for the final balance (example €1,000) prior to the installation starting.
4. Provided she is happy with the installation then the window supplier will lodge his cheque in 14 days. if not the window supplier has a time period to sort things out or your sister can stop the cheque, until such time as he does sort out the issues.

Hopefully he will do a good professional job, trust will be restored, your sister will be really happy, tell him to rip up the 14 day post dated cheque and offer him full payment directly after the install.


As a point of information on this subject;

The reason that alot of sub-contractors that supply and fit want to be paid for all of the goods prior to installation is this;

The law in Ireland is very clear that the ownership of any item that is fixed to a piece of land or fixed to anything that is fixed to said land (ie a house) automatically passes to the land owner and that you can not excercise your right of retention on this material (ie remove it afterward if the bill is not). If you are unpaid for goods that are fixed to the house you must go to court and get a lean placed on the property in order to secure your debt.

Hence .. please pay me before I fix these lovely new goods to your building.

imitation

braftery wrote: »

The law in Ireland is very clear that the ownership of any item that is fixed to a piece of land or fixed to anything that is fixed to said land (ie a house) automatically passes to the land owner and that you can not excercise your right of retention on this material (ie remove it afterward if the bill is not). If you are unpaid for goods that are fixed to the house you must go to court and get a lean placed on the property in order to secure your debt.

Hence .. please pay me before I fix these lovely new goods to your building.

Yes, but the supplier is breaching his original agreement by the sounds of things, its usual to pay 50% upfront and 50% on satisfactory completion of the job. The fact hes a month late and now demanding it upfront is very suspicious.

gaz wac

Thanks lads,

Sent a PM to Mellor. Can a Mod merge this with

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=68930065&utm_source=notification&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=notify#post68930065

thanks

braftery

imitation wrote: »

Yes, but the supplier is breaching his original agreement by the sounds of things, its usual to pay 50% upfront and 50% on satisfactory completion of the job. The fact hes a month late and now demanding it upfront is very suspicious.

Is the supplier breaching his original agreement ?
What are the terms of the agreement ?
Is there any written agreement ?

I agree it is suspicious and I would be very wary, however the clients choices are simple;

1. Attempt to get the deposit back and buy windows elsewhere.

2. Endeavour to get the windows delivered and installed as originally planned.

I outlined a planned approach for someone that wants to take Route 2. There is no additional risk in my plan for either party.
Based on what happens at each step the plan may require alteration.

If the client decides that route 1 is preferred than I suggest they call a solictor.

tred

gaz wac wrote: »

I just posted this in Consumer Issues but maybe it is better suited here, so I will get the other thread closed.

Hi

Sister got a bloke to give her a price on new windows. He said he needs a deposit of 2,500k ( windows c.6k), which she gave.

Windows are now a month late and he wants the balance before he puts them in! She wanted to give the balance when the job was finished and she checked the work was 100%. He wont deliver the windows now until he gets the cash!!

What can she do here ?

thanks

Normal. I priced windows for a new build. 50 percent upfront, rest on install.
Id be wary of handing it over....

mendel

As someone currently struggling with a large window company over our windows I'd be very wary of handing over all the money.

We thankfully have only paid 50% and i reckon it is the only reason they are making any effort to sort out the mess.

maybe a compromise of go see the windows, pay another sum such as 2k get the windows to site and fitted and the balance on satisfactory installation. Offer a postdated cheque which can be cancelled if necessary.

Good luck with it

mickdw

Its a excellent idea for the OP to go and see the windows manufactured.

Mellor

Agreed.
I try one of the Con.Issues mods to pass the other thread here and i'll merge then.

martinn123

There may be another problem here which has been missed so far.

Lots of installers are buying windows from fabricators. The usual payment terms with the fabricator is cash on delivery. Now if he has used the 2.5K deposit, say to pay wages over the past weeks, and the fabricator won't deliver, without cash paid to driver, he cannot organise a delivery, especially if he has had any previous payment trouble with the fabricator.

If the job is priced at 6K assume the cost of the windows is 3K, so without 3K the windows will not be delivered.

There is only 3.5K left on the job which allows no room for compromise.

Sorry but this looks like a job where too big a deposit was paid, and not enough left for payment for windows and installation.

If you can find out who made the windows, speak to their Credit Control, a solution may be available as they have the windows made and little chance of payment.

Sorry for your trouble.

CBYR1983

Talk to your solicitor.

I had a crowd did the same thing to me last year, was only a new door but same principle, I persisted and they eventually showed up 2 months late, frame of door was the wrong colour.

They got new frame and came back a week later and fitted door. Seemed fine but since then I've noticed that the seal on the door is compromised, due to poor fitting, so door is not airtight, reducing all value from the installation. The company was gone within 3 months of me getting my door. All their phonelines were cut off. They no longer exist

My advice - get your deposit back and steer clear of these guys, I would be very surprised if they were around in years to come (given the way they are operating) to provide after sales service, and that can be very important on windows and doors, which generally come with a 10-year guarantee.

muffler

Surely there was a written contract signed by both parties?

braftery

muffler wrote: »

Surely there was a written contract signed by both parties?

In the other thread relating to this .. there is a post that explains there is only a reciept for the deposit, no written contract, no time frame, no payment terms.

braftery

I hate to be the one to say this but ...

Going to Solicitor is going to end up very messy and I dont think it will speed up the process of getting your windows or getting your money back.

If the supplier is not in financial difficulty

On what grounds can you claim breach of contract ?

There is no time frame
There are no payment terms.

All the supplier has to do is get a solicitor to write back stating this and then stating that given the current economic circumstance he had reason to doubt his clients ability to pay. this can go back and forth for weeks or months until you decide to take it to court .. where the judge will more than likely insist on some form of staged payment or at least proof that the client has the money and it is held in escrow for the supplier.

This deal can be made now directly with the supplier with no solicitors fees.

If the supplier is in financial difficulty

Your deposit is probably going to be used up in some part of the suppliers business ... and there may be no deposit paid to the window manufacturer for your goods. but if the windows are made .. then the manufacturer will want to sell them as they are no use to him otherwise. You might be able to do a deal with the source manufacturer to get the job complete for the outstanding balance on the job.

If your supplier is really close to bankruptcy, then he will run and hide from anyone that is shouting at him and by law he can not spend any money (on your windows or anything else) as it shows fraudulent preference to one creditor over another.

If you keep a cool head, move fast, go meet him and talk it out with him, he might come clean tell you the issues and you might just get your windows installed without getting caught up in a liquidation. where you may get no windows, if you are very lucky a few cent in the euro and this might take a couple of years to recover depending on the mess.

If you get no-where with the guy through a direct approach then action your solicitor.

All of the above I know from experience.

gaz wac

Hi

Thanks for the replies. Latest on this..he was meant to come yesterday but didnt turn up. Sister rang him and he said " without the 3.5k, i cant take the windows out of storage". She said its looks like your going out of business if you cant afford 3.5k ! but he just said he is waiting for 30k from another job and two other cheques bounced!! ( 2k deposit paid, 3.5 balance, so total of 5.5k for windows )

He said, if she is not going to pay in advance, she will have to wait till Monday as he will have cash then to release the windows.Considering she has heard a ton of excuses from him before ( one month delay ) i dont hold much hope !!

Think someone said about a contract? no contract, she did ask him for four previous customers and she went to their houses and was happy with his work. He was her prefered window man out of three! Just has a receipt for deposit paid.

Thanks again

braftery

He is definitely struggling ... but I dont know any business that is not struggling, except google !

Am I the only person that sees a small business struggling with cashflow, because his clients wont pay or cant pay and not some evil bastard that is going to run off with your sisters deposit ??

It appears he is no longer asking her for anymore money before he delivers and installs.

He has explained to her the cause of the delay, his cashflow problems.

He has given her a time frame when he can solve this problem.

Maybe I am the fool .. but if your sister is worried why not simply go take a look at the windows where they are stored.

Then your sister can decide if she wants to wait for the suppliers other customers to sort out thier debts and allow him to deliver and install her windows. Or work out a deal with him and get on with the job.

More importantly if the guy is in trouble and is close to bankruptcy .. all the more reason to check that the windows are there, to get them out of storage and fixed to your building before a liquidator is called in.

Gulliver

gaz wac wrote: »

Hi

Thanks for the replies. Latest on this..he was meant to come yesterday but didnt turn up. Sister rang him and he said " without the 3.5k, i cant take the windows out of storage". She said its looks like your going out of business if you cant afford 3.5k ! but he just said he is waiting for 30k from another job and two other cheques bounced!! ( 2k deposit paid, 3.5 balance, so total of 5.5k for windows )

He said, if she is not going to pay in advance, she will have to wait till Monday as he will have cash then to release the windows.Considering she has heard a ton of excuses from him before ( one month delay ) i dont hold much hope !!

Think someone said about a contract? no contract, she did ask him for four previous customers and she went to their houses and was happy with his work. He was her prefered window man out of three! Just has a receipt for deposit paid.

Thanks again

I'm in the middle of a build and I've heard this or variations of it from a few people. My advice for anyone starting out would be to bring the state of the economy up in conversation with suppliers during the quotation process and run a mile from anyone that reacts in a whiny, "they're all out to get me" way.

What I mean is, in my opinion a good business will either keep their financial problems to themselves or have the attitude "We had a few people not pay us, but we're still going".

If this guy can't raise the money to pay his suppliers, that's his problem. Passing it on to the end customer is just poor show. I assume he's been in business long enough to know how to manage money and deal with reticent suppliers. If the supplier is suddenly holding out on him, then he's on his way out of business and not paying them.

Don't give him any more money (in case he goes bust), but tell him that you (well, your sister) is able to pay, the money is waiting and the sooner he gets the windows installed, the sooner he'll get his post dated cheque. Tell him you'll even cut the post date to 1.5 weeks. In the meantime get them inspected. Use a hose (on the windows, not him... well maybe him) if you have to!

richardw001

sounds like a fairly unfortunate situation - to be honest - the only positive is that if this guy gave you good past work references that checked out - then at least you have some hope.

In terms of the hassle - hopefully when it comes to pay for the final job (fingers crossed when everything is completed) - he might give you a discount because of all the trouble/worry you have had ?

gaz wac

Hi,

Just as an update...promise after promise...he still has not turned up !!. He got his foreman to ring her to say that he is not turning up and when words got heated, he just passed phone over to the builder. "ahh ill come down next friday, im on a job now" ! She said that she is going to apply to small claims court for refund of deposit of 2k....he just said " do what you want" and hung up !!

How sucessfull is the small claims courts?

coolcougar07

obtain legal advice and ask guards. has she given deposit in cash or check? do not under any circumstance pay balance until jod is complete at worst offer another 25% on arrival and balance on completion sounds like a scam

CBYR1983

gaz wac wrote: »

Hi,

Just as an update...promise after promise...he still has not turned up !!. He got his foreman to ring her to say that he is not turning up and when words got heated, he just passed phone over to the builder. "ahh ill come down next friday, im on a job now" ! She said that she is going to apply to small claims court for refund of deposit of 2k....he just said " do what you want" and hung up !!

How sucessfull is the small claims courts?

Sounds like a model citizen. Type of guy you'd loan your life savings to, safe in the knowledge they'll be sitting there with interest when you call upon them.

Seriously, do you want to give this guy any more hard earned money? He's obviously a B****x. Who puts down the phone on a customer with the way things are.

What happens if the windows come and there are issues - do you think this guy will come back when you find a seal isn't working or water isn't draining? What if a unit cracks in the cold within a year - from your experience thusfar can you see this guy coming back to provide the guarantee I'm sure he told your sister he would provide.

Unfortunately these are the types of guys out there and your sister isn't the first to be stung.

There's guys I've employed in the past that now, with the benefit of hindsight, I wouldn't trust to turn on a tap.

Sorry, I've no experience of small claims court......

braftery

He is starting to sound like a bit of a pr*&k !

My understanding is the deposit was for €2.5k.

This will put her above limit of the small claims court.
She wont be allowed to seek to claim back only part of a payment.

I think she will need to go to the district court to make her claim.

Do 2 things;

1 Go to look at the windows wherever they are ?
If you dont know the location, find the window guy and make him bring you to see them.

2 Write to the window supplier and put in the letter, your understanding of the contract (every detail), the expected delivery date, all the dates and times of all the calls she made. This is critical in any case you might bring in the future. If he does not write back and refute your claims it will strengthen your case as it is the only written record of the contract exisiting between you. Then go see a solicitor.

I still think you are better to try and get your hands on the windows through any means and get them installed .. using the original supplier or another fitter ... I think the legal route will turn into a protracted and expensive nightmare.

Keep your eye on the prize !

Good Luck

gaz wac

Sorry lads, meant to update this thread but with holidays and show days !!

Cut a long story short, my bro in law and a garda friend went to see him and had words. Windows were put in last week. Didnt think we would ever see him, deposit or windows again !!

End of the day, even after putting in her research in, this happened. You just never know! thanks a million for all the advice.

Cheers

L driver

Don't want to blow me own trumpet:rolleyes: Read post no 2.:D