Why students should oppose the Croke Park Agreement

Permabear

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Tipp Man

donegalfella wrote: »

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Great post but it will never happen. It's far to easy to protest against the government, yet people are totally blind as to how the unions have lead to the economic ruin of this little island of ours

The "work" that the majority of lecturers do in 3rd level facilities is shameful considering their salary, the same rehashed sh1t year after year, many of them not even attending lectures regularly. Jobs for the boys environment, closed shop.

Fuhrer

Students should oppose it as it'll either be the Students or the PS getting a free ride.


Cant afford both anymore.

Eliot Rosewater

donegalfella wrote: »

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And the day that will happen will be the day hell freezes over!

The student march last week was to fight for two things: reduced college fees and increased college funding. I don't think it takes a mathematician to see the contradiction there.

In my opinion, Students' Unions are naturally predisposed to elect extreme individuals. If someone were to run a Students' Union campaign on the basis that he would negotiate and compromise with government he would be "immediately outbid by his competitors, who [would] produce something more splendidly popular". As Edmund Burke also said, "Moderation will be stigmatised as the virtue of cowards; and compromise as the prudence of traitors".

Students aren't interested in how the country or the economy actually runs; they're interested in fighting for divergent aims so that they will be satisfied at the expense of taxpayer, and reducing the student fees debate to mere sloganeering.

The point is that what you're proposing is that students sit down and rationally consider the actual effects of a policy on the world around him. In a culture of dogmatic extremes, at odds with Disraeli's university "of light, of liberty, and of learning", such prudent consideration will never take centre stage.

Nijmegen

Teachers at all levels have done a great PR job of linking their pay to performance in the classroom. They said very little about freezing prefabs until their pay was being cut. I didn't see them out marching on that point of order during the benchmarking years.

If you cut the number of teachers and increase a class size, you cause a degredation in education standards.

If you cut the pay of the teacher standing at the top of the class, do you cause a degredation in education standards?

No, not unless you put that teacher on the breadline. And I mean the breadline.

If you ran it properly, you'd think users (students) first, not special interests (unions) first.

Across the public sector we'd rather see education standards drop and people die in hospitals thanks to the ham fisted way of going about cuts than take on the unions and do a proper reform.

Dannyboy83

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/education/2010/1109/1224282950573.html?via=mr

The top 100 best-paid in education

Some of the numbers here are mind boggling.

The top 10 earn over €2.3 million between them.

Wolfe Tone

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

And the day that will happen will be the day hell freezes over!

The student march last week was to fight for two things: reduced college fees and increased college funding. I don't think it takes a mathematician to see the contradiction there.

I dare say students would be happy if more money was spent on useful things, rather than extreme wages, or people doing "research". Dont forget we have been raised on the idea that the way to solve a problem is to throw money at it.

In my opinion, Students' Unions are naturally predisposed to elect extreme individuals. If someone were to run a Students' Union campaign on the basis that he would negotiate and compromise with government he would be "immediately outbid by his competitors, who [would] produce something more splendidly popular". As Edmund Burke also said, "Moderation will be stigmatised as the virtue of cowards; and compromise as the prudence of traitors".

Hmm, you mean students are likely to vote for those who promise the best deal? You mean like how so many voted for FF?
Personally I dont have much faith in groups like the USI, hence I will be voting for my college to not become a part of that institution.

Students aren't interested in how the country or the economy actually runs; they're interested in fighting for divergent aims so that they will be satisfied at the expense of taxpayer, and reducing the student fees debate to mere sloganeering.

Really whipping out the generalizations today aren't we? I am certainly interested in how the country and economy runs. I am sure there are many more like me. No, what we are interested in is fighting against something which may result in people like myself having to drop out of college.

Poccington

Nijmegen wrote: »

Across the public sector we'd rather see education standards drop and people die in hospitals thanks to the ham fisted way of going about cuts than take on the unions and do a proper reform.

O rly?

Would you care to back up that statement with any kind of fact? Or have you just decided that the PS in general are opposed to reform and fully support the unions?

What about those of us in parts of the PS that doesn't have a union? Or those of us in parts of the PS where reform is happening at this very moment?

Permabear

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20Cent

More right wing daydreaming.
Unions turning against each other, not going to happen. Students got their lesson last week stand together or get a bat in the face.

Nijmegen

Poccington wrote: »

O rly?

Would you care to back up that statement with any kind of fact? Or have you just decided that the PS in general are opposed to reform and fully support the unions?

What about those of us in parts of the PS that doesn't have a union? Or those of us in parts of the PS where reform is happening at this very moment?

Calm down - I'm on record saying many times that I distinguish PS workers on average pay to the senior management and union leaders on a couple of hundred grand a piece.

Workers on the front line, for the most part, want to deliver. I know that. And it's hard to deliver their best in a dysfunctional organisation.

But look, the best way to reorganise when you need to cut your costs is not to rely on natural wastage and untargeted redundancy packages. You lose people where you need them and keep them where you don't.

You reorganise by saying "We had X. We now have Y. We need to deliver Z. How can we best move the deck chairs to do this?" You cannot achieve it if many of the deckchairs are nailed down and somebody comes along and randomly throws other ones away.

Wolfe Tone

donegalfella wrote: »

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The introduction of fees, or the upping of the reg fee.

Many students seem to think that we should fight cutbacks and/or spend more on education overall, and that will solve all our problems. This is a naive view.

Fight cutbacks in the wrong areas. What would be naive to think is that if the education budget is docked that the teachers, lecturers etc would be willing to give up part of their wages to maintain standards. They should though.

In fact, real non-capital public expenditure on education has increased significantly in Ireland over the past decade. The education budget almost tripled between 1999 and 2008, going from €3.3 billion to €9.3 billion. So where did all this extra money go? Largely toward making educators wealthier! As the article notes, over 75 percent of the education budget goes toward public-sector wages and pensions.

As such, the greatest beneficiaries of education spending have not been students themselves, but the unionized public-sector workers who teach them. More than three euros out of every four we spend on education go straight into their pockets.

No arguments here with that.

In short, we need to change how the education budget is distributed, so that less of it goes toward wages and pensions, and more of it goes toward infrastructure, facilities, and other things that actually benefit students. Schools and universities should not be run for the benefit of teachers and lecturers, but in Ireland they are.

Again no arguments here, I agree. If the budget can be arranged so that standards remain the same, no fees are introduced, go for it.

OhNoYouDidn't

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

In my opinion, Students' Unions are naturally predisposed to elect extreme individuals. If someone were to run a Students' Union campaign on the basis that he would negotiate and compromise with government he would be "immediately outbid by his competitors, who [would] produce something more splendidly popular". As Edmund Burke also said, "Moderation will be stigmatised as the virtue of cowards; and compromise as the prudence of traitors".

Despite the fact that the current USI president is a FF hack who pointedly failed to be militant last week? He is so militant UCD asked him to run again for president of UCD SU.

MagicSean

Tipp Man wrote: »

Great post but it will never happen. It's far to easy to protest against the government, yet people are totally blind as to how the unions have lead to the economic ruin of this little island of ours

I don't think they are blind any more. Unions have really shown their colours with their opposition to the bank time cut and the HSE redundancies.

MagicSean

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Despite the fact that the current USI president is a FF hack who pointedly failed to be militant last week? He is so militant UCD asked him to run again for president of UCD SU.

i wasn't aware being militant was part of the job of USI president.

del_c

Would be suspicous of a lot of this being jobs for the boys...but then again number 2 on the list has been swiped by an aussie college, so obviously in this case 260,000 is below his market value....unless he's moving there for the weather.

Hugh Brady for example has moved UCD over 120 places up the world rankings of unis, so maybe he's good value for money too....220.000 / 20 odd thousand students is 10€ per student per year for a CEO who does the business......220K would not be an excessive salary in the private sector for someboday with that kind of responsiblity...and I know if I was going through 4 years of college then I'd be happy to pay out an extra 100€ for a college that was in the top 100 as distinct from one in 221 place.

Top-Academics are well networked into the global market for skills, so it's a bit naive to say that we want a world education system regarded as world class, while at the same time not being prepared to shell out on top, proven figures who could earn their crust elsewhere.

I'm not saying that all of those on the list are being paid according to market value, just that Academia is a bit different to the rest of the public sector, in that skills are more transferrable and mobile than say, some bum-warmer at the department of social welfare or the HSE.



2 PROF FRANK GANNON

Director general, Science Foundation Ireland

€259,697

Gannon leaves SFI at the end of the year after being headhunted by the Queensland Institute of Medical Research in Brisbane. He made a major impact on national science policy, including at Cabinet level. Described as a key asset by Minister for Enterprise Batt O’Keeffe, his departure is regarded as a huge loss.

OhNoYouDidn't

Tipp Man wrote: »

Great post but it will never happen. It's far to easy to protest against the government, yet people are totally blind as to how the unions have lead to the economic ruin of this little island of ours

So you would rank the unions higher than the government, banks and property speculators in terms of economic damage caused?

OhNoYouDidn't

k_mac wrote: »

i wasn't aware being militant was part of the job of USI president.

Its not. But Elliot claimed otherwise.

At a higher level, this whole debate is the same old same old. Pick a few administrators and senior lecturers on high pay and then decide that the whole industry is a hive of commie spongers and then cut pay across the board, leading to a brain drain and lowering of standards.

There is a strange narrative going on that anyone who achieves in the public sphere is somehow dangerous. Yes wages need to be reviewed, and yes there are anomolies, but there is some serious venom out there.

How's about Donegal Fella posts the basic entry salary for a university lecturer for balance?

ArtSmart

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Its not. But Elliot claimed otherwise.

At a higher level, this whole debate is the same old same old. Pick a few administrators and senior lecturers on high pay and then decide that the whole industry is a hive of commie spongers and then cut pay across the board, leading to a brain drain and lowering of standards.

There is a strange narrative going on that anyone who achieves in the public sphere is somehow dangerous. Yes wages need to be reviewed, and yes there are anomolies, but there is some serious venom out there.

How's about Donegal Fella posts the basic entry salary for a university lecturer for balance?

OhyesYouDid.

darragh16

Its not like students unions do anything to save money or cut back...

http://www.ucdsu.ie/site/view/397/

enda1

Not very many of those mentioned are actually academics.
Like not everyone working in a bank is a banker.

Seems a lot of fuss over little.
I'm actually surprised at how little some of them earn and feel the packages should be increased.

*Awaits slaughter

Laminations

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Its not. But Elliot claimed otherwise.

At a higher level, this whole debate is the same old same old. Pick a few administrators and senior lecturers on high pay and then decide that the whole industry is a hive of commie spongers and then cut pay across the board, leading to a brain drain and lowering of standards.

There is a strange narrative going on that anyone who achieves in the public sphere is somehow dangerous. Yes wages need to be reviewed, and yes there are anomolies, but there is some serious venom out there.

How's about Donegal Fella posts the basic entry salary for a university lecturer for balance?

I'll take that one. €12,000 for entry level lecturers.

+1 on everything you've said. Reform is needed yes but I find it highly insulting to have someone who sits on their arse making money betting against Ireland (driving up the cost of our borrowing) lecturing others on what they should be paid. High paid individuals in every sector need to be looked at but pointing the finger at any sector and shouting 'attack' is broad brush generalising about what is in reality cushy conditions for a minority of workers in that sector.

RDM_83 again

Completely agree with above post
Also don't really understand Donegalfella's post, academics in general are left leaning is true, I very much doubt the group that article is referencing are, the USI oppose student fees (and I would have a feeling most lectures do too but thats only hearsay) but the irish university heads are strongly in favour of fees
http://www.gotocollege.ie/testOKeeffe_meets_university_heads_to_discuss_fees_issue.html
I don't understand the link.

Ps If he was talking about 2nd level education they'd be a point as teachers in ROI are overpaid for their working hours I know of very few jobs that offer the graduate entry level salaries that teaching those.
Though I feel that this issue will be confronted by teachers themselves with Older(employed and the "retired" employeed subs) vs younger (unemployed, underemployed and for recent grads never employed) split ie maybe younger teachers willrealise with a cut in salary and more teachers hired everybody but older teachers would be better off.

Tipp Man

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

So you would rank the unions higher than the government, banks and property speculators in terms of economic damage caused?

Yes I would (which obviously goes hand in hand with the weak government who bowed to their every pander)

If we hadn't seen ridiculous increases in public sector numbers and wages over the last decade then i believe its fair to say that the banks and speculators might not have got as far out of hand as they did

Think about it, if the public sector wages hadn't increased so dramatically then the demand for house purchases would have been less, or to put it more correctly what people could afford would be less. Property developers work on supply and demand, with property in such demand they were able to sell at extortinate prices which meant they bought development land at extortinate prices which required huge loans. It was a vicious circle which was largely fuelled by a large section of society getting huge pay increases

I think that no section of society benifited from the boom (and continues to enjoy those benifits which is the key) quite like the public sector

All only my opinion of course

Permabear

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emmms

darragh16 wrote: »

Its not like students unions do anything to save money or cut back...

http://www.ucdsu.ie/site/view/397/

I have resisted signing up and ranting on forums for years.

Has nobody else noticed that as per the link the UCD (just 1 college) gets 700,000 euro (say it again, 700,000 euro) capitation grant per year. by 2020 that is 7 million

Thats 700 grand to party , plan parties, meet, its a f**cking club, a club and we are paying them 700k per annum to oppose us. and they spent 3000euro on hoodies. thats a nurse for a month, but the SU is warm

Freedom of association, form any organisation you want, but why is the government paying for this.

Any USI bod thats responds to this to justify their position, remember you are of little or no value to society as a whole. source your income from elsewhere and you will learn your true value.

Department of education you can say no to this, what will happen if you do will UCD collapse- No. Will Education standards in irish society slip-no. Some printers will feel the pinch with less leaflets to print. please someone justify this to me. .please

Eliot Rosewater

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Its not. But Elliot claimed otherwise.

I wasn't using the word extreme in a violent context. I was using more as an antonym of moderate.

When I say the SU is extrme, I mean that the SU is not willing to negotiate or compromise. They are fighting for free fees (or for keeping fees low) and, no matter how many arguments you present them with (including, for instance, that grant money is more important than free fess for maintaining 3rd level accessibility), they will not budge from their position.

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Really whipping out the generalizations today aren't we? I am certainly interested in how the country and economy runs. I am sure there are many more like me. No, what we are interested in is fighting against something which may result in people like myself having to drop out of college.

When I said "students" I was refering to the sterotypical student who went marching in Dublin. I was also broadly referring to official student representatives who mirror the demands of the majority of politically active students.

This country has a budget deficit of something like €20 billion. The Government is spending far too much, and all area sof spending must come under consideration. But the students don't care about that whatsoever. One of their slogans was "no ifs, no buts, no education cuts."

OhNoYouDidn't

donegalfella wrote: »

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You demand a source off him and then list a load of unsourced numbers? You really couldn't make it up...

Assuming your figures are correct, the entry level lecturer salary is still below the average industrial earning.

University lecturers are probably the only genuinely mobile public sector employees. They can move to the private college sector or move abroad. This is the MARKET RATE for their services.

And here you are as a libertarian arguing the state should step in and disturb that clearing price.

Its beyond tedious by now DF...

OhNoYouDidn't

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

I wasn't using the word extreme in a violent context. I was using more as an antonym of moderate.

When I say the SU is extrme, I mean that the SU is not willing to negotiate or compromise. They are fighting for free fees (or for keeping fees low) and, no matter how many arguments you present them with (including, for instance, that grant money is more important than free fess for maintaining 3rd level accessibility), they will not budge from their position.

Then all associations, unions and lobby groups are extreme.

Having a negotiating position to defend something in the face of the impending bloodbath is not 'extremism'.

Such hyberbolic bull****

Laminations

donegalfella wrote: »

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You want pay slips? I've gone through it myself, in fact I'm still going through it, working my way up. We cant all sit on our arses trying to topple Ireland by speculating against our chances of recovery. They dont just hire you straight from getting your PhD into a full time permanent salaried lecturing position. All lecturers nowadays go through years of part time roll over contracts. I have worked in numerous institutions both public and private and you'll be happy to know I got paid 33% more in the private colleges than in the public universities.

Permabear

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Laminations

donegalfella wrote: »

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Then you need to take into account the steps one must go through before becoming an entry-level lecturer. Its not the same as an entry level accountant where you do your ACCAs and you are in the door.

Saying 'entry-level lecturer' without recognising all the previous work is like saying 'entry-level managing director' or 'entry-level Taoiseach', lots of lesser paid steps come before you reach these positions.