Stage Fare system

dfx-

My bus fare to the Central Bank is €2.20.
My bus fare out from the quays/Hawkins St to the stop across the road from above^ is €1.80.

I got a ticket on a bus last week into the city, paying €1.80 as drivers told me and I thought before was the correct fare. I look at my ticket, the stop it was valid to is High Street, two stops before the Central Bank.

How is that possible?

I think the driver has to manually set the current stage while on route - have often seen drivers on the 3 and 16 tapping in codes when going over the Royal Canal bridge in Drumcondra, among other places. I've often seen tickets issued with completely wrong destinations on them.

mikemac

I see my drivers update their machine manually at stops. Not sure if they push a next stage button or if it works off codes

It's manual anyway so with any human operated system, now and again you'll get quoted two different prices

I find the stage system fairly straightforward. Your bus stop should have a number on it and then look at the Dublin Bus display and it'll show the fare per stage so you need to check how many stages you are going.
If you know it once, you know it forever. Well until the next time fares are reviewed

AlekSmart

I find the stage system fairly straightforward. Your bus stop should have a number on it and then look at the Dublin Bus display and it'll show the fare per stage so you need to check how many stages you are going.
If you know it once, you know it forever.

The only problem,feelingstresed,is that whilst the Stops have all been newly tagged with an identifiying number the Stages have not been identified.

Whilst every Stage is a Stop,every Stop is NOT a Stage.

Since the company took the decision to remove Stage Identification from the network,Drivers have had to rely on their own knowledge and combined with the often ambiguous Timetable list.

It is,quite frankly a mess,and one which is needless and easily rectified if there was any managerial interest.

I have yet to discover why a company ostensibly operating a Fare-Stage system felt the need to remove the Markings Totally from the system and as a result encourage misfares as well as confrontation between Drivers and Passengers.

Karsini posts....

Have often seen drivers on the 3 and 16 tapping in codes when going over the Royal Canal bridge in Drumcondra, among other places. I've often seen tickets issued with completely wrong destinations on them.

Interesting one here Karsini,what you are seeing if heading Northbound is the Driver going from Stage 77 to Stage 78,yes correct, only one stop,as 77 is the Dorset St/North Circular Road junction...now your starter for 10,Karsini,where exactly is the corresponding stage 22 on the inbound leg...;)

dfx-

The ticket had the correct stop that I got on, so I presume he had adjusted it sufficiently approaching the stop. It has happened before that the stop on my ticket that I had boarded was a few stops beforehand, but not in this case.

Does the machine not operate by a button relating to the furthermost stop of each particular fare limit..so that the "to" stop is the last stop of that fare?

Don't get me wrong, I'll gladly only pay €1.80 if I have to

AlekSmart

Yep dfx-,The only thing you need to bear in mind is that if you board between stages you pay from the PRECEEDING Stage and if you alight between stages you pay to the FOLLOWING or succeeding Stage.

The worst case scenario is a passenger boarding and alighting between stages as it can cause confusion.

This is why the Stage Markings need to be Highly Visible to both Customers and Staff at the point of boarding or alighting...if we are going to persist in concealing them,perhaps it`s time for a Flat Fare instead.

dfx-

Huh?:D

Should the outbound fare not be the same then though?

Timetable information:

Dublin Bus 51B wrote:

75 25 Hawkins St.
74 26 Lord Edward St.
73 27 Thomas St. (Francis St.)
72 28 Thomas St. (Watling St.)
71 29 James St. (St. James's Hospital)
70 30 Old Kilmainham (Junction Brookfield Rd.)
69 31 Emmet Rd. (Kilmainham Cross)
68 32 Tyrconnell Rd. (Blacklion)
67 33 Naas Rd. (Canal Bridge)
66 34 Naas Rd. (Bluebell)
65 35 Naas Rd. (Robin Hood Rd.)

64 36 Naas Rd. (Long Mile Rd.)
63 37 Naas Rd. (Fox and Geese)
62 38 Naas Rd. (John Sisk and Sons)
61 39 Naas Rd. (Red Cow Inn)
60 40 Monastery Corner
59 41 Woodford Walk
58 42 Watery Lane (Riversdale)
57 43 Clondalkin Village
56 44 St. Ronan's Church (Junction Oldcastle Drive)
55 45 Grange Castle Business Park

foggy_lad

Maybe that flat fare is being worked towards by removing the stage markings?

KC61

dfx- wrote: »

Huh?:D

Should the outbound fare not be the same then though?

Timetable information:

Well where are you getting on to go to the city?

senordingdong

Karsini wrote: »

I think the driver has to manually set the current stage while on route - have often seen drivers on the 3 and 16 tapping in codes when going over the Royal Canal bridge in Drumcondra, among other places. I've often seen tickets issued with completely wrong destinations on them.

Pretty much.
They are supposed to adjust the machine at every stop so it can properly outline how far your fare will take you.

CIE

foggy_lad wrote: »

Maybe that flat fare is being worked towards by removing the stage markings?

Flat fare? Sounds like an impossible dream, doesn't it...?

The stage system is a distorted version of the "fare zone" system. I often wondered if a zone system would be sufficient, with one zone fare up as far as the "outer suburban" border (which has shifted over the years) and a higher fare for crossing that border.

Also, the "under 16" fare has been abused for as long as I can remember. Other systems make it "under 12" for a child's fare (age is more distinguishable), or charge adult fares once a child exceeds the height of the fare box mechanism.

AlekSmart

They are supposed to adjust the machine at every STAGE so it can properly outline how far your fare will take you.

Amended that Senordingdong,to reflect the actuality...only problem arises when either the Driver and/or Customer have differing perceptions of where the STAGE actually is....ref Stage 22,Drumcondra Station Inbound

dfx-

KC61 wrote: »

Well where are you getting on to go to the city?

At the Red Cow..

No mention of High Street..

L1011

AlekSmart wrote: »

Since the company took the decision to remove Stage Identification from the network,Drivers have had to rely on their own knowledge and combined with the often ambiguous Timetable list.

From snooping on the Wayfarer, I'm nearly sure there's still an "O'Briens Supermarket" stage on the 66 route. This can cause some issues as drivers don't know where this used to be.

Prize* for anyone who tells me when O'Briens ceased to be.





*may not actually exist.

AlekSmart

AlekSmart wrote: »

now your starter for 10,Karsini,where exactly is the corresponding stage 22 on the inbound leg...;)

Nah, didn't know that one off the top of my head.

AlekSmart

Nah, didn't know that one off the top of my head.

Don`t fret Karsini,you`ll struggle to find anybody who does know exactly where it is

foggy_lad

MYOB wrote: »

From snooping on the Wayfarer, I'm nearly sure there's still an "O'Briens Supermarket" stage on the 66 route. This can cause some issues as drivers don't know where this used to be.

Prize* for anyone who tells me when O'Briens ceased to be.





*may not actually exist.

They sold to Quinnsworth around 1983 iirc

L1011

foggy_lad wrote: »

They sold to Quinnsworth around 1983 iirc

Bingo. The stop name itself has changed on timetables and the stop Westbound has moved slightly towards town, but not the stage name!

Chris_5339762

I still think its hilarious that you tell the bus driver how much you want to pay

KC61

AlekSmart wrote: »

Amended that Senordingdong,to reflect the actuality...only problem arises when either the Driver and/or Customer have differing perceptions of where the STAGE actually is....ref Stage 22,Drumcondra Station Inbound

Well Alek that stage was renamed when the station reopened.

It was previously Drumcondra Road Lower (Clonliffe Road).

Therefore stage 22 is (exactly) the stop before Clonliffe Road inbound.

Do I get a prize?

KC61

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

I still think its hilarious that you tell the bus driver how much you want to pay

Officially you don't.

You are supposed to tell the driver where you are going and he/she will issue the appropriate ticket.

KC61

dfx- wrote: »

My bus fare to the Central Bank is €2.20.
My bus fare out from the quays/Hawkins St to the stop across the road from above^ is €1.80.

I got a ticket on a bus last week into the city, paying €1.80 as drivers told me and I thought before was the correct fare. I look at my ticket, the stop it was valid to is High Street, two stops before the Central Bank.

How is that possible?

This is an oddity of the fare stage system.

Red Cow Hotel inbound is stage 61. 13 stages from there is Lord Edward Street - that is the boundary of the €1.80 fare. Beyond that point is €2.20.

Outbound I seem to remember that a stop is missing on the Naas Road since the construction of the M50 roundabout and the LUAS. From memory the last outbound stop before the M50 is at Sisks and then the next stop is on Monastery Road.

As a result the last outbound stop before the M50 is stage 38 at Sisks which is 13 stages from the terminus (€1.80). Stage 39 outbound is a "notional" stage as the stop does not exist.

There are a few examples of this on the network such as route 76a on the Westlink Toll bridge, and routes 70/270 on the Blanchardstown bypass.

dfx-

I think it may be more confusing than that..

With the old RC Roundabout, there was a pointless stop at John Sisk and then a stop at the Red Cow Inn itself. Inbound, there was a stop across the road from the Red Cow Inn itself and one outside the Coca Cola bottling plant (i.e. JohnSisk equivalent)

Then they took away the Red Cow Inn stops as you say and this simplified it...until now - they have they have rebuilt new Red Cow Inn stops now and taken away the shelter at the bottling plant and John Sisk, so John Sisk stops does not exist. The new stops are almost halfway between the two old stops (incidentally months on, still no timetable information, but I digress ). So where there was two stops, there is one inbetween.

There's also a new stop on the slipway of the bridge crossing over from the N7 to the Monastery Road that I don't know where it fits into the system.

So they've taken away and built new stops, but the stages remain the same and confusion abounds.

Given that these stops are on a fare boundary, it would be nice if it was clearer

AlekSmart

Therefore stage 22 is (exactly) the stop before Clonliffe Road inbound.

Do I get a prize?

Hmmmmm.....almost...KC61....almost.

The stop you mention was indeed Stage 22 for as long as I remember,however one morning fadó fadó,the Marking disappeared and miraculously reappeared on the,then new shelter,adjacent to Fitzroy Avenue (Next Stop Down).

The current Timetable location remains the suitably enigmatic,Drumcondra Rail Station as opposed to your Clonliffe Road,which at least is specific...:mad:

I made enquiries in the Garage and was present during a phone call by the then admin manager to a personage in Central who confirmed that the Stage had been altered.

Now it is a significant alteration in terms of the 3 stage to An Lár fare but currently the stage remains un-marked.

I have been unsuccessfully attempting,for some time now, to have the Stage marking placed upon the shelter so that customers can,if they wish save themselves 45c a pop by virtue of that short-stroll.....Information is power...except if you operate to our standards,when it becomes an intolerable burden !

Colm R

So basically as I understand it, the Stage Fare System is perfect and the fairest system, but only if things never ever change. Ever.

So why don't they just give up, draw some lines on the map and call them zones. Then you can move your bus stops all you want.

devnull

The new style bus shelter style poster timetables, which were the last type of bus timetables to have stage points listed, now have had them removed and they are just plain timetables, with no stages listed.

AlekSmart

It`s worse than that Devnull,the new new post Network Direct improved Shelter Sheets actually have the Bus Stop Number on them...as in Stop No: 1234....however they could`nt bring themselves to type those few extra bits...as in Stage xx....

It just defies logic,belief,gravity or whatever that ANY corporate entity could be so blasé about imparting information to it`s customers.....

devnull

AlekSmart wrote: »

It`s worse than that Devnull,the new new post Network Direct improved Shelter Sheets actually have the Bus Stop Number on them...as in Stop No: 1234....however they could`nt bring themselves to type those few extra bits...as in Stage xx....

The one that I described on Dorset Street outbound has the timetables for all the correct routes, but the map, the example fares, and the text on the poster other than the timetables references the 46A and the 145 all the time and even has a map of the N11 corridor on the new shelter sheets with texts saying consult the timetables on the right then look at the map to see which timetable fits.

The big problem is the map is for a totally different area that none of the buses stopping there actually serve, and none of the routes on the map actually serve the stop in question. It's ridicolous that there is also the most common journey examples and what fares they are for the 145 and the 46A on this poster, when it doesn't serve there.

It's pure laziness and lack of proof reading. The stop across the road to city center also mentions some routes that do not stop there with timetables, whilst leaving the 40's off despite they all stop there.

Carawaystick

AlekSmart wrote: »

Hmmmmm.....almost...KC61....almost.

The stop you mention was indeed Stage 22 for as long as I remember,however one morning fadó fadó,the Marking disappeared and miraculously reappeared on the,then new shelter,adjacent to Fitzroy Avenue (Next Stop Down).

The current Timetable location remains the suitably enigmatic,Drumcondra Rail Station as opposed to your Clonliffe Road,which at least is specific...:mad:

In fairness the train station is specific, Clonliffe road is a lot longer. Didn't the 51 go down it ( maybe it still does)

It's just there is no bus stop there Southbound...!

AlekSmart

In fairness the train station is specific, Clonliffe road is a lot longer.

Well...kinda,sorta specific,Carawaystick or at least specific heading North,where Stage 78 is plonked directly outside the Stations (Only) door.

However on t`udder side of the Drumcondra Road it`s a horse of a different colour as the original Stage 22 (KC61`s ) is at the Drumcondra Rd/Clonliffe Rd junction whilst the Actual Stage 22 is further South at the junction with Fitzroy Avenue.

Now y`see BOTH of these Stops can be made to fit the Timetable`s description of Drumcondra Station...but only ONE of them can be correct...

Simple innit....:rolleyes:

foggy_lad

AlekSmart wrote: »

It`s worse than that Devnull,the new new post Network Direct improved Shelter Sheets actually have the Bus Stop Number on them...as in Stop No: 1234....however they could`nt bring themselves to type those few extra bits...as in Stage xx....

It just defies logic,belief,gravity or whatever that ANY corporate entity could be so blasé about imparting information to it`s customers.....

some stops just have this small plaque with the stop number on it including something in braille and absolutley nothing else to identify the stop or where it is or what if any busses stop there!

well done on keeping customers informed dublin bus!

KD345

foggy_lad wrote: »

some stops just have this small plaque with the stop number on it including something in braille and absolutley nothing else to identify the stop or where it is or what if any busses stop there!

well done on keeping customers informed dublin bus!

These brackets/codes will be key to passengers using the new real time information, which will offer much more useful information than the current timetables. This stop number can be used with mobile phones to reveal stop location, buses stopping there, and a list of real time arrivals to that stop.

foggy_lad

KD345 wrote: »

These brackets/codes will be key to passengers using the new real time information, which will offer much more useful information than the current timetables. This stop number can be used with mobile phones to reveal stop location, buses stopping there, and a list of real time arrivals to that stop.

That is great but no use if you don't know where you are or what road you are on. And a road or landmark is a lot easier to remember than some number etched into a bus stop!

KD345

foggy_lad wrote: »

That is great but no use if you don't know where you are or what road you are on. And a road or landmark is a lot easier to remember than some number etched into a bus stop!

I don't quite understand the problem. I see the bus stop as having two roles, to tell passengers which route stops there and what time the bus is due.

It is not the function of a bus stop to tell you what road you're on, and the use of local landmarks has caused problems in the past. While it might be great to see "opposite O'Neill's Supermarket" on a bus stop, the problem occurs when the supermarket closes, or roadworks force the stop to move. Suddenly the information is out of date. Also, using local landmarks causes confusion for tourists unfamiliar with the area, for example, for years the 15 group of timetables listed "Swan Centre" as a point on the timetable, but gave no mention of Rathmines.

Due to the fact that there are thousands of bus stop poles across the city, it's not possible to have a timetable at every stop. This is where the real time system comes into play. No matter where you are, you just need to key this 4 digit code into your phone as a text, and possibly a web service/app, to find out the arrival of the next bus to that stop. You don't need to know what road you're on, you just need the code.

foggy_lad

KD345 wrote: »

I don't quite understand the problem. I see the bus stop as having two roles, to tell passengers which route stops there and what time the bus is due.

It is not the function of a bus stop to tell you what road you're on, and the use of local landmarks has caused problems in the past. While it might be great to see "opposite O'Neill's Supermarket" on a bus stop, the problem occurs when the supermarket closes, or roadworks force the stop to move. Suddenly the information is out of date. Also, using local landmarks causes confusion for tourists unfamiliar with the area, for example, for years the 15 group of timetables listed "Swan Centre" as a point on the timetable, but gave no mention of Rathmines.

Due to the fact that there are thousands of bus stop poles across the city, it's not possible to have a timetable at every stop. This is where the real time system comes into play. No matter where you are, you just need to key this 4 digit code into your phone as a text, and possibly a web service/app, to find out the arrival of the next bus to that stop. You don't need to know what road you're on, you just need the code.

so there is no timetable or other information on the stop and you dont carry a mobile phone? and those texts are not cheap and will probably work as well as the fantastic e-voting machines.

KC61

foggy_lad wrote: »

so there is no timetable or other information on the stop and you dont carry a mobile phone? and those texts are not cheap and will probably work as well as the fantastic e-voting machines.

For goodness sakes are you ever happy with anything? Do you have to keep knocking everything? (apologies to mods but this constant barrage of negativity is really difficult to stomach sometimes).

This system has from what I have read been working very well with the on-street displays.

We are in a very difficult place as a nation - in case you've not noticed we are almost bankrupt. Expecting displays at every stop is unrealistic. Having the ability to check either via a mobile phone or online, or (at busier stops) using on-street displays is I think a realistic goal.

This is one thing that IS working!

foggy_lad

KC61 wrote: »

For goodness sakes are you ever happy with anything? Do you have to keep knocking everything? (apologies to mods but this constant barrage of negativity is really difficult to stomach sometimes).

This system has from what I have read been working very well with the on-street displays.

We are in a very difficult place as a nation - in case you've not noticed we are almost bankrupt. Expecting displays at every stop is unrealistic. Having the ability to check either via a mobile phone or online, or (at busier stops) using on-street displays is I think a realistic goal.

This is one thing that IS working!

fair enough it would be impossibly expensive to have displays at every stop but having a plate with timetable attached is not so expensive that it couldnt be done at many more stops.

KC61

Having a plate that gives you access to real time information is probably far more relevant than a theoretical timeable.

KD345

foggy_lad wrote: »

so there is no timetable or other information on the stop and you dont carry a mobile phone? and those texts are not cheap and will probably work as well as the fantastic e-voting machines.

As I said, it would be an expensive project to have a timetable on every stop, and even then, the usual argument pops up, that it's useless having a timetable on a bus stop telling you what time your bus left the other side of the city. This new project is changing all that.

There will still be timetable displays on bus shelters, and still be carousels on busy stops, but now, every stop in Dublin - whether it's the busy 16A bus stop on Georges Street, or a remote stop on the 44 at Stepaside you will have access to real time information on where exactly your bus is. I personally don't know anybody who doesn't own a mobile phone, so the majority of passengers will have the ability to access the information. With the increase of smart phone usage I would guess that there will be many apps offering this information too. Also, 1000 real time displays at busy stops.

The fact is Foggylad, you don't know how well this system will work, but you are happy to knock it before it even begins. This has nothing to do with e-voting machines, so using that stick to bash real time information for buses is just silly. It's already being tested at various points around Dublin and it works just perfect. Perhaps you should go see it in use for yourself, and then come back with an opinion.

sleepyman

KD345 wrote: »

As I said, it would be an expensive project to have a timetable on every stop, and even then, the usual argument pops up, that it's useless having a timetable on a bus stop telling you what time your bus left the other side of the city. This new project is changing all that.

There will still be timetable displays on bus shelters, and still be carousels on busy stops, but now, every stop in Dublin - whether it's the busy 16A bus stop on Georges Street, or a remote stop on the 44 at Stepaside you will have access to real time information on where exactly your bus is. I personally don't know anybody who doesn't own a mobile phone, so the majority of passengers will have the ability to access the information. With the increase of smart phone usage I would guess that there will be many apps offering this information too. Also, 1000 real time displays at busy stops.

The fact is Foggylad, you don't know how well this system will work, but you are happy to knock it before it even begins. This has nothing to do with e-voting machines, so using that stick to bash real time information for buses is just silly. It's already being tested at various points around Dublin and it works just perfect. Perhaps you should go see it in use for yourself, and then come back with an opinion.

I think it's a good system.Do you know if this will be rolled out in Limerick or Cork?

KC61

sleepyman wrote: »

I think it's a good system.Do you know if this will be rolled out in Limerick or Cork?

Yes there are plans for it to also be rolled out in the provincial cities.

dfx-

Woohoo...to make things so much clearer, a rare bus user friend of mine today was charged €2.20 outbound for the journey, not €1.80 as I and previous drivers had advised..

Clear as mud!:pac:

CIE

Were there ever plans in earnest to scrap this stage system and replace it with either a zone system or a flat fare system?

KC61

CIE wrote: »

Were there ever plans in earnest to scrap this stage system and replace it with either a zone system or a flat fare system?

Dublin Bus wanted to do so at the time of the Euro changeover but the Department of Transport refused them permission to do so.

The fare structure is completely dictated by the Department.

foggy_lad

KC61 wrote: »

Dublin Bus wanted to do so at the time of the Euro changeover but the Department of Transport refused them permission to do so.

The fare structure is completely dictated by the Department.

the stage fare system had its day with conductors on busses but with one person operation they should have switched to a zone system with the blessing of the department. all they would need then is different coloured bus stops to indicate the zones.

Our man in Havana

Ah but that would be doing the job right.