Did Oliver Cromwell have the right idea about politicians?

Judgement Day

I'm not sure whether this should be in the History & Heritage forum or here so please move as you see fit.

Oliver Cromwell's speech at the dissolution of the Long Parliament in 1653 must surely go down as one of the most honest speeches ever delivered in the British House of Commons and in my opinion it could equally be delivered to our own politicans in Dail Eireann today. I'm a democrat at heart but wouldn't you like to see our own crowd turned out in the same way and perhaps be disbarred from standing for election for say 5-10 years. I'm not suggesting some sort of military government just the removal of the the present incumbents of the Dail (all of them) and their replacement by new and, theoretically, untainted TDs. That said I can't see any current head of the Irish Army doing the necessary - now if Michael Collins was still around things might have come to this.

A version of Oliver Cromwell's speech below and it's certainly as relevant today

---

It is high time for me to put an end to your sitting in this place, which you have dishonored by your contempt of all virtue, and defiled by your practice of every vice; ye are a factious crew, and enemies to all good government; ye are a pack of mercenary wretches, and would like Esau sell your country for a mess of pottage, and like Judas betray your God for a few pieces of money.

Is there a single virtue now remaining amongst you? Is there one vice you do not possess? Ye have no more religion than my horse; gold is your God; which of you have not barter'd your conscience for bribes? Is there a man amongst you that has the least care for the good of the Commonwealth?

Ye sordid prostitutes have you not defil'd this sacred place, and turn'd the Lord's temple into a den of thieves, by your immoral principles and wicked practices? Ye are grown intolerably odious to the whole nation; you were deputed here by the people to get grievances redress'd, are yourselves gone! So! Take away that shining bauble there, and lock up the doors.

In the name of God, go!

At Cromwell's signal, Lieutenant-Colonel Worsley marched in with the musketeers to drive out the MPs. Major-General Harrison is said to have personally pulled the Speaker of the House from his chair. After the Members had departed, the doors of the Parliament House were sealed and a wit pinned up a notice outside reading: "This House is to be let: now unfurnished."

donaghs

Have to agree with a lot of what you said (not necessarily Cromwell).

On one hand, we are responsible for the poor quality of our politicians as we elect them. But on the other hand, I think we can do better - and the current system won't fix things. I'm all for disbarring our current political class, and letting some fresh faces have a go. Can't see how it could be done legally though.

You often get other reform ideas posted here, like Ministers not being elected from a constituency - to help reduce local cronyism, etc. Fintan O'Tooles new book, beyond the waffle, has some interesting practical ideas.

the_syco

donaghs wrote: »

I'm all for disbarring our current political class, and letting some fresh faces have a go.

I see it as a pointless exercise. The new ones will be as corrupt as the old ones, as they can. Until new laws are put in place, I can't see how new people will fix an old problem.

Corsendonk

donaghs wrote: »

. I'm all for disbarring our current political class, and letting some fresh faces have a go. Can't see how it could be done legally though.

Practically impossible too, you might bar the politician but the relative will pop up or the wife or husband to neatly slot in. And we are a great country for voting for the family name before considering if they be any good!

DrumSteve

Cromwell is still a bastard.

PatsytheNazi

Judgement Day wrote: »

I'm not sure whether this should be in the History & Heritage forum or here so please move as you see fit.

Oliver Cromwell's speech at the dissolution of the Long Parliament in 1653 must surely go down as one of the most honest speeches ever delivered in the British House of Commons and in my opinion it could equally be delivered to our own politicans in Dail Eireann today. I'm a democrat at heart but wouldn't you like to see our own crowd turned out in the same way and perhaps be disbarred from standing for election for say 5-10 years. I'm not suggesting some sort of military government just the removal of the the present incumbents of the Dail (all of them) and their replacement by new and, theoretically, untainted TDs. That said I can't see any current head of the Irish Army doing the necessary - now if Michael Collins was still around things might have come to this.

A version of Oliver Cromwell's speech below and it's certainly as relevant today

---

It is high time for me to put an end to your sitting in this place, which you have dishonored by your contempt of all virtue, and defiled by your practice of every vice; ye are a factious crew, and enemies to all good government; ye are a pack of mercenary wretches, and would like Esau sell your country for a mess of pottage, and like Judas betray your God for a few pieces of money.

Is there a single virtue now remaining amongst you? Is there one vice you do not possess? Ye have no more religion than my horse; gold is your God; which of you have not barter'd your conscience for bribes? Is there a man amongst you that has the least care for the good of the Commonwealth?

Ye sordid prostitutes have you not defil'd this sacred place, and turn'd the Lord's temple into a den of thieves, by your immoral principles and wicked practices? Ye are grown intolerably odious to the whole nation; you were deputed here by the people to get grievances redress'd, are yourselves gone! So! Take away that shining bauble there, and lock up the doors.

In the name of God, go!

At Cromwell's signal, Lieutenant-Colonel Worsley marched in with the musketeers to drive out the MPs. Major-General Harrison is said to have personally pulled the Speaker of the House from his chair. After the Members had departed, the doors of the Parliament House were sealed and a wit pinned up a notice outside reading: "This House is to be let: now unfurnished."

Interesting. If some SFer proposed similiar i.e. a military putsch, you'd be one of the very first on denouncing it and saying it was proof that the SF were a bunch of tyrannical dictators underneath it all !!!!!

I think the proof of Cromwell's rule was shown by the people of England who 3 years after his death dug up his corpse to give him a public hanging and then the body was thrown into a pit, while his severed head was displayed on a pole for the public to sneer at in London. Says it all.

recedite

Lets not forget that Cromwell founded a Republic long before we had one here, but his numerous references to god in that speech are a giveaway for the trouble that was to come. Religious zealots always bring trouble.

PatsytheNazi

recedite wrote: »

Lets not forget that Cromwell founded a Republic long before we had one here, but his numerous references to god in that speech are a giveaway for the trouble that was to come. Religious zealots always bring trouble.

He declared a 'Republic' a bit like today's Iran declares it's a republic :rolleyes: Not exactly democratic or tolerant in both cases I think most people would agree. Now their's a bright idea for the OP, maybe we should be like Iran......

Happy Monday

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Interesting. If some SFer proposed similiar i.e. a military putsch, you'd be one of the very first on denouncing it and saying it was proof that the SF were a bunch to tyrannical dictators underneath it all !!!!!

I think the proof of Cromwell's rule was shown by the people of England who 3 years after his death dug up his corpse to give him a public hanging and then the body was thrown into a pit, while his severed head was displayed on a pole for the public to sneer at in London. Says it all.

It was the son of the Charles 1 - who himself was beheaded by Cromwell somes years before - who dug him up and put his severed head on display.
Not the English people. Cromwell - despite his actions in Ireland and Scotland - is still regarded as one of England's greatest ever leaders.

bmaxi

donaghs wrote: »

Have to agree with a lot of what you said (not necessarily Cromwell).

On one hand, we are responsible for the poor quality of our politicians as we elect them. But on the other hand, I think we can do better - and the current system won't fix things. I'm all for disbarring our current political class, and letting some fresh faces have a go. Can't see how it could be done legally though.

You often get other reform ideas posted here, like Ministers not being elected from a constituency - to help reduce local cronyism, etc. Fintan O'Tooles new book, beyond the waffle, has some interesting practical ideas.

I don't necessarily agree that the electorate are responsible for the poor quality of politicians, that responsibility lies with the political parties. The high cost of running for election means many potentially good public representatives are discouraged, the alternative for them is to join a party where they are governed by the whip.
The strategy, of FF in particular it appears, is to parachute "yes men" in to constituencies. Local candidates within the party, who show any tendency to want to buck the system will be ignored, as candidates need to be approved by Head Office. This ensures the executive of FF will get their way and the public, even if muppets are running for the other parties, have Hobson's choice.

PatsytheNazi

Happy Monday wrote: »

It was the son of the Charles 1 - who himself was beheaded by Cromwell somes years before - who dug him up and put his severed head on display.
Not the English people. Cromwell - despite his actions in Ireland and Scotland - is still regarded as one of England's greatest ever leaders.

Well congrats to Charles II. Stalin is regarded by some as as one of Russia/USSR's greatest ever leaders. But then their's always going to be a few looneys in the world isn't there.

flutered

as some one who have been anti dff for years, one who no one listened to, one who was laughed at, one who was told i was wrong, that the dff would never behave as they always did, i now have a smile on my face, my wish of having them exposed before my death has been fulfilled, all i need now is to have them banished to hell or spike island,

PatsytheNazi

bmaxi wrote: »

I don't necessarily agree that the electorate are responsible for the poor quality of politicians, that responsibility lies with the political parties. The high cost of running for election means many potentially good public representatives are discouraged, the alternative for them is to join a party where they are governed by the whip.
The strategy, of FF in particular it appears, is to parachute "yes men" in to constituencies. Local candidates within the party, who show any tendency to want to buck the system will be ignored, as candidates need to be approved by Head Office. This ensures the executive of FF will get their way and the public, even if muppets are running for the other parties, have Hobson's choice.

As far as I'm concerned, the absoulute crisis we are in can be traced back to the vegtables returning Haughey's gang back in the early 80's despite their balatant corruption and cronyism. Those such as Sean Doherty in Roscommon, Flynn in Mayo, Ellis in Leitrim, McSharry in Sligo, Ray Burke and many others around the country.

donaghs

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Interesting. If some SFer proposed similiar i.e. a military putsch, you'd be one of the very first on denouncing it and saying it was proof that the SF were a bunch to tyrannical dictators underneath it all !!!!!

I think the proof of Cromwell's rule was shown by the people of England who 3 years after his death dug up his corpse to give him a public hanging and then the body was thrown into a pit, while his severed head was displayed on a pole for the public to sneer at in London. Says it all.

I think people want change, but prefer the status quo to a putsch, because of the unpredictable nature of revolutions, e.g. leading to something worse like a dictatorship. Cromwell is a good example of this.

Also, off -topic: despite becoming unpopular relatively quickly, and the monarchy being restored - he is held in a certain high-regard by many left and liberals in England for his role in overturning the monarchy, and increasing the role of the elected parliament versus the monarchy (who actually had a vote is another debate).

People see the "English Revolution" as being bigger than Ireland, or Cromwell. You'll see references to it in the oddest places, e.g. the 60s politcal group in the US "The Diggers", or crusty bands like "New Model Army" and "The Levellers".

Conservative/Tory traditions are traced back to the Cavaliers, and Liberal/Whig and Labour/Socialists back to the Roundheads (and more radical affiliated movements).

Judgement Day

Happy Monday wrote: »

It was the son of the Charles 1 - who himself was beheaded by Cromwell somes years before - who dug him up and put his severed head on display.
Not the English people. Cromwell - despite his actions in Ireland and Scotland - is still regarded as one of England's greatest ever leaders.

Not by me! Despite my having impeccable Cromwellian lineage I regard his participation in the crime of "Regicide" as particularly offensive - it just wasn't cricket. There's a few in Ireland who should be dug and similarly treated - it was even suggested by a Mayo County Councillor some years ago in the case of the late Todd "CIE" Andrews.

PatsytheNazi

donaghs wrote: »

I think people want change, be prefer the status quo to a putsch, because of the unpredictable nature of revolutions, e.g. leading to something worse like a dictatorship. Cromwell is a good example of this.

Also, off -topic: despite becoming unpopular relatively quickly, and the monarchy being restored - he is held in a certain high-regard by many left and liberals in England for his role in overturning the monarchy, and increasing the role of the elected parliament versus the monarchy (who actually had a vote is another debate).

People see the "English Revolution" as being bigger than Ireland, or Cromwell. You'll see references to it in the oddest places, e.g. the 60s politcal group in the US "The Diggers", or crusty bands like "New Model Army" and "The Levellers".

Yes, like I said their's always the sheep/looney factor to consider. Some regard Haughey as a hero and point to him setting up the IFSC, getting medical cards for people not entitled to them etc, etc.

Happy Monday

Judgement Day wrote: »

Not by me! Despite my having impeccable Cromwellian lineage I regard his participation in the crime of "Regicide" as particularly offensive - it just wasn't cricket. There's a few in Ireland who should be dug and similarly treated - it was even suggested by a Mayo County Councillor some years ago in the case of the late Todd "CIE" Andrews.

Following the defeat of the Royalists they regrouped and launched a second unsuccessful attempt against Cromwell and Fairfax. It became clear to Cromwell that the King would have to be taken out the equation so to speak to quell his followers. That was the rationale for killing him. Cromwell's legacy - as a poster has pointed out here - was to establish the primacy of parliament over monarchy. His actions created the basis for the current constitutional monarchy in the UK today. And as a result he is remembered favourably by many for that.

mikemac

Happy Monday wrote: »

It was the son of the Charles 1 - who himself was beheaded by Cromwell somes years before - who dug him up and put his severed head on display.

He also had the lawyers who convicted his father taken out and executed.
BBC did a fantastic documentary on the fate of these lawyers, saw it back in 2005. Going to look it up again

This film was blasted by critics for being inaccurate but I loved it, Tim Roth was scary as Cromwell
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_Kill_a_King
Worth a watch, it's about as accurate as Michael Collins was but you watch films to be entertained. It never claimed to be a documentary

interlocked

Major-General Harrison is said to have personally pulled the Speaker of the House from his chair

I went out to Charing Cross, to see Major General Harrison hanged, drawn, and quartered; which was done there, he looking as cheerful as any man could do in that condition. He was presently cut down, and his head and heart shown to the people, at which there was great shouts of joy. It is said, that he said that he was sure to come shortly at the right hand of Christ to judge them that now had judged him; and that his wife do expect his coming again. Thus it was my chance to see the King beheaded at Whitehall, and to see the first blood shed in revenge for the blood of the King at Charing Cross.

Samuel Pepys 13/10/1660

Oops.

Judgement Day

Great post interlocked - I think that I'll go back to the drawing board with my coup plans.

recedite

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

He declared a 'Republic' a bit like today's Iran declares it's a republic :rolleyes: Not exactly democratic or tolerant in both cases I think most people would agree ..

As I said...religious zealots and their "revolutions"

bmaxi

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

As far as I'm concerned, the absoulute crisis we are in can be traced back to the vegtables returning Haughey's gang back in the early 80's despite their balatant corruption and cronyism. Those such as Sean Doherty in Roscommon, Flynn in Mayo, Ellis in Leitrim, McSharry in Sligo, Ray Burke and many others around the country.

I would be the first to agree there are those out there with the mindset, never, ever, vote for a Blueshirt even if it guarantees recovery. Your rogues gallery is evident of the quality of ally Charles J wanted to surround himself with. Cowen has done the same and the next Taoiseach will as well.
My point is that the electorate are left with little real choice when supporting political parties.

OS119

bmaxi wrote: »

My point is that the electorate are left with little real choice when supporting political parties.

i disagree - centralised political parties dominate elections because electorates continue to vote for whatever monkey wears the right coloured rosette.

parish pump politics trumps all - and thats only because thats the formula that the electorate shows the political class is the winning formula. Ireland consistantly votes for the guy who says 'for every €1 of tax you pay, i'll bring €1.50 back' - these are swindlers, but Ireland votes for them time and again, and then bitches when the maths catch up.

how many times does the man with the big idea beat the man with favours to dish out, a hospital to keep open despite all logic, and who'se granddaddy fought with the other 1.8 million men in the GPO?

Irelands electorate is either too stupid to realise that you can't get 10lb of **** out of a 5lb bag, sufficiently venal that they're fine with someone else losing their services if it means keeping yours, or is so utterly short-sighted that they refuse to notice that 'clientism' is the hallmark of the banana republic - or does notice, and just don't care as long as they get an allowance for not getting an allowance, dole money 3 times that of Irelands nearest neighbour, or ensuring that the ridiculously ill-placed and inefficient barracks in the town stays open because it brings money to the parish pump.

Ireland has the politicians and government it deserves - because it continuously elects them.

LarrytheLantern

A relative of our family held a high level rank in Cromwell's New Model army.

My parents would ask us not to mention this, but I was always quite proud of it. I continue to be even more proud of this little bit of our family history with each passing day in this banana Republic.

Cromwell had the right idea, and it's no accident he's still held in such high regard by parliamentarians throughout the civilized world

KeithAFC

Since Cromwell was a protestant, he just went on a rampage because of the slaughter of the protestant people in 1641.

Sleepy

A large part of me believes the easiest way out of the current mess is to walk into the Dail guns blazing (though, to be fair, you'd need to time it well to find them all there!).

String them all up, declare the "New Republic of Ireland" and ignore demands for payment of the "Old Republic"s debts.

Of course, the solution falls down as unworkable when you consider the calibre of people likely to step forward in the next elections so you'd need a benevolant and wise dictator to take control for at least a few months to bring in the new constitution outlining strict new rules for the houses of parliament and governance.

And, were such a thing as a benevolant and wise dictator in existence, a parliament would be a step backwards as a means of running a country.

Overheal

Sleepy wrote: »

String them all up, declare the "New Republic of Ireland" and ignore demands for payment of the "Old Republic"s debts.

That'll work..

LarrytheLantern

"Ye are grown intolerably odious to the whole nation!

357 years later and the penny is only starting to drop with people around here.
Democracy for slow-learners.
Eh?:o

bmaxi

OS119 wrote: »

i disagree - centralised political parties dominate elections because electorates continue to vote for whatever monkey wears the right coloured rosette.

parish pump politics trumps all - and thats only because thats the formula that the electorate shows the political class is the winning formula. Ireland consistantly votes for the guy who says 'for every €1 of tax you pay, i'll bring €1.50 back' - these are swindlers, but Ireland votes for them time and again, and then bitches when the maths catch up.

how many times does the man with the big idea beat the man with favours to dish out, a hospital to keep open despite all logic, and who'se granddaddy fought with the other 1.8 million men in the GPO?

Irelands electorate is either too stupid to realise that you can't get 10lb of **** out of a 5lb bag, sufficiently venal that they're fine with someone else losing their services if it means keeping yours, or is so utterly short-sighted that they refuse to notice that 'clientism' is the hallmark of the banana republic - or does notice, and just don't care as long as they get an allowance for not getting an allowance, dole money 3 times that of Irelands nearest neighbour, or ensuring that the ridiculously ill-placed and inefficient barracks in the town stays open because it brings money to the parish pump.

Ireland has the politicians and government it deserves - because it continuously elects them.

How does this differ from what I have been saying?

OS119

bmaxi wrote: »

How does this differ from what I have been saying?

i got the impression that you were saying that the beholden to the party 'yes men' and gombeenism of the Irish political scene was something that 'just was' as if it were a law of physics, and not a consequence of voting patterns by generations of Irish voters. i was suggesting that Irish voters had consistantly had the choice that you say they don't have, they just choose not to exercise it.

recedite

OS119 wrote: »

because electorates continue to vote for whatever monkey wears the right coloured rosette.

Good quote... LOL

donaghs

Sleepy wrote: »

String them all up, declare the "New Republic of Ireland" and ignore demands for payment of the "Old Republic"s debts.

Overheal wrote: »

That'll work..

If we continue down the road we are going, with more people losing their jobs and finding themselves financially on the rack, I can definitely see a lot more people considering it to be at least worth a try.

bmaxi

OS119 wrote: »

i got the impression that you were saying that the beholden to the party 'yes men' and gombeenism of the Irish political scene was something that 'just was' as if it were a law of physics, and not a consequence of voting patterns by generations of Irish voters. i was suggesting that Irish voters had consistantly had the choice that you say they don't have, they just choose not to exercise it.

I said, lots of people will not vote for FG simply because they are FG.
I will not give NO.1 to FG because the local T.D. is part of a political dynasty, quite apart from the fact he is a gob****e.
The essence of my point is, the ongoing FF strategy seems to be that the local Cumann selection does not automatically become the candidate. This, some may argue, is not such a bad thing and this argument is reinforced by the likes of J.H. Rea. If FF were genuinely interested in the good of the country , they would then pick an outstanding candidate and we could have no quibble, but they will pick a toady and devote all their resources to having him elected. The FF faithful are, effectively, left with Hobson's choice, do they vote for the FF toady or vote for the opposition. No matter what you or I may think of this blind allegiance to political parties, it goes on and will take generations to change. This latest effort at carpetbagging however, can have, IMO, more sinister implications, you only have to look at the current Politburo to see what the future holds.
I believe there are genuine people at the grass roots in all the political parties but it is the executives of these parties which have become, quite literally, a class apart.

Sleepy

We'd be blocked from borrowing in the medium term but without debt repayments to be made and no responsibility to bail out failed banks etc. the necessity to balance the books would be an easier task.

djpbarry

Happy Monday wrote: »

Cromwell - despite his actions in Ireland and Scotland - is still regarded as one of England's greatest ever leaders.

Absolutely. I live next to Cromwell Hospital. Just off Cromwell Road. Not far from the Cromwell Crown Hotel...

Rabble Rabble

donaghs wrote: »

People see the "English Revolution" as being bigger than Ireland, or Cromwell. You'll see references to it in the oddest places, e.g. the 60s politcal group in the US "The Diggers", or crusty bands like "New Model Army" and "The Levellers".

It was good for English rights, alright, where such rights mean bashing the heads of the people who are not part of your sectarian and ethnic tribe. The difference between democracy and liberty was summed up by Franklin who ( I paraphrase) said that democracy is two foxes and a hen discussing the best way to eat the hen, and liberty was the hen running away.

The English Revolution was a triumph of sectarian majoritarianism over liberty. The liberal King guaranteed some modicum of religious tolerance for the sizeable Catholic minority ( English and Irish), the sectarian parliament of religious nuts who overthrew the King denied those rights.

KeithAFC

Oliver Cromwell was a great leader. Many historians will agree with this.

murphaph

KeithAFC wrote: »

Oliver Cromwell was a great leader. Many historians will agree with this.

He was also a republican :D

KeithAFC

murphaph wrote: »

He was also a republican :D

Nobody is perfect.

Rabble Rabble

KeithAFC wrote: »

Oliver Cromwell was a great leader. Many historians will agree with this.

Hitler was a great leader, and had he won the war many historians would agree.

Being Irish I am not that impressed by Cromwell's claim to fame. A sectarian parliament, a petty dictatorship, and the removal of irish people from their land. I can only be thankful his army in Ireland was more incompetent than the Wehrmacht, or I might not be here.

KeithAFC

Rabble Rabble wrote: »

Hitler was a great leader, and had he won the war many historians would agree.

Being Irish I am not that impressed by Cromwell's claim to fame. A sectarian parliament, a petty dictatorship, and the removal of irish people from their land. I can only be thankful his army in Ireland was more incompetent than the Wehrmacht, or I might not be here.

He didn't like the 1641 massacre to protestants in Ulster. He was religious you have to remember.

#15

KeithAFC wrote: »

Oliver Cromwell was a great leader. Many historians will agree with this.

The English people of the day didn't really agree though. Didn't take too long until they wanted the monarchy back.

maxxie

KeithAFC wrote: »

Oliver Cromwell was a great leader. Many historians will agree with this.

He was an evil bastard that commited heinous crimes!

You dont have to like EVERYTHING protestant! We get it!

Overheal

donaghs wrote: »

If we continue down the road we are going, with more people losing their jobs and finding themselves financially on the rack, I can definitely see a lot more people considering it to be at least worth a try.

I don't think it has any basis in reality though. But ask an economist what might happen if Ireland just told the world to fcuk off. Even african nations don't appear able to just 'absolve themselves' of their debts, even as skewed as those debts are. I really don't think it's a case of "Sorry guys, I don't wanna play pretend anymore"

Rebelheart

KeithAFC wrote: »

He didn't like the 1641 massacre to protestants in Ulster. He was religious you have to remember.

And what were mere "protestants" doing in Ulster in 1641? Or did you mean land-grabbing British colonial settlers who had dispossessed the natives and were occupying Irish land? I suggest you meant the latter and, hey presto, your entire argument collapses.

KeithAFC

Rebelheart wrote: »

And what were mere "protestants" doing in Ulster in 1641? Or did you mean land-grabbing British colonial settlers who had dispossessed the natives and were occupying Irish land? I suggest you meant the latter and, hey presto, your entire argument collapses.

Not true. Many people who came from the lowlands of scotland lived with the native Irish and even took over land which was used by no one.


1641 was a major step in the protestant psyche, which lasts to this day.