House has no alarm- I have a ton of questions

irishsaintme

I live in a terraced house-there used to be a alarm here but it stopped working years ago-the people who lived here before us used it. My house has a front and back door, 5 large windows in the downstairs and 4 large windows in the upstairs. We have a eircom phone line for house phone and wireless broadband through the dsl router but we dont have eircom phonewatch installed. I want to get a alarm for the house installed-budget is max 1000 euro.

Not sure what features im looking for so im open to all suggestions.

Though I have a few questions-

1. What are the advantages and disadvantages of both wired and wireless alarms?

2. Do alarms need to use the eircom phone line to function or can a alarm work without a phone line?

3. Will a wireless alarm interfere with a wireless router? At the moment i use a 2.4Ghz netgear wireless modem to access the eircom dsl line for broadband.

4. How messy are the wires in a wired alarm-ive got a ton of furniture and stuff blocking direct access to the indoor sides of the house wall-can wires be fitted on the outside of the house or is that not safe?

5. There seems to be a consensus in this forum that gsm dialers are insecure because that can be blocked-but what is a gsm dialler-is the when the alarm texts or rings a self monitored mobile phone?

Sorry for the long post but I want to make sure I do this right

irishsaintme

Hello hello is anyone there?

altor

irishsaintme wrote: »

I live in a terraced house-there used to be a alarm here but it stopped working years ago-the people who lived here before us used it. My house has a front and back door, 5 large windows in the downstairs and 4 large windows in the upstairs. We have a eircom phone line for house phone and wireless broadband through the dsl router but we dont have eircom phonewatch installed. I want to get a alarm for the house installed-budget is max 1000 euro.

Not sure what features im looking for so im open to all suggestions.

If there was an alarm installed before then maybe it could be repaired. If not if all the cables in the house plus the sensors, external bell could be reused in a upgrade. This would be cheaper than getting a whole new system installed. An upgrade would cost €400 if all was working.

irishsaintme wrote: »

Though I have a few questions-

1. What are the advantages and disadvantages of both wired and wireless alarms?

The advantages of a wired system is no replacing of batteries. As with regard how secure one is over the other, they are both secure. Wire or wire free system have to conform to the EN50131 standard.

irishsaintme wrote: »

2. Do alarms need to use the eircom phone line to function or can a alarm work without a phone line?

No, any alarm will work as a stand alone alarm.

irishsaintme wrote: »

3. Will a wireless alarm interfere with a wireless router? At the moment i use a 2.4Ghz netgear wireless modem to access the eircom dsl line for broadband.

No, it wont interfere with your wire less network and the network wont interfere with a wire free system.

irishsaintme wrote: »

4. How messy are the wires in a wired alarm-ive got a ton of furniture and stuff blocking direct access to the indoor sides of the house wall-can wires be fitted on the outside of the house or is that not safe?

Wire free would be the way to go if you dont want new cables to all your windows and doors. Surface cables would be what your left with unless you can bury them in the walls. All cables for an alarm system have to be protected. Wires fitted outside would not be advisable as the cables would be out side the protected area.

irishsaintme wrote: »

5. There seems to be a consensus in this forum that gsm dialers are insecure because that can be blocked-but what is a gsm dialler-is the when the alarm texts or rings a self monitored mobile phone?

Yes they can be blocked. I have not come across 1 house that a blocker has being used on. Blockers have being used on commercial premises but at the end of the day a well protected phone line is the most secure but even that can be got at from a man hole. The GSM is like having a mobile phone built into your panel. It uses the GSM network. If you use the GSM made by the manufacturer of most panels they will give you remote access to the alarm for arming/disarming plus text notification of the alarm activating.

irishsaintme wrote: »

Sorry for the long post but I want to make sure I do this right

Thats no problem, if you have any more questions you will get all the answers you need here

moondrizzle

I have no alarm either so I can't answer your questions. The situation in my home is simply that the house is NEVER empty at night. We have little window alarms, and a dog. That seems to do the trick

altor

moondrizzle wrote: »

I have no alarm either so I can't answer your questions. The situation in my home is simply that the house is NEVER empty at night. We have little window alarms, and a dog. That seems to do the trick

There are as many homes broken into when the house is occupied as when no one is home.

moondrizzle

altor wrote: »

There are as many homes broken into when the house is occupied as when no one is home.

Hence the window alarms and the dog. If so much as a hedgehog steps into my garden the dog goes ape**** and wakes everyone. I'd say we're at as much risk as anyone else who does have a proper alarm system.

altor

moondrizzle wrote: »

Hence the window alarms and the dog. If so much as a hedgehog steps into my garden the dog goes ape**** and wakes everyone. I'd say we're at as much risk as anyone else who does have a proper alarm system.

Having an alarm does not mean that your home wont be broken into, same with having a dog. All we can do is try deter would be intruders as best we can.

KoolKid

Back on topic to the OPs questions please.

altor

Yes sir

Pablod

Just a quick post on my current setup with Eircom Phonewatch.

Have an eircom phonewatch alarm (wireless)
Not sure how much it costs nowdays - I got mine about 4 years ago and it was roughly €1500, now all I have to pay is the monthly monitoring fee of €20

One benefit of this is that it will get you roughly 15-20% discount on your Home insurance (depending on insurer) as it is a monitored alarm.
Also it has a 48hr batttery pack in case of power failure

I also have Eircom broadband with wireless router and there is no interference anywhere in the house

The only downside I have is that it has to use the eircom landline (so theres line rental)
I looked into a GSM box based on what i've found - these are meant to be a bit more secure and faster dialling, as dsl lines can be cut on Power failures.

But again based on quotes i've got - GSM boxes cost €150 - €250 to get installed

thats my 2cents

KoolKid

Pablod wrote: »

Just a quick post on my current setup with Eircom Phonewatch.

Have an eircom phonewatch alarm (wireless)
Not sure how much it costs nowdays - I got mine about 4 years ago and it was roughly €1500, now all I have to pay is the monthly monitoring fee of €20

A good price if that includes a maintenance contract that covers call outs. A lot of the time call outs will be extra.
If a full maintenance contract is not included its too expensive.

Pablod wrote: »

One benefit of this is that it will get you roughly 15-20% discount on your Home insurance (depending on insurer) as it is a monitored alarm.

Check your premium very carefully here. If you policy states the system is up to EN50131 then it is a requirement that the system is serviced every year, you may have to pay for this service thefore cancelling out any discount. Also if you miss a service it could render a policy null & void in the event of a claim. A big risk for a small discount.

Pablod wrote: »

I looked into a GSM box based on what i've found - these are meant to be a bit more secure and faster dialling, as dsl lines can be cut on Power failures.

GSM diallers are,at present, much less secure than a standard phone line.
A power cut does not affect a standard telephone line.
It will affect UPCs telephone line.

Pablod

Hi Koolkid,

Yes sorry thats what I meant it wouldn't work over a UPC line

My insurance policy does state that the alarm must be up to EN50131 and monitored

The €20 a month monitering covers I think two standard service call-outs a year (but not including the cost for parts if required)

Cheers

altor

Pablod wrote: »

Hi Koolkid,

Yes sorry thats what I meant it wouldn't work over a UPC line

My insurance policy does state that the alarm must be up to EN50131 and monitored

The €20 a month monitering covers I think two standard service call-outs a year (but not including the cost for parts if required)

Cheers

Do you get your two services every year ?

irishsaintme

altor wrote: »

The advantages of a wired system is no replacing of batteries. As with regard how secure one is over the other, they are both secure. Wire or wire free system have to conform to the EN50131 standard.


No, any alarm will work as a stand alone alarm.


No, it wont interfere with your wire less network and the network wont interfere with a wire free system.

Wire free would be the way to go if you dont want new cables to all your windows and doors. Surface cables would be what your left with unless you can bury them in the walls. All cables for an alarm system have to be protected. Wires fitted outside would not be advisable as the cables would be out side the protected area.

Yes they can be blocked. I have not come across 1 house that a blocker has being used on. Blockers have being used on commercial premises but at the end of the day a well protected phone line is the most secure but even that can be got at from a man hole. The GSM is like having a mobile phone built into your panel. It uses the GSM network. If you use the GSM made by the manufacturer of most panels they will give you remote access to the alarm for arming/disarming plus text notification of the alarm activating.

Would the batteries in a wireless alarm be easy to replace? are they expensive?

What is this EN50131 standard-some sort of quality assurance mark?

Ideally i want the alarm to be monitored by someone else whom will call the guards if the alarm is set off. I imagine i will have to pay for this so how much does monitoring cost generally?

If i decide to cancel paying for someone else for monitoring is it possible to adapt the alarm for self monitoring-getting a text on my mobile etc or would i need to get a new different alarm?

For a wireless alarm to not cause interference i assume it would have to be on a different frequency other than 2.4Ghz as the 2.4Ghz would get interference from wireless routers, microwaves and uncorded landline phones. Can someone tell me what frequency wireless alarms work on?

I think i will get a wireless alarm-im thinking of covering the front and back door, 5 large windows downstairs and 4 large windows upstairs. My main reason for going wireless is that its less messy i assume-what exactly is placed upon each 'zone' as it were,ie eg what sets off the alarm on the front door if someone tries to kick it down?

What models for wireless alarms are good? scanning this forum the europlex signet and hkc securewave seems to get good reviews-are these alarms worth it?

If gsm diallers are so insecure why are they still being sold?

So its safer to have the alarm go through the eircom landline? i already have to pay line rental for eircom so will i have to pay extra to use the line for the alarm? will eircom object to me using the eircom line with a different alarm and installer other than eircom phonewatch?


Sorry for the giant bloc of text-i cant seem to get multi-quote to work for some reason

KoolKid

irishsaintme wrote: »

Would the batteries in a wireless alarm be easy to replace? are they expensive?

Easy enough, but by changing them yourself you void the EN50131 certification,
Prices vary from €3-€7 - €10 each fitted

irishsaintme wrote: »

What is this EN50131 standard-some sort of quality assurance mark?

A little bit more than that.
It is a legal requirement to employ a PSA licenced installer. Only a licenced installer can certify a system to EN50131.

irishsaintme wrote: »

Ideally i want the alarm to be monitored by someone else whom will call the guards if the alarm is set off. I imagine i will have to pay for this so how much does monitoring cost generally?

For new monitored system to get Garda response they must use alarm verification technology. Basically this means the activation of 2 seperate alarm zones. Panic/Duress alarms are excluded & get instant Garda response.
Monitoring with service & maintenance varies. Shop around & see whats being offered, also beware of what is covered.Some companies will only cover 1 or 2 callouts & charge you dearly for anything above that.
The best option is to look for all callouts & labour covered for all maintenance calls. On a domestic property this should be around €300 per year.
If callouts are limited expect to pay less.

irishsaintme wrote: »

If i decide to cancel paying for someone else for monitoring is it possible to adapt the alarm for self monitoring-getting a text on my mobile etc or would i need to get a new different alarm?

It would depend on the system you have & your phone provider.
Some diallers like SigNET & HKC can also be set to text from your landline. This is only possible with Vodafone or Eircom.
Astec 63D would need a panel replacment to 63DV to self monitor.

irishsaintme wrote: »

For a wireless alarm to not cause interference i assume it would have to be on a different frequency other than 2.4Ghz as the 2.4Ghz would get interference from wireless routers, microwaves and uncorded landline phones. Can someone tell me what frequency wireless alarms work on?

Interference of this type is not an issue . Newer wireless systems use 868MHz.

irishsaintme wrote: »

What models for wireless alarms are good? scanning this forum the europlex signet and hkc securewave seems to get good reviews-are these alarms worth it?

In my opinion yes.
If you want something cheaper & more basic look at the Visonic Powermax.

irishsaintme wrote: »

If gsm diallers are so insecure why are they still being sold?

There is lots of insecure security solutions being sold...
Its only a matter of time before the insurance companies adapt. I would say eventually they will be removed from the standard. The threat is still relatively new. These things take time.

irishsaintme wrote: »

So its safer to have the alarm go through the eircom landline? i already have to pay line rental for eircom so will i have to pay extra to use the line for the alarm? will eircom object to me using the eircom line with a different alarm and installer other than eircom phonewatch?

Yes,No & No
Remember you can also use UPC or VOIP to monitor your alarm. But these methods should be used with a back up power supply.

irishsaintme

For a wireless alarm to be installed how imposing is it on windows and doors? The wife is nagging me to replace the windows and doors first with new ones before we get the new alarm installed. But can the reverse be done as well-ie install new alarm and then install new windows and doors?

How much does the initial installation excluding the alarm cost generally? I have a feeling im going to left short of change after 1000euro :pac:

Jnealon

You could your alarm installed for less than 1k. There are a few companies offering alarms with 8 windows and 2 doors for less than €800. I think they use the risco wisdom kit which is very reliable.
The cost of 2 call outs to remove and fit the sensors and you will still have change

drBill

koolkid wrote: »

GSM diallers are,at present, much less secure than a standard phone line.
A power cut does not affect a standard telephone line.
It will affect UPCs telephone line.

Why would a GSM dialler be less secure than a standard phone line? There are so many ways of cutting off a land line - in most cases if it's not tacked to the outside wall of your house, it's accessible in a cabinet on the wall, or in a manhole on the pavement outside, or hanging from poles on the lane up to your house, etc. Any grunt can just cut the cable if he wants. This was done in my workplace once where they simply opened the telecom eireann manhole outside the office door and took a hacksaw to the cable. I even remember somewhere in Cork a few years ago where some thugs burnt down a phone exchange so that they could do a few houses in the area.

Unless your GSM dialler is not covered by the backup battery the best way to disable it is to either smash/disconnect it, or jam it somehow but not every grunt who breaks into houses will have the kit to jam GSM signals and if your perimeter has shock sensors there's a good chance that it will have transmitted successfully before they reach it.

Or at least that's my opinion, but I'm no security expert and I'd be interested to know if I've gotten it wrong as I was considering adding a GSM dialler to my own system!

KoolKid

A land line is monitored by the alarm. The external box can also be alarmed to protect against tampering. Either way the line or equipment had to be physically tampered with.
GSM jammers are freely available online, they are cheap and they can be very discreet.In some cases they even come with a remote control.
Our monitoring station will not take any GSM connection without a disclaimer from the customer stating they have been made aware of the risks.

altor

irishsaintme wrote: »

For a wireless alarm to be installed how imposing is it on windows and doors?

All depends on the system installed but generally wire free sensors are bigger than the wired equivalent.

irishsaintme wrote: »

The wife is nagging me to replace the windows and doors first with new ones before we get the new alarm installed. But can the reverse be done as well-ie install new alarm and then install new windows and doors?

Yes it can. With a wire free system changing windows and doors is very simple as its only a matter of taken the sensor off and putting it back on the new window and door.

irishsaintme wrote: »

How much does the initial installation excluding the alarm cost generally? I have a feeling im going to left short of change after 1000euro:pac:

It all depends on what you need covered in the house, best advice is to shop around and get yourself a few quotes.

campers

drBill wrote: »

Why would a GSM dialler be less secure than a standard phone line? There are so many ways of cutting off a land line - in most cases if it's not tacked to the outside wall of your house, it's accessible in a cabinet on the wall, or in a manhole on the pavement outside, or hanging from poles on the lane up to your house, etc.

I'd like to see someone answer this point as well.

We're researching alarms and monitoring for a rural house at the min.
Even my elderly non-tech mother is smart enough to know that her phone line is tacked to the gable end wall of our house and easily interfered with.

So what's the bigger evil? An obviously low-hanging phone line, or a jammable GSM?

Do monitored landlines send "keep alive" pulses back to the monitoring centre, or is the line silent until an activation? Obviously the former makes a landline option more attractive.

KoolKid

Generally landlines will only send test call once a day at most.
The phoneline going up the was is accessible , but it still need to by physically tampered with. With a GSM jammer it can be even in your pocket when you approach the property. A lot less obvious & a lot easier.
There have been cases where they have been left on site to prevent alarm calls been made afterwards.
The Opinion in the industry is that GSM is less secure than a land line & Radio is more secure than a land line.

altor

campers wrote: »

I'd like to see someone answer this point as well.

We're researching alarms and monitoring for a rural house at the min.
Even my elderly non-tech mother is smart enough to know that her phone line is tacked to the gable end wall of our house and easily interfered with.

So what's the bigger evil? An obviously low-hanging phone line, or a jammable GSM?

Do monitored landlines send "keep alive" pulses back to the monitoring centre, or is the line silent until an activation? Obviously the former makes a landline option more attractive.

No, The land line only communicates with the monitoring station once every 24 hours. It can be increased but you will pay extra for this. Smart monitoring have a new device coming out in January/February which will use both the phone line plus GPRS. It will have automatic polling with the monitoring station. The new device knows the difference between the GPRS signal being blocked as opposed to it being lost so if one line of communication has being tampered with the monitoring station will know about it.

irishsaintme

altor wrote: »

No, The land line only communicates with the monitoring station once every 24 hours. It can be increased but you will pay extra for this. Smart monitoring have a new device coming out in January/February which will use both the phone line plus GPRS. It will have automatic polling with the monitoring station. The new device knows the difference between the GPRS signal being blocked as opposed to it being lost so if one line of communication has being tampered with the monitoring station will know about it.

What is Smart monitoring-are they a company that install alarms or provide only monitoring-where can i find more details? How much would having the 'heart beat' of the alarm being always monitored cost?

irishsaintme

Im thinking of getting the signet 100 http://www.europlex-signet.com/downloads.php# as its supposed to ideal for consumer homes yes?

I want the signet 100 to provides alerts via the eircom phone and also via gsm (i want to receive texts alerts on multiple mobile phones). Is this possible?

Can all the sensors on the doors and windows be all wireless only, not physical electrical lines?

Jnealon

irishsaintme wrote: »

What is Smart monitoring-are they a company that install alarms or provide only monitoring-where can i find more details? How much would having the 'heart beat' of the alarm being always monitored cost?

Smart monitoring are a dual path monitoring solution, nothing new here.
It uses gsm/GPRS and your PSTN line. The unit is polled every few minutes to make sure that both lines of communication are working and have not been tampered with.
Google dualcom to find out more

Jnealon

irishsaintme wrote: »

Im thinking of getting the signet 100 http://www.europlex-signet.com/downloads.php# as its supposed to ideal for consumer homes yes?

I want the signet 100 to provides alerts via the eircom phone and also via gsm (i want to receive texts alerts on multiple mobile phones). Is this possible?

Can all the sensors on the doors and windows be all wireless only, not physical electrical lines?

Good choice, yes and yes

irishsaintme

Jnealon wrote: »

Smart monitoring are a dual path monitoring solution, nothing new here.
It uses gsm/GPRS and your PSTN line. The unit is polled every few minutes to make sure that both lines of communication are working and have not been tampered with.
Google dualcom to find out more

I google that and the best site reference i got was this
http://www.csldual.com/ - a company based in the uk...dont think they would monitor alarms here in ireland...

Jnealon wrote: »

Good choice, yes and yes

So just to clarify a alarm dual connected can contact a monitoring station via a eircom landline and also send texts to mobiles via a gsm dialler. But a landline can be physically tampered with and a gsm dialler can be blocked from a distance. So how do i counter this? what good is a alarm if it doesent tell me my house is under attack?

Jnealon

They will monitor in Ireland, anyway that's not the point. If you want to know about dual path monitoring then there is plenty of information on their site to get you started.
As I said in my previous post "The unit is polled every few minutes to make sure that both lines of communication are working and have not been tampered with."
If one form of communication is tampered with then the other sends out a signal to the CS

altor

irishsaintme wrote: »

What is Smart monitoring-are they a company that install alarms or provide only monitoring-where can i find more details? How much would having the 'heart beat' of the alarm being always monitored cost?

Smart monitoring is the name of the monitoring station. The poll on the unit can be set up to what ever the installer wants every 30 seconds if need be. If the phone line gets cut the unit contacts the monitoring station on the GPRS and vise versa if the GPRS gets blocked. They only provide the units to the installers for them to install. This unit costs €305 to buy but then what ever the installer want to charge for the monitoring plus installation. The contract for monitoring by this unit is 3 years.

altor

irishsaintme wrote: »

Im thinking of getting the signet 100 http://www.europlex-signet.com/downloads.php# as its supposed to ideal for consumer homes yes?

I want the signet 100 to provides alerts via the eircom phone and also via gsm (i want to receive texts alerts on multiple mobile phones). Is this possible?

Can all the sensors on the doors and windows be all wireless only, not physical electrical lines?

You should also check out the HKC securewave system. You can add all wire free devices, wire free external bell, wire free internal bell. Secure keyfobs. It can also contact up to 19 people by text on GSM and use your Eircom line.