Ireland PLC

Citizen_Cutback · 03-11-2010 3:59pm #1

Here is a thoughtful blogpost from the UK based Golem XIV (aka David Malone, author of The Debt Generation) where he questions Government's craven response to Bondholders as opposed to it's total abandonment of the idea of Citizen's rights being preeminent in a nation state.

Permabear · 03-11-2010 4:15pm

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danbohan · 03-11-2010 4:39pm

Its not just the left wing posters that are in denial it seems to be the majority of the population .

Citizen_Cutback · 03-11-2010 5:11pm

Sounds like a threat...

OK. So what is the Bank Bailout costing? 60 billion..? 80 billion..?

I think we could afford to pay quite high interest rates on Bonds for a number of years before we reached a cost of 60-80 billion if we did renege on what was originally Private company debt which has been socialised by a Government who has been leashed by powerful vested interests.

The market is great as long as it can be manipulated.

It is good to see that somebody like yourself is making money in the current situation.

Valmont · 03-11-2010 5:34pm

Oh give over. It was this manipulation that gave the banks the power to lend ridiculous amounts of money to every Tom, Dick, and Harry who wanted to build a housing estate.

Permabear · 03-11-2010 5:44pm

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amacachi · 03-11-2010 5:54pm

Can I have a lend of some money please? I know you may have heard about all the other loans I didn't pay back but I promise I'll pay this one back even though I'm sinking further and further into debt every second.

Who's gonna fall for that?

cson · 03-11-2010 6:00pm

Just read the first line there and the irony or rather lack of proper research hit me; if a company goes insolvent the employees [labour force] are always paid in full for arrears of wages from the DETI Insolvency Fund.

cson · 03-11-2010 6:04pm

Ah, good old begrudgery.

Citizen_Cutback · 03-11-2010 6:37pm

Bondholders weigh up the risk of subsequent defaults and expect an adequate premium to cover their risk exposure. We can still sell Bonds at the moment but choose not to do so. The IMF becomes necessary when a country is unable to pay interest on it's Bonds. The €60 bilion paid to bailout the banks would more than pay interest on our Bonds until such time as we could balance the books in 3-4 years.

You are not stupid. Please do not attempt to misrepresent what I actually said.

It is easy to make money when elected Politicians continuously trade their electorates best interests to the will of Lobbyists.

Citizen_Cutback · 03-11-2010 6:49pm

Sorry, but did you not detect a hint of sarcasm?

Donegalfella thanks you all the same.

Citizen_Cutback · 03-11-2010 6:50pm

Sorry! Not begrudgery: Sarcasm.

More thanks from Donegalfella

Permabear · 03-11-2010 6:56pm

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Citizen_Cutback · 03-11-2010 7:17pm

You seem to think that we should fear the IMF more than the markets. Why?

Perhaps there is less money to be made by traders when the IMF is in control but there is probably a lot of money to be made when there is uncertainty.

I didn't say anything of the sort.

What I said was that the cost of the Bank Bailout has been transferred to the Irish Taxpayer by the Government for no good reason than they were told to do so by Lobbyists.

Our Budget deficit will have to be substantially reduced in the next four years.

Letting Anglo Irish Bank collapse would have upset the ECB and a lot of foreign banks and not a lot more.

Please do not say that Anglo was an essential part of our banking system.

That's Politics for you... as you well know.

More threats... but you will profit in any case.

Permabear · 04-11-2010 11:57am

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rumour · 04-11-2010 7:31pm

As bad as FF are they did not decide to bail out the banks because they wanted to bankrupt the citizens. You ought to stop and consider rationally the scenario had we not bailed out the banks. Either way we opt for it pain was and is on the way, the government hoped to plot a political path out of it. They have failed. It is very easy and I think cowardly for the political populist to now jump up and crie that it ought never to have been done and the banks should have been allowed to fail. Personally I would have advocated it, and the time to do it was before the Lisbon referendum, that was the last piece of leverage this state had.

However that to carried grave consequences and in real terms it would probably have been worse immediately than what we will endure now, but on the other hand we would probably be recoverying nicely now instead of facing doom. So if you despise the cuts currently I really cannot comphrehend why you advocate that the banks should have been left to fail.

Either option ends up the same.....no credit..... no money.

David Malone · 04-11-2010 8:27pm

Hello donegalfella,

I hope you won't mind me saying a word here in my defense. I'm the person quoted at the start of the thread. (I post under GolemXIV at my own blog.)

It's just that you misrepresent me when you suggest I am in favour of state expenditure and state borrowing continuing unabated. As a matter of fact I am not in favour of either.

And for that reason I am scandalized that your government and mine decided they would borrow such astronomical sums in order to spend them on paying private debts.

You, it would seem, are the one in favour of such astronomical expendutre and out of control borrowing not me. I would NOT pay the bankers debts for them and thus NOT have such idiotic levels of debt foisted upon the state.

Let's be clear here the many tens of billions the Irish government has had to borrow in such a short time is ONLY because of the banks. The borrowing the government was doing before the crash, for long term deficit had not become a borrowing crisis had it? We can probably agree such deficit should have been tackled. BUT it was not and is not what has required the borrowing of such vast sums. Those sums have been to pay off Anglo Irish's and other bank's debts.

that the lending was for stupid mortgages to people and developers who could not afford the loans, does NOT make it the State responsibility. They were and are private financial contracts between two sets of fools. They ruined each other. Don't compound their imbecility by making everyone else bail them out. There is still time and legal scope to put those losses back to those who made them.

Your government and mine have borrowed themselves into a crisis - but they did so to pay private debts.

If you don't like such levels of borrowing why do you support the bail outs? You cannot, it seems to me, have it both ways.

I am consistent. I feel borrowing and spending is out of control. I think it should be amputated not trimmed. BUT the amputation should be the infected and worthless part - that banks - not the healthy and importatnt part - the people.

The banks are moribund and will NOT contributen to nay sustainable growth. Why save them? The people could create new wealth if any money was being invested in them and their labour. Instead of wasting all the expenditure on the banks. Borrow less and spend on what will produce wealth. By borrowing less you will have to cut less and therefore do less crippling damage to your ability to grow.

That, it seems to me, is neither left nor right wing.

It is a fiction that Ireland would die if it were to refuse to suport the private debts of its banks. Other nations have forced restructuring of their banks and are alive and well today. Some of them are Irelands creditors.

To paraphrse a great man. We have nothing to fear but fear itself.

As I say, I hope you don't mind me popping round uninvited. I do just hate being misrepresented.

Ireland PLC

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