Saorview name really needs to be pushed and Freeview forgotten

snaps

Now that word is getting around about the Irish DTT Saorview service, people are starting to understand that DTT is widely available. The amount of phonecalls/emails im getting the last week saying they want all the channels that are available by an aerial from the "Freeview" system. Its starting to get very frustrating as well then trying to explain the differences between the Irish system and the UK system of "Freeview". Also lots of people ringing asking why they only have sound and no picture on a new TV they have just brought.

Is this just the start of the frustrating phonecalls, or is there going to be a proper campain educating people on the differences between the 2 brand names and broadcasting systems?

At least shops and vendors should be educated before they sell an old Freeview Mpeg 2 TV to someone, telling them its digital ready!

Suppose this could only happen in Ireland!

Gulliver

It's the same as the old UHF/VHF confusion when people were buying their TVs in the North. We just have to be awkward with our standards. Granted, MPEG4 is a better idea in the long run.

watty

The UK now uses MPEG4 also for "FreeviewHD" and "FreeviewHD+"

Since most of the "Freeview" TVs are HD or HDready but will NEVER receive HD DTT in UK without a box, the "plain" Freeview should vanish over next two years. I'm doing what I can to educate http://www.techtir.ie/saortv (3221 reads since 2010-08-18 on 2010-11-03)

snaps

There needs to be a TV and radio campaign, and shops need to be informed and trained. Im feeling so sorry for people that are parting with hard earned cash and they only have a Mpeg 2 TV (They buy it with Freeview on and think it will get them the DTT Saorview), shocking we are in this mess. When you inform people that they will need a new TV, set top box, satellite system, they think you are trying to rip them off.

Tom Slick

Presumably there will be plenty of ad campaigns in the coming months. Otherwise why bother with a brand name?

It's to give the average person something they can trust when buying equipment. If they don't push it they might as well just carry on, without the Saorview name, say broadcasts are now digital rather than analogue and let people figure the rest out themselves.

stevethesatguy

Agree wih Snaps, lots of confusion , lots of people thinking its a scam, con, bulls**t etc etc,,

Its getting so bad I might just give up doing aerial installs untill the DTT service is fully up and running.

I spoke to RTE and TV3 today, my update on the Saorview DTT service or not is here http://www.satellitetv.ie/shop/index.php?controller=information&information_id=30

Its not good news.

Tom Slick

stevethesatguy wrote: »

Agree wih Snaps, lots of confusion , lots of people thinking its a scam, con, bulls**t etc etc,,

A scam or a con?! That's not saying much for our national broadcaster(s)!

Mr McBoatface

A proper public awareness campaign needs to happen ASAP. Retailers at the very least should have to clearly state that Freeview TV's are not compatible with Saorview.

@ stevethesatguy - Is this an official response ?

According to TV3 today 03/11/2010 they (TV3 ) do not expect to appear on the Saorview DTT service until February / March 2011

If so I think the BAI should strip them of their license.

Tom Slick

February or March next year is a perfectly reasonable timeframe for the appearance of TV3.

Some of us are not expecting them to appear until after ASO. I would allow them to decide when to switch off their own analogue transmissions.

(Post obsolete, for now anyway)

watty

I think they can probably argue that they are not obliged to be carried till just before Full Launch.

"(TV3 ) do not expect to appear on the Saorview DTT service until February / March 2011 "

"Full Launch is Spring 2011"

This is entirely as expected. I don't really expect them to try and wait till Oct 2012 as they would lose out too much.

Mr McBoatface

Looks like TV3 is up and running now - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=68830693&postcount=188

reaper180

yep sure is ,,, judge judy on the case lol

cuppa

my dad has all the analogue channels will he still get them when its turned off. Bbc. Ch4. Sky.

PauloMN

snaps wrote: »

Now that word is getting around about the Irish DTT Saorview service, people are starting to understand that DTT is widely available. The amount of phonecalls/emails im getting the last week saying they want all the channels that are available by an aerial from the "Freeview" system. Its starting to get very frustrating as well then trying to explain the differences between the Irish system and the UK system of "Freeview". Also lots of people ringing asking why they only have sound and no picture on a new TV they have just brought.

Is this just the start of the frustrating phonecalls, or is there going to be a proper campain educating people on the differences between the 2 brand names and broadcasting systems?

At least shops and vendors should be educated before they sell an old Freeview Mpeg 2 TV to someone, telling them its digital ready!

Suppose this could only happen in Ireland!

According to TV3 today 03/11/2010 they (TV3 ) do not expect to appear on the Saorview DTT service untill February / March 2011.....only in Ireland could this happen!

So TV3 told you today that they didn't expect to appear on DTT for another few months, and yet today they appeared on DTT? FFS! (Not having a go by the way, I just think the lack of information is laughable). No wonder people are confused.

watty

How can people possibly keep their websites upto date?

lawhec

watty wrote: »

The UK now uses MPEG4 also for "FreeviewHD" and "FreeviewHD+"

Since most of the "Freeview" TVs are HD or HDready but will NEVER receive HD DTT in UK without a box, the "plain" Freeview should vanish over next two years. I'm doing what I can to educate http://www.techtir.ie/saortv (3221 reads since 2010-08-18 on 2010-11-03)

I wouldn't bet on that Watty - Freeview HD STB's still aren't cheap (Freeview HD PVR's are now just starting to come out) at least £100, and within the normal timescales I can't see such STB's coming down to the current price of Freeview (SD) STB's in two years. You also then have the problem of perfectly good equiptment like STB's and PVR's being rendered useless in a short space of time for announcement. We all know that no television receiver has to be dumped to upgrade to digital, but it's different for a DVB-T to DVB-T2 migration path. I can't see the UK (especially the two post-DSO PSB multiplexes) converting the multiplexes until there's a point where most receivers, including receivers in bedrooms, sun rooms etc. are T2 compatible and the idea of another upgrade to view terrestrial television will annoy people and be gold for the likes of Sky. I'd give it 2015, maybe 2014 at the earliest with the commercial multiplexes going first.

watty

I think you misunderstood me!
I meant most of the Sets in Shops would be FreeviewHD rather than Freeview. The plain freeview transmissions I totally agree will be around maybe 10 years..

fat-tony

stevethesatguy wrote: »

Agree wih Snaps, lots of confusion , lots of people thinking its a scam, con, bulls**t etc etc,,

Its getting so bad I might just give up doing aerial installs untill the DTT service is fully up and running.

I spoke to RTE and TV3 today, my update on the Saorview DTT service or not is here http://www.satellitetv.ie/shop/index.php?controller=information&information_id=30

Its not good news.

You need to fix your website post now

tvman2

One thing about Freeview vs Saorview. Don't forget the thousands that live within range of UK transmitters - along the border and down the east coast.
When Divis DTT for example goes on full power in 2012 maybe 35 times the current output, Freeview equipped tvs' will come into their own. This is something that is often overlooked at times. It often comes across in articles that there will be no overspill of UK DTT - when analogue goes that's it.
Of course for the rest of the country a Freeview tv will be of little use and that should be emphasised by anyone selling them, but where Freeview will be available, it might be no harm that people who bought Freeview tvs' be made aware of this - that all is not lost!
Finally has anyone used a Saorview compatible tv or similar to see if it will show Freeview channels i.e backwards compatible ( maybe for FreeviewHD too!)

Mr McBoatface

Freeview is useless for Saorview - Most if not all FreeviewHD equipment will most likely work 100% for both Saorview & FreeviewHD service. There is a huge difference between Freeview and FreeviewHD. This is the very type of information that need to be addressed by proper campaign.

The Cush

tvman2 wrote: »

One thing about Freeview vs Saorview. Don't forget the thousands that live within range of UK transmitters - along the border and down the east coast.
When Divis DTT for example goes on full power in 2012 maybe 35 times the current output, Freeview equipped tvs' will come into their own. This is something that is often overlooked at times. It often comes across in articles that there will be no overspill of UK DTT - when analogue goes that's it.
Of course for the rest of the country a Freeview tv will be of little use and that should be emphasised by anyone selling them, but where Freeview will be available, it might be no harm that people who bought Freeview tvs' be made aware of this - that all is not lost!
Finally has anyone used a Saorview compatible tv or similar to see if it will show Freeview channels i.e backwards compatible ( maybe for FreeviewHD too!)

Read the posts here. There are probably thousands of post here regarding overspill and it hasn't been overlooked.

People who purchased freeview only TVs and live in an overspill area and are interested in the UK channels and have posted here are well aware of the digital overspill.

They are probably more aware since the Saorview launch last Friday that they cannot receive the Irish channels on their TVs if the number of posts regarding audio and no video is anything to by.

When Divis goes full power the Irish analogue channels will be gone also, so owners of freeview only TVs will require an additional STB to continue watching the Irish digital channels.

There are no Saorview certified DVB-T2 (freeview-HD) TVs on the market at the moment, Saorview certified TVs (MPEG-4) will be backward compatible with freeview (MPEG-2). Freeview-HD TVs will receive the Irish DTT channels.

BTW: why did you highlight your post in blue?

watty

tvman2 wrote: »

Finally has anyone used a Saorview compatible tv or similar to see if it will show Freeview channels i.e backwards compatible ( maybe for FreeviewHD too!)

Freeveiw -> Only Freeview
Saorview -> Freeview and Saorview, not "Freeview HD" unless DVB-T2 tuner
FreeviewHD -> Freeview, Freeview HD and Saorview
See http://www.techtir.ie/saortv/saorview

snaps

The Cush wrote: »

Don't read articles, read the posts here. There are probably thousands of post here regarding overspill and it hasn't been overlooked.

People who purchased freeview only TVs and live in an overspill area and are interested in the UK channels and have posted here are well aware of the digital overspill.

They are probably more aware since the Saorview launch last Friday that they cannot receive the Irish channels on their TVs if the number of posts regarding audio and no video is anything to by.

I agree but how many of the general money spending public read the posts here and even understand the basics about TV's. The amount of houses we go to and install an aerial and when it comes to tuning the TV in you ask the customer for the remote and they say "We dont have a remote, we lost that years ago, we just use the TV buttons" So then you are stuck at the point where they even have an aerial installed (As they are cancelling Sky), they cant tune in the channels on their TV. People have got so used to turning on a sky box that all this new tech is so confussing. Even my head is a little wrecked with it.

lawhec

snaps wrote: »

I agree but how many of the general money spending public read the posts here and even understand the basics about TV's. The amount of houses we go to and install an aerial and when it comes to tuning the TV in you ask the customer for the remote and they say "We dont have a remote, we lost that years ago, we just use the TV buttons" So then you are stuck at the point where they even have an aerial installed (As they are cancelling Sky), they cant tune in the channels on their TV. People have got so used to turning on a sky box that all this new tech is so confussing. Even my head is a little wrecked with it.

For a long time up here in around Omagh, if you wanted RTÉ you had to have a TV set that had a VHF tuner - most UK televisions were UHF only especially those brought from major retail stores, local shops labelled TV's with a VHF tuner as such (normally "Dual Band"). If your TV was UHF only, you could either use a VCR with a VHF tuner and tune in that way, or (much less common) use a frequency shifter to bring the VHF transmissions up to UHF - unless you were lucky enough to live in an area where either Carin Hill or Holywell Hill had a reasonable signal.

If an IDTV is MPEG2 compaitble only, it's like the UHF televisions up here years ago - it isn't possible to directly watch these transmissions but there is a way around it. It would probably be better if RTÉNL switch the TV channels to having an advanced codec identifier back like they had done for a while so that MPEG2 only televisions ignore it and cause less hassle in the process (I'm well aware of the problem on some Panasonics).

Mike 1972

Gulliver wrote: »

It's the same as the old UHF/VHF confusion when people were buying their TVs in the North. We just have to be awkward with our standards.

Errr most countries in Europe The world used VHF and UHF frequencies for analouge television. The UK were one of only a handful of countries using UHF only (for some reason they felt the need to allocate all the band 3 frequencies to two way radio even though most other countries manage to fit all their PMR into frequencies outside the broadcast bands) The ones who were being awkward downright stupid were the TV/Video manufacturers/distributors selling UHF only sets.

Antenna

lawhec wrote: »

It would probably be better if RTÉNL switch the TV channels to having an advanced codec identifier back like they had done for a while so that MPEG2 only televisions ignore it and cause less hassle in the process (I'm well aware of the problem on some Panasonics).

Why should they bother? How is it anymore hassle if these TVs can receive DTT sound and teletext OK but no picture, compared to nothing from DTT at all. It might be of some use to some people to use an MPEG2 receiver to listen to radio stations (that are on DTT) if they so want.

If a DTT TV (with MPEG2 only) picks up no digital signal whatsoever - some owners might get it into their head that they need a higher gain aerial and waste money on one!

A TV with sound, teletext, but no picture on DTT confirms to anyone in the know, what the issue is, and that DTT is available at that location with the correct receiver.



This type of situation isn't new with digital. As you would know it was the case for decades (with analogue) if one purchased a TV in most of mainland Europe and brought it to Ireland you could have received a picture with colour perfectly but zero sound.

Mike 1972 wrote: »

The ones who were being awkward downright stupid were the TV/Video manufacturers/distributors selling UHF only sets.

It also meant cable TV viewers in the UK were generally unable to tape one (unscrambled) channel while watching another - being tied to using a Set-top- box regardless of if the channels were scrambled or not. Some cable TV users there imported sets from Ireland!

winston_1

The solution is easy. Your government should mandate that all new TV's sold must be MPEG 4 capable.

Antenna

winston_1 wrote: »

The solution is easy. Your government should mandate that all new TV's sold must be MPEG 4 capable.

I wouldn't go as far as that, but suggest that purchasers would have to sign a declaration that they understand that a MPEG2 only TV being purchased is not compatible with Irish DTT.

Ever since VCRs etc (and TVs with non-RF inputs - SCART etc), there have been TVs sold where the tuner has never been used. The purchaser might purely want the set for games, DVDs, cable TV box etc. and instead go north of the border to buy a cheap MPEG2 TV for use as a 'monitor'.

If such a rule was workable, surely there would already have been a ban on UHF-only TVs sold on the republic, which there wasn't. In the past the majority of viewers in the republic either had cable TV (needs VHF) or were in a VHF area for RTE.

Mike 1972

Antenna wrote: »

If such a rule was workable, surely there would already have been a ban on UHF-only TVs sold on the republic, which there wasn't. In the past the majority of viewers in the republic either had cable TV (needs VHF) or were in a VHF area for RTE.

Im not aware of any instances of retail outlets in the Republic of Ireland selling new UHF only TV's (or videos). Any instances of people mistakenly buying such sets involved them (or someone acting on their behalf) buying the sets in Northern Ireland to the best of my knowledge.

However I am aware of UK owned retail outlets selling DTT (and DAB) equipment (and/or UHF aerials boosters etc) in parts of Ireland where terrestrial reception from the UK would have been a complete impossibility/and or all the local RTE stuff was on VHF/DAB signals were non existant etc

The Cush

Mike 1972 wrote: »

However I am aware of UK owned retail outlets selling DTT (and DAB) equipment (and/or UHF aerials boosters etc) in parts of Ireland where terrestrial reception from the UK would have been a complete impossibility/and or all the local RTE stuff was on VHF/DAB signals were non existant etc

Maplin's in Limerick were selling freeview receivers in the past, not sure if they still are, haven't been in recently. No chance of any freeview overspill in the region.

jamescc

snaps wrote: »

Now that word is getting around about the Irish DTT Saorview service, people are starting to understand that DTT is widely available. The amount of phonecalls/emails im getting the last week saying they want all the channels that are available by an aerial from the "Freeview" system. Its starting to get very frustrating as well then trying to explain the differences between the Irish system and the UK system of "Freeview". Also lots of people ringing asking why they only have sound and no picture on a new TV they have just brought.

Is this just the start of the frustrating phonecalls, or is there going to be a proper campain educating people on the differences between the 2 brand names and broadcasting systems?

At least shops and vendors should be educated before they sell an old Freeview Mpeg 2 TV to someone, telling them its digital ready!

Suppose this could only happen in Ireland!

MAYBE it might be a good idea of logging all the phone calls and emails received and send them on to the minister or who ever is in charge of this i for one would like to see more channnels sd or hd does not matter

scruffy66

winston_1 wrote: »

The solution is easy. Your government should mandate that all new TV's sold must be MPEG 4 capable.

Have to agree with you ,considering that after 2012 all Mpeg 2 TV's will just be monitors and considering that 99% of people who buy mpeg 2 TV's dont realise that fact , i think TV shops etc should be given 6 months to get rid of Mpeg 2 stock and then all TV's sold after that should be Mpeg 4.surely that is what a green minister would do.

The Cush

winston_1 wrote: »

The solution is easy. Your government should mandate that all new TV's sold must be MPEG 4 capable.

From what date did the UK mandate that all new TVs sold include MPEG-2 tuners and the sale of analogue only TVs cease?
What date have they mandated for all TVs to include DVB-T2 tuners?

Considering NI is about 2 years away from ASO and about 12 years since it launched are there any analogue only TVs still being sold?

Mike 1972

The Cush wrote: »

From what date did the UK mandate that all new TVs sold include MPEG-2 tuners and the sale of analogue only TVs cease?
What date have they mandated for all TVs to include DVB-T2 tuners?

Considering NI is about 2 years away from ASO and about 12 years since it launched are there any analogue only TVs still being sold?

The UK didnt (AFaIK) didnt have such a regulation but the USA did/does

At this stage most/all sets sold in the UK have DTT tuners but this wasnt the case in 2008 when the first regions were switched over.

IMNSHO once the price of a freeview box went below £30 DTT tuners in new TV's/Videos should have been mandatory and DVB-T2 tuners should be mandatory in and set sold as "HD ready". Sets sold in Northern Ireland should have had MPEG4/VHF analouge capability too.

The Cush

Mike 1972 wrote: »

The UK didnt (AFaIK) didnt have such a regulation but the USA did/does

At this stage most/all sets sold in the UK have DTT tuners but this wasnt the case in 2008 when the first regions were switched over.

IMNSHO once the price of a freeview box went below £30 DTT tuners in new TV's/Videos should have been mandatory and DVB-T2 tuners should be mandatory in and set sold as "HD ready". Sets sold in Northern Ireland should have had MPEG4/VHF analouge capability too.

So after 12 years of UK DTT there is no regulation mandating DTT tuners.

Does anyone know if there are "analogue only" TVs still on sale in NI?

watty

If there are, no-one has bought them. According to 2009 figures, no Analogue only sets sold. I'd say someone somewhere bought one.

In UK
The main stores are not even going to stock analogue only. During 2011 non "freeview HD" sets claiming to be HD ready/ Full HD will vanish. Expect these to really drop in price and turn up here (oh wait they already have!).

French have a regulation. This is not unusual as they invented SCART and then insisted you could only sell a TV with SCART. Nice idea. Terrible plug design.

Mike 1972

The Cush wrote: »

Does anyone know if there are "analogue only" TVs still on sale in NI?

Sure there is. Secondhand in car boot sales and the like :pac:

Dont know of any retail outlets still trying to flog new ones (the distributors have probably "dumped" them all on the Irish market) maybe the odd one shows up in Lidl or a certain well known Service station just off the M1 ?

Dont know of any law/regulation prohibiting/restricting the sale of new analogue only sets though although there really should have been.

BTW were there any restrictions placed on the sale of 405 line only TV sets in Ireland in the early 1960's or regulations specifying that they must cover the Irish VHF 625 line channels ?

watty wrote: »

French have a regulation.... insisted you could only sell a TV with SCART. .

Think they eventually persuaded the rest of the EU to follow suit ?

watty wrote: »

SCART. Nice idea. Terrible plug design.

You could sing that if you had a tune to go with it !

scruffy66

The Cush wrote: »

From what date did the UK mandate that all new TVs sold include MPEG-2 tuners and the sale of analogue only TVs cease?
What date have they mandated for all TVs to include DVB-T2 tuners?

If the difference between a TV and monitor is that a TV has a Tuner and i buy a Mpeg 2 TV in the New Year with a 2 year guarantee , surely if the tuner is no longer of use within the 2 year guarantee , then its broken to the use i bought it for [ would i have a case]. I just think we will be a dumping ground for cheap Mpeg 2 TV's that are not of use for DTT that has cost 70 million to put in
place.

The Cush

watty wrote: »

French have a regulation. This is not unusual as they invented SCART and then insisted you could only sell a TV with SCART. Nice idea. Terrible plug design.

The regulation came in to force some years after launch.

Mike 1972

scruffy66 wrote: »

surely if the tuner is no longer of use within the 2 year guarantee , then its broken to the use i bought it for [ would i have a case.

While I would have some sympathy with this notion I can also see a practical argument against it.

What of someone who bought a MW only portable radio just before RTE switched off 567 KHz. Should they be entitled to a refund on their radio ?

BostonB

Mike 1972 wrote: »

While I would have some sympathy with this notion I can also see a practical argument against it.

What of someone who bought a MW only portable radio just before RTE switched off 567 KHz. Should they be entitled to a refund on their radio ?

I'd say yes. Because the shop shouldn't have sold it.

Mike 1972

So if I lived in RoI and wanted to listen to UK/Continental stations at night the shop shouldnt be allowed to sell me a radio ?

Whats the weather like in North Korea this time of year ?

BostonB

Can it pick them up on MW?

I guess someone might buy one before they travel too.

Radio's a little different from a TV though.

watty

If travelling a LW/MW/SW/VHF is more use.

It's not that MW only or Analogue only TV should be illegal. It's that it should also include the other features/bands/codecs needed or else be marked "Export Use only, not compatible with some Irish Serivices".

I get peeved with Car Radios that "only" have MW & VHF. A car Radio should have LW, MW, VHF and maybe DAB as a minimum.

Co-op Sony €99 LW, MW, VHF
Lidl €69 MW & VHF, no LW, as is typical with Lidl this is not clear on box. Many AM/FM radios tune LW and MW on the AM band/Memories

LW & VHF is far more useful than MW& VHF (LW = R4 in Ireland, RTE R1 in UK, plus even French and German reliably on LW in most of Ireland).

holidaysong

watty wrote: »

LW & VHF is far more useful than MW& VHF (LW = R4 in Ireland, RTE R1 in UK, plus even French and German reliably on LW in most of Ireland).

It depends what you find useful though. BBC R5Live and TalkSport are both on MW and I'd listen to them very regularly (although I get BBC R5L on DAB now). I used to listen to LW BBC R4 for cricket but I don't need to anymore since they now air it on BBC R5L Sports Xtra. For me MW is infinitely more useful than LW.

watty

If a radio has LW it WILL have MW. Apart from the fixed Atlantic 252 only pocket radio promotional "toys".

It depends if in house, car or travelling too.

Mike 1972

watty wrote: »

If a radio has LW it WILL have MW. .

I have seen LW/FM (no MW) radios. Theyre rare beasts in this part of the world (more common in France) but they do exist.

watty

Well... I must not have been paying attention.

Because I've not seen one ever. It just goes to show that "Experience" doesn't equal Fact.

Black Swans.

ted1

how many people will actually use this system as oppose to ply upc and freesat. Will people buying a large screen really just want to rely on the irish channels and forget about cable or satellite?

watty

no Saorview + Freesat

People with UPC or Sky will use Saorview for all the other TVs.

UPC have confirmed they will someday be like Sky and require a digibox per TV and turn Analogue cable off, with extra cost per box like Sky Multiroom. They do it already for Digital.

People with Sky often using Freesat + aerial for other TVs. After 2012 they need Saorview.

lawhec

watty wrote: »

Well... I must not have been paying attention.

Because I've not seen one ever. It just goes to show that "Experience" doesn't equal Fact.

Black Swans.

I have an old Philips FM/LW handheld radio somewhere in the attic, if I come across it I'll post a photo up.

I also remember in a catalogue a number of years ago a firm selling peak caps with a built in radio with two varities, one with FM/MW and the other FM/LW, the latter aimed at those wanting to listen to cricket.