Workmanship and Quality

kboc

These posts started life here

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sinnerboy wrote: »

Why only 150mm ?

just finishing my house, 150mm cavity and i thought i was good at the time! I seen this about 9 months ago, i wish i had seen this before I started. Seriously good and i bet you not that much more expensive that standard 100mm cavity. Same old problem (even more so in Ireland) getting quality trades men who know what to do

WUFF

Hi, Sorry Mr Stonewall for jumping in on your thread, Mods please remove/delete if warranted.

Hi Kboc, just a point regarding your build, you went with 150mm cavity and may have went 300mm if you had known about it. Just curious as to what this has to do with "getting quality tradesmen who know what to do"

My point is Insulation has only became a big deal in the last few years,during the boom years, houses for the most part were built with very little though put into insulation.

Cavity insulation was left to bricklayers/blocklayers to install, while these trades were trained (sometimes) to build walls they have no training in the now huge amount of diffrent insulation materials and techniques.
Construction Technology regarding insulation has jumped hugely in the past few years, i feel trades are being left behind regarding education and training and this is where the problem exists.

Cheers.

sinnerboy

WUFF wrote: »

Construction Technology regarding insulation has jumped hugely in the past few years, i feel trades are being left behind regarding education and training and this is where the problem exists.
Cheers.

Fair point . Too often "the trades" comprised of decent hard working people are knocked for not being up to speed . But in what context . Consumers chase the bottom line and that coupled with a lack of ongoing education left little incentive for "the grunts"* to upskill .

That will change . Ironically FAS as necessary today more then ever are responding with training initiatives ( can't put my fingers on an example right now - will revert ASAP )

This is a separate govt initaitive aimed at both Trades and Professionals .


* not how I regard them - in case that needs to clarified

.

beyondpassive

Good discussion, sure its all about workmanship, unfortunatly we don't have building control and architects arn't paid to supervise to the extent needed.

for the 225 cavities, I have used WR play wrapped in solitex to close the cavity, Sinnerboy, is 60mm Gutex to close the cavity enough on its own or do i need to have rockwool fire barrier over it.

gsxr1

kboc wrote: »

just finishing my house, 150mm cavity and i thought i was good at the time! I seen this about 9 months ago, i wish i had seen this before I started. Seriously good and i bet you not that much more expensive that standard 100mm cavity. Same old problem (even more so in Ireland) getting quality trades men who know what to do

I think your comment about tradesmen a little unfair. Its not a tradesman who designs the cavity space in a home. They work of a plan which was agreed upon by others.

Also I would like to add. the majority of block layers I have worked with over the years take great pride in their work and are very tidy. But i did also see some really sloppy brickys as well in fairness.

As a trades person myself the only way I can keep up with new designs and standards is following threads like this. If its not in the homebond book most wont know about advances.

creedp

In response to Kboc's point re: quality tradesmen.

I would have to agree that many tradespeople are not up to speed with modern techniques, design, etc. I am currently building a house and when I went for planning a couple of years back I asked about cavity width for the most part tradespeople would not even countenance 150mm not to mention 225 or greater. They wuld simply look at you as if you were not fully right in the head and go on about the fact that they and their fathers before them were building houses for years and know whats best. I eventially went with a 150mm cavity but I had to fight my corner for this and all I got was that it would be more expensive - nothing about it being better!!

Its very difficult for a person who does not have the requisite experience or expertise to challenge these views. Its all very well saying its the customer that involved in a race to the bottom with regard to price but if they cannot compare like with like and therefore be in a position to select more progressive builders on the basis of quality it is difficult to blame them. What's lacking in this country is basic regulation. Anyone can put a sign on their van and call themselves a builder and many have!!

sinnerboy

creedp wrote: »

if they cannot compare like with like and therefore be in a position to select more progressive builders on the basis of quality it is difficult to blame them.

So who would you blame ? And what commercial motivation for "the tradesman" to upskill when so often the "they" you refer to equate quality with expensive rather then value ?

I'm not having a go at you in particular creedp . Suppliers will only deliver what markets demand .

We are in transition now and in the long run a slow down is a very good time to reflect and take stock . It is lamentable that the rising awareness of how to build better occurs at the end of a spectacular building boom .

To anyone building today - do you want that in 20 years time that your building will be regarded as "one of those turn of the century energy
guzzlers" ?

beyondpassive

creedp wrote: »

Its very difficult for a person who does not have the requisite experience or expertise to challenge these views. Its all very well saying its the customer that involved in a race to the bottom with regard to price but if they cannot compare like with like and therefore be in a position to select more progressive builders on the basis of quality it is difficult to blame them. What's lacking in this country is basic regulation. Anyone can put a sign on their van and call themselves a builder and many have!!

Ever wonder why Architect technologists spend 4 years in college, with 2 year professional experience and architects spend 5 years college and 3 years professional experience. Its hardly just to do 'de plannen'

So many DIY home-builders seem to do spend a couple of evenings reading boards.ie and off they go, its the technical detailing, tender and contract side of things that you really need professional input.

kboc

i started my house in winter 08. A 200mm cavity was recommended to me. My house is in N.Ireland. Building Control nearly had a coronary, over this special cavity. They sh1t themselves, nobody in that department was prepared to sign if off. My architect (as by definition) designed the house! All small print on the house plans regarding specifications was copy and paste form the standard build regs at that particular moment in time. The block layer told me i was "wasting my time and money" building such a cavity.

After building control insisting they would not signing off on 200mm, we agreed on 150mm cavity. The architect commended me for doing something "different" in trying to reduce my heating costs. The block layer thought i was off my rocker, still.

Well, when i mention air tight tapes etc they all were going to sign me in!

So, please don't tell me that the trades AND professionals people are not to blame. The vast majority don't care. Ironically, my architect and builder have rang me (a fu**ing school teacher) looking for some unqualified advice on insulation and airtight tapes etc.

Anybody who is anybody, who has a modicum of pride in their work and profession would be keen to learn and improve. I have met very few of these.

The very fact that we are interested enough to "chat" about this topic on this website shows we are the interested ones. All the building trade men/women and professionals on this web site or any other equivalent to boards.ie probably account for less than 1%. All this is not good enough.

Me or you are not the ones in a position to alter this issue. Me or you are only in a position to effect our own builds. We are in a minority and the "system" is working against us in that sense.

Rant over!

sinnerboy

Again kboc - fair points well made . .

I mix in circles ( trades and professionals ) where all of this is self evident . "Birds of a feather" so to speak . Sometimes I loose sight that that not everyone is on the same page .

braftery

kboc ... great post !

I have worked with some great builders and subbies and have been on some sites that are a joy to see the quality of workmanship .. but they are the exception rather than the rule.

From where I stand the quality of workmanship in the majority of sites I visit is dismally sad.

Founds of square
Founds off level
Walls off square
Walls off plum
openings bowed
Cills angled and off level
Spagetti wiring

need I go on !

It appears that on most sites no one is checking/supervising the work as it is being undertaken and there is no agreement on what is a permissible tolerance and what is bad workmanship that must be redone.

Every problem ends up in a fudged compromise that in the end means the building may cost more and almost definitely will not perform as well as it should.

If step 1 is wrong then all the way through the build the next trade will be dealing with the problems left before.

Dont assume the expert knows better than you.
Agree everything in writing, this works for both sides.
Snag your job daily, and if possible hourly !
Dont be your builder or subbies friend ... be their client.
Be fair, reasonable and professional and insist your they are too.
Dont pay peanuts or you will get monkeys !

Building well does not have to cost more
but building cheap will always deliver less.

creedp

@Sinnerboy. No problem, I'm not having a go at anybody either. My comments are simply the response to the frustration that can be experienced when attempting to deal with certain tradespeople. I decided to go with a 'Builder' rather than the 'direct labour' approach because I was not confident in my ability to manage the build and achieve a quality result. Looking back I wish I had dome more research on quality architects/engineers/builders that would have fought my corner but I didn't and I have to live with that decision.

@ Kboc - very well put and says it all really. Time has moved on but for the most part the industry hasn't. I accept that the buyer should be aware but the whole area is so complex and dynamic that in my opinion that is not always feasible. So for the time being many buyers will still be sold a pup.


Regards to all on Boards and keep up the good work because for some of us you are a godsend!!