Where to from here?

Sizzler

A letter from todays Indo. Fairly f**ked up country when you think the lad trying to employ people and make a few bob isnt entitled to a cent but the lad working for him thinks its a great country :eek:

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/where-to-from-here-2401354.html

wrote:

Sir -- I am a self-employed Irish man with a question for our men in Dail Eireann to answer. Please read on.

On Monday of this week, I made the toughest decision of my life to close my business. I regretfully informed my employees and was taken aback by the matter of fact response from a Polish employee who has worked in this country legally for me for four years. After a frank discussion, he outlined his future in our "mighty little country". He will receive €380 weekly from the Social Welfare, his rent of €162 will be paid, he will also receive a medical card and children's allowance. Due to my calculations, his future in our "mighty little country" rewards him to the tune of €770 weekly.

Now take me, his employer, following the humiliation of closing my business, I rang Citizens Advice and after a brief discussion, I am entitled to zero due to the fact that I am a property owner, i.e. the building which I used for the business I just closed.

I asked my now ex-employee if he was to return to Poland what would his entitlements be given the same situation. He would receive €150 per month plus €10 child benefit which when broken down works out at €39 per week. Will you go home, I innocently asked, he laughed and said "no, he loved our mighty little country!"

Maybe it's time our mighty politicians grew a pair of balls and dealt with this joke of a situation. Oh yes, my question for our mighty politicians

Where to from here?

Where to from here, indeed.

No question there are people in need of welfare but this makes a pure mockery of the system.

starbelgrade

The social welfare system here needs a serious overhaul. It was never designed to deal with the situations in which many people find themselves in now.

This should be a priority of the government, but they are too busy bailing out the banks & living in la-la land to actually give two fucks as to what happens the ordinary people of this country.

Rebelheart

Sizzler wrote: »

A letter from todays Indo. Fairly f**ked up country when you think the lad trying to employ people and make a few bob isnt entitled to a cent but the lad working for him thinks its a great country :eek:

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/where-to-from-here-2401354.html

Where to from here, indeed.

No question there are people in need of welfare but this makes a pure mockery of the system.

A good start, a very, very, very good start, is to stop reading that rag, stop funding its existence. Then your standards and expectations will rise.

galwayrush

I am self employed, some weeks my income is zero, my average for this year so far is less than 400 euro per week. Wife has cancer, got 2 kids, we can't get any help , no medical card, probably no future in this country.
I am being hounded for tax on money i certainly don't have, rate demands. Whatever money i get in soon goes on essentials like food, medicine, electricity,heat, kids school expenses. Thankfully no big mortgage.
No way will i be paying water charges or property tax, i don't have it, on the edge here, i really don't care what happens if this non compliance gets me into trouble, i won't be responsible for my actions if anybody comes to my home / business seizing stealing my hard earned possessions as a result.

chucken1

Can I just ask how he will get 380 a week?

starbelgrade

Rebelheart wrote: »

A good start, a very, very, very good start, is to stop reading that rag, stop funding its existence. Then your standards and expectations will rise.

Without doubt, the Sindo is a rag, but the letter makes some very valid points.

marcsignal

self employed people really get a raw deal from the SW, and I don't understand it at all.

They show initiave, start a business, employ other people in many cases, contribute to the economy, and if/when they fall on hard times and simply cannot continue, they are repaid with a kick in the bollix from social services

not getting into what the polish guy is getting, but something has to be done to support people who find themselves in this position, it makes no sense at all.

evercloserunion

Wait, so carrying on and profiting from your own business is accompanied by risk? No, it... it can't be.

starbelgrade

evercloserunion wrote: »

Wait, so carrying on and profiting from your own business is accompanied by risk? No, it... it can't be.

Well, of course it carries a risk. Are you looking for a prize for stating the bloody obvious?

That however, is not the point - if you are self employed, you pay PRSI just the same as someone who is employed by a business. However, you aren't entitled to the same benefits that someone who is made redundant is, which is highly inequitable.

Either self employed people should receive the same treatment, or should not have to pay PRSI, or at the very least, not as much.

squod

There's a cap on SW over here. There is no chance of him getting anything like that figure.

starbelgrade

squod wrote: »

There's a cap on SW over here. There is no chance of him getting anything like that figure.

I'm guessing - but I'd say that seeing as he has kids, that the €380 is between him and his wife / partner - ie., €190 each per week.

I could be wrong though.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Robit TV, FM104 News, B... oh wait.... someone else....

BrokenArrows

starbelgrade wrote: »

Well, of course it carries a risk. Are you looking for a prize for stating the bloody obvious?

That however, is not the point - if you are self employed, you pay PRSI just the same as someone who is employed by a business. However, you aren't entitled to the same benefits that someone who is made redundant is, which is highly inequitable.

Either self employed people should receive the same treatment, or should not have to pay PRSI, or at the very least, not as much.

Self employed do pay less, but not much.
Employed 4%
Self - Employed 3%

I also find it insane that a self employed person needs to pay PRSI and does not get the upside to it.
PRSI = Pay Related Social Insurance
So why don't they get it.

Fair enough every Joe Soap can be self employed but they must be able to work out some sort of plan where a self employed person can only claim X amount based on how much they actually contribute.

Also i believe they should be able to opt out of PRSI. If they want that security net they so be if but if they are willing to take the risk and opt out then it should be up to them.

squod

Relative who works in SW says the cap is €336/family (I think).

starbelgrade

BrokenArrows wrote: »

Self employed do pay less, but not much.
Employed 4%
Self - Employed 3%

Fair enough - but my point still stands. If you pay 25% less, then you should at least be entitled to 75% of the benefits afforded to workers.


Edit.... Just say your edited post - seems we're making more or less the same point!

Hail 2 Da Thief

The Irish system is currently designed in a way that it discourages entrepreneurs from setting up business in this country.

The only way we can get out of this mess we're in is by supporting entrepreneurs who can create & operate successful companies & in turn create employment.

Hands up who'd risk ploughing their life savings into a business venture knowing that should things go wrong you'll be offered absolutely no financial support?

squod

Hail 2 Da Thief wrote: »

The Irish system is currently designed in a way that it discourages entrepreneurs from setting up business in this country.

The only way we can get out of this mess we're in is by supporting entrepreneurs who can create & operate successful companies & in turn create employment.

Hands up who'd risk ploughing their life savings into a business venture knowing that should things go wrong you'll be offered absolutely no financial support?

I have 0 life savings, so yeah I would.

SoulTrader

Just to elaborate on the inequities of the PRSI system - Employer's PRSI contribution for each employee is 10.75% for most classes of employment. Now, this obviously is beneficial for the employee, and I'm sure is the reason why so many can claim generous SW, but again, you have to consider the Employer who is the one actually paying this on top of the employee's weekly wage. Surely by contributing so much to the social welfare fund, they should be entitled to something in return.

evercloserunion

starbelgrade wrote: »

Fair enough - but my point still stands. If you pay 25% less, then you should at least be entitled to 75% of the benefits afforded to workers.


Edit.... Just say your edited post - seems we're making more or less the same point!

I agree that there should definitely be reforms that provide small-time entrepreneurs with some kind of security. But as I see it, taking the route of setting up your own business is one that carries increased risk in return for the increased reward you have the potential to earn. I bet during the boom this guy wasn't complaining about how unfair it was that he earned more than his workers.

Again, we need reforms but I am okay with workers benefiting more from social insurance than employers.

RoadKillTs

Again, we need reforms but I am okay with workers benefiting more from social insurance than employers.

Why?
The employer is creating jobs, paying income tax (corp tax if a limited company) and PRSI.

The SW system in this country is a joke and badly needs to be reformed.
There is no incentive for people to work and no incentive for people to set up a business.

evercloserunion

RoadKillTs wrote: »

Why?
The employer is creating jobs, paying income tax (corp tax if a limited company) and PRSI.

The SW system in this country is a joke and badly needs to be reformed.
There is no incentive for people to work and no incentive for people to set up a business.

It's very popular to claim that there is no incentive to work because of the SW system. But I don't buy it. Ask the people who have been laid off, they won't be happy/indifferent about it, and they'd be very happy to take a job. That people (in general) would rather take the dole than work is quite simply not true. Of course you have some who are happy to take the dole but it's a small minority, who probably would not be incenitivsed to work even if the dole was decreased.

Regarding the incentive to start up a new business, I do agree there as I have said. But we have a pretty low corporation tax, and there are startup grants available AFAIK. I don't think it is fair to say that employers owe nothing to society because they create jobs. They're not charities; it's not like they don't see any return from this. No man is an island and employers could not profit from their enterprise were it not for a healthy, educated workforce, a functional infrastructure and a confident consumer base. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask employers to contribute to society and to the wellbeing and protection of workers.

Terry

marcsignal wrote: »

self employed people really get a raw deal from the SW, and I don't understand it at all.

They show initiave, start a business, employ other people in many cases, contribute to the economy, and if/when they fall on hard times and simply cannot continue, they are repaid with a kick in the bollix from social services

not getting into what the polish guy is getting, but something has to be done to support people who find themselves in this position, it makes no sense at all.

I know a few people in the same boat.

A coupld of my friends were self employed for about 10 or 12 years.
One of them gave me quite a lot of work over the years and he always went by the book (with a little creative accounting here and there made by his accountant. Anyone who says they do otherwise is lying).

I was on the books. Paid taxes like all his other employees. Then the shít hit the fan and his business went under.
He is now working as an apprentice mechanic and struggling to pay his mortgage and support the child he has with his ex.

The other friend was contracted by a large company. When I was well enough to work, the company would run me through their books.

Their accountant ripped off them, my friend and the other contractor and then fled the country (I'd post his name here if I could remember it. Edit: remembered his name, but there are quite a few accountants with the same name, so I don't want to sully their names).
The contract was cut and my friend was left with next to nothing despite having handed over about €40,000 in taxes a year. He went to sign on and they laughed at him. This was just as things went down the drain, so he found it almost impossible to get work.

He had to get another accountant and pay him to deal with the revenue services over the unpaid tax bills.
He ended up folding his business in order to be able to sign on.


The Polish? Well, I'm going to have to talk to my (community welfare officer) friend and ask him how immigrants can get more money than natives. I do have a feeling that the amount of money mentioned may have been embellished a bit. In saying that, anyone here legally and paying taxes is entitled to the same as the rest of us.

In some ways I do feel for the Poles. A lot of them came here hoping to begin a new and better life. Many succeeded. Fair play to them.
Others just came here to bleed the system. The €1 billion sent back to Poland is proof of that.

I do have sympathy for the Polish dude who parked his van at the top of my estate 2 weeks ago and was living in it until it was towed away tonight.
It's quite obvious that he wants to stay here, but just can't find work at the moment.

Terry

RoadKillTs wrote: »

Why?
The employer is creating jobs, paying income tax (corp tax if a limited company) and PRSI.

The SW system in this country is a joke and badly needs to be reformed.
There is no incentive for people to work and no incentive for people to set up a business.

That's complete and utter crap.

Think about this from a logical standpoint.

During the boom there was very little unemployment. Employers were crying out for people.
Just to give an example; see my previous post about the first self-employed friend. He had to turn down work because he was far too busy. The friend in the second example was contracted to a large company, so he too have to turn down work.

Both were able to pass the work on to others, and this would come back to them if they were having slow weeks. Sometimes they would ask me to fill in for them if I was able to. Actually, ask isn't the right word. They would beg me.

They could easily have jacked it all in back then and lived off the dole, but they didn't want to.

To claim that every one of the 13% of the unemployed people in this country do not want to work is naive and ignorant. You obviously have absolutely no idea what you're taking about.

Posting on boards and looking at porn all day may seem like fun, but it gets really tedious after a couple of weeks.
ou may not have any incentive to work, but the vast majority of the population would rather not be on the dole.

Mister men

Terry wrote: »

That's complete and utter crap.

Think about this from a logical standpoint.

During the boom there was very little unemployment. Employers were crying out for people.
Just to give an example; see my previous post about the first self-employed friend. He had to turn down work because he was far too busy. The friend in the second example was contracted to a large company, so he too have to turn down work.

Both were able to pass the work on to others, and this would come back to them if they were having slow weeks. Sometimes they would ask me to fill in for them if I was able to. Actually, ask isn't the right word. They would beg me.

They could easily have jacked it all in back then and lived off the dole, but they didn't want to.

To claim that every one of the 13% of the unemployed people in this country do not want to work is naive and ignorant. You obviously have absolutely no idea what you're taking about.

Posting on boards and looking at porn all day may seem like fun, but it gets really tedious after a couple of weeks.
ou may not have any incentive to work, but the vast majority of the population would rather not be on the dole.

Porn never get's boring. Fact.

Cherrycola

Am i right in thinking that a Polish person(or any other person from within the EU), can arrive into Ireland in the morning and claim SW, and receive it, without ever having paid a red cent in tax in this country?
Correct me if im wrong please.

And, for example, an Irish person, who has worked in this country for say, 15 years, paid tax, lost their job and had to move abroad for a few years, then either wants to or has to, return to Ireland, cannot claim anything from SW?? (because they dont have enough credits paid in the "relevant tax year"!!!)

Please tell me thats not the case??:eek::eek:

Terry

Mister men wrote: »

Porn never get's boring. Fact.

Shh. I'm trying to make a point here.
Mentioning the fact that I've spent the last month watching Ashlynn Brooke pornos would negate that.

AlmightyCushion

Terry wrote: »

Shh. I'm trying to make a point here.
Mentioning the fact that I've spent the last month watching Ashlynn Brooke pornos would negate that.

Just googled her. Good choice.

Hail 2 Da Thief

Terry wrote: »

Polish dude who parked his van at the top of my estate 2 weeks ago and was living in it until it was towed away tonight.
It's quite obvious that he wants to stay here, but just can't find work at the moment.

Poor guy!
He must have fu<k all to go home to in Poland if he's living in a car!

marzic

Its a bit fcudk up that anyone who had the talent or drive to run a business and moreso employ people, can have no recourse from the state when the business runs out.

On the question of eec emigrants what else were they goin to do except send the money home. is'nt it money from england and usa that kept generations of people in this country in clothes and food? "good bye johnny dear, and send us all you can". i even sent a few quid home regular for the sibs going to college when i was in uk in the 90's.

RoadKillTs

To claim that every one of the 13% of the unemployed people in this country do not want to work is naive and ignorant. You obviously have absolutely no idea what you're taking about.

Posting on boards and looking at porn all day may seem like fun, but it gets really tedious after a couple of weeks.
ou may not have any incentive to work, but the vast majority of the population would rather not be on the dole.

Firstly Terry I am not talking about all people. Obviously some people do want to work and secondly I am talking about been better of financially on SW than working.

If you calculate how much someone gets paid on a minimum wage job, minus any work expenses (travel e.t.c) and then compare that to what you would get on SW each week, dole plus rent allowance plus medical card you soon find out you are working for very little.

This is what I mean by there been no incentive to work.
I think the Government should introduce better "return to work" schemes such as holding onto their medical card for the first 1/2 years.

Sizzler

squod wrote: »

Relative who works in SW says the cap is €336/family (I think).

Maybe for "basic" benefit but as in the case of the guy who wrote the letter he averaged out the monthly benefits, perhaps to senationalise but its still fact that someone could be cleaning the place out for a few hundred quid a week on the social.

People have needs but there has to be a balance on the handy option versus the neccessary option.

Dusty87

squod wrote: »

Relative who works in SW says the cap is €336/family (I think).

is he the security gaurd? Cos its a lot more than that!!

thebigbiffo

published april 2009 in the Indo:

I recently had a long conversation with a friend of mine who lost his job. He was in a reasonably good job and after a little bit of overtime was earning a gross salary of €35,000 per year.
So I asked him the obvious question of how he was going to cope now with four children to feed and, I have to be honest, the answer startled me.
He was actually a lot better off and now in a position to go out golfing every day while his children are at school.
Frankly, I did not believe him until I sat down and did the sums. On a salary of €35,000, his annual net income after the mini Budget was €28,854, after all deductions.
Now he is on the supplementary welfare allowance which -- with a wife and four children -- gives you €443.90 per week, or €23,083 annually.
As he also has a mortgage, he is entitled to mortgage interest supplement which pays all the interest on your mortgage. In his case, this was €1,200 per month of his €1,500 mortgage, or €14,400 per annum.
He is also entitled to back-to-school and footwear payment of €905 per year for four children, a medical card which is worth, on average, say €500 per year (probably more) and a heating supplement which I cannot quantify.
In total, he now has tax-free income of €38,888, an increase in his net income of €10,034 per year for working on his golf handicap.
Based on the calculations after the mini-Budget, you would need to earn more than €47,000 per year if you have four children to justify continuing to work.
This is even before taking into account the costs of working, such as petrol, car maintenance, tolls, lunches and so on.
Now in any civilised society, and especially in a society in a deep recession with a huge welfare bill, surely the government must give people an incentive to go out and work
Making the child benefit taxable or means tested later this year is just going to make the situation worse and encourage more people to give up work and rely on the State to live.
It could even drive our small economy to collapse as the welfare bill gets bigger and bigger as more people, including myself, ask: why should I bother to go out to work when it is basically costing me money to work?
Unless something radically changes, I will be joining my mate on the golf course very soon.
Andy McNamara
Drogheda, Co Louth
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/now-golfing-pays-better-than-work-1708412.html

it is true that when you average out everything from the dole, rent allowance (or interest being paid on your mortgage), back to school allowance, clothing allowance etc you would come out with that type of money on the dole. couple that with the fact you're not going to be kicked out of your house for a few years or chased badly for your CC bills, loans whatever and you would have a nice comfortable year or two on the scratcher...