Halloween

Jester Minute

Halloween should be avoided by Christians.

Discuss.

My own view: whilst Christian efforts to redeem Halloween are laudable, the thing is so far gone that I think it would be as well to forget it. It'll take more than one or two small boys dressed up as St. Michael the Archangel to redeem what has become a festival of darkness and sin. Having said that, the Catholic Church did redeem and re-order these things before, so perhaps it could work again, though not right now. Christians are too thin on the ground for that.

Background:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-11650152
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11652512
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=2771599

The last link contains links to articles which explain its origins and so forth. Might be best to read it before commenting.

starbelgrade

Jester Minute wrote: »

Halloween should be avoided by Christians.

Discuss.

You sound like a school teacher who was too lazy / hungover to do a class plan.

(Excellent first post btw - well worthy of taking the trouble of re-registering to do so)

Black Swan

At the bewitching hour Halloween transforms into All Saints Day across the pond. What a craic.

maxxie

wow! what a square

PDN

31st of October is Reformation Day. 493 years ago today Luther nailed his 95 theses to the door of the Wittenberg Church, the event that is viewed as the beginning of the Reformation. So I will be celebrating accordingly by throwing inkpots at anyone dressed up as a devil - (here's a link for those who didn't pay attention in history class at school: http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/legend562.html)

Manach

Re: ink wells, have you considered exorcism instead. In that if the prayers don't work the incense holder functions well as an improvised morning star weapon.
My Halloween activities will be confined to re-view some of the excellent BTVS videos.

alex73

I have no problem with Halloween, (eve of Saints)... But the whole american pumpkin, decoration thing no way.... Kids have a 2 euro dress and trick a treat for an hour.. but thats it, there is no way I am going to decorate the house and garden like some of my neighbours.

lmaopml

I always thought Halloween was great fun as a child. I remember being allowed to go out with my friends all dressed up and knock on 'nice' neighbours doors and ask them to 'Help the Halloween Party..'..( It wasn't 'Trick or Treat' at the time ) My mother strayed a few yards behind us with the other mams....and then back to the house for the party and games....It was innocent stuff, and fun too..

My two were dressed as Dracula and a very cute Bumble bee this year...Cheap and cheerful - kinda!:)

BengaLover

The Encyclopedia Americana says: “Elements of the customs connected with Halloween can be traced to a Druid [ancient Celtic priesthood] ceremony in pre-Christian times. The Celts had festivals for two major gods—a sun god and a god of the dead . . . , whose festival was held on November 1, the beginning of the Celtic New Year. The festival of the dead was gradually incorporated into Christian ritual.”

There is nothing Christian about celebrating Halloween.

homer911

BengaLover wrote: »

There is nothing Christian about celebrating Halloween.

Agreed, but try explaining that to innocent(ignorant?) children calling to the door for some sweets!

BengaLover

Most of the children arriving at my door were escorted by their parents!
I hold the same belief regarding Xmas too.. not a christian celebration by any means.

JimiTime

BengaLover wrote: »

Most of the children arriving at my door were escorted by their parents!
I hold the same belief regarding Xmas too.. not a christian celebration by any means.

I agree. They seem to have been Pagan festivals that were 'Christified' by the RCC. It seems that they are now a cultural thing rather than a religious thing. You'll find the religious and non-religious alike indulge in such festivities these days.

I'm undecided on whether a Christian should frown upon such festivals, but Paul did say 'Let no man judge youu........ in respect of a holyday, new moon etc etc'

It seems the context of this scripture though was in relation to the ceremoial laws of the OT. There is certainly nothing intrinsically Christian in such festivals, of that I don't think there is any denying. Its whether partaking in such festivities could be seen as wrong.

One thing is for sure though, the whole mixing paganism into christianity is something that makes me very uneasy. Christmas and Halloween are simply Pagan feasts usurped by Christianity, while Easter seems to be a feast that infultrated the Christian celebration of the death and resurrection of our Lord.

Jurys out for me. I suppose I wouldn't go judging Christians for celebrating them, but I'm not sure if I feel comfortable my self. My concience tells me to stay away tbh.

BengaLover

Its whether partaking in such festivities could be seen as wrong.

The origin of religious celebrations has a bearing on whether they please God or not.
! Corinthinans 10;21 states you cannot drink the cup of the lord and the cup of demons etc..
If something, even a holiday or festival or celebration is not scriptural and is based on lies, tradition, pagan worship etc, then partaking in them is surely not approved by God himself.

Even if Jesus’ disciples had known the exact date of his birth, they would not have celebrated it, The World Book Encyclopedia says, the early Christians “considered the celebration of anyone’s birth to be a pagan custom.”
A person’s worship could be contaminated by false religion as it relates to popular holidays. Consider Christmas, for example. Christmas supposedly commemorates the birth of Jesus Christ, and nearly every religion that claims to be Christian celebrates it. Yet, there is no evidence that the first-century disciples of Jesus observed such a holiday. The book Sacred Origins of Profound Things states: “For two centuries after Christ’s birth, no one knew, and few people cared, exactly when he was born.”

JimiTime

Firstly, you should see by my post that I don't need to be told of the pagan origins of halloween or Christmas. I, and I'd say many will see their origins as Pagan festivals, 'Christified'.

BengaLover wrote: »

The origin of religious celebrations has a bearing on whether they please God or not.
! Corinthinans 10;21 states you cannot drink the cup of the lord and the cup of demons etc..
If something, even a holiday or festival or celebration is not scriptural and is based on lies, tradition, pagan worship etc, then partaking in them is surely not approved by God himself.

The context of the above scripture, is in relation to eating and drinking that which is sacrificed to idols. What part of the Christmas feast is offered up to an idol? Whatever the origins of the festival are, do Christians today offer up their Christmas meal to an idol? Are we not free in Christ? Is the motives of the heart not what matters, rather than legalistic matters of ceremony? So if the Chistmas meal is NOT offered up to an idol, then should I not accept an invite to partake in such a meal?

Even if Jesus’ disciples had known the exact date of his birth, they would not have celebrated it,

Does that indicate it would be wrong to celebrate it?

The World Book Encyclopedia says, the early Christians “considered the celebration of anyone’s birth to be a pagan custom.”

I need more than that. Firstly, just because it was a tradition in a certain culture, does not mean it is intrinsically wrong. Secondly, you need to provide a link to that source and its context. All to often I've seen Jehovahs Witnesses quote something, only to find that when the source is investigated its been completely misrepresented. I'd advise you to do the same investigations if you are getting your info from the Watchtower society.

A person’s worship could be contaminated by false religion as it relates to popular holidays. Consider Christmas, for example. Christmas supposedly commemorates the birth of Jesus Christ, and nearly every religion that claims to be Christian celebrates it. Yet, there is no evidence that the first-century disciples of Jesus observed such a holiday. The book Sacred Origins of Profound Things states: “For two centuries after Christ’s birth, no one knew, and few people cared, exactly when he was born.”

The dates and origins etc are IMO semantical. As a man free in Christ, I do not have to judge or be judged on such insignificant things. However, the REAL question would be the first point of this piece, I.E. Does a persons worship become contaminated by celebrating Christmas etc? If it is shown that yes it is, then it is destructive and thus wrong. If it is either beneficial or even inconsaquential, then it cannot be said to be wrong, and thus people should not be judged on such things. My position, is that these festivals are cultural rather than religious. I can say with certainty that NOT celebrating them is of no consaquence, but the question is, are they destructive in a spiritual context?

BengaLover

What part of the Christmas feast is offered up to an idol? Whatever the origins of the festival are, do Christians today offer up their Christmas meal to an idol?

Anything can become an idol - food, money, material possessions, I didnt mean idol in the sense of an actual statue or something that is prayed to, but if celebrating Xmas detracts from the truth of its real, and very UN - Christian origins, then surely that becomes a form of idol worship in itself?

Does a persons worship become contaminated by celebrating Christmas etc?

I dont see how God could be all too thrilled with people celebrating a holiday based on His son, who died on our behalf, when that holiday not only incorporates pagan tradition based on idol worship, or rather, worship of deities - after all, arent we supposed to not put other Gods before Him, and also worship God in spirit and truth?
IMHO, if somethings' not a truth, then it stands to reason its a lie...

I rather think that given what the Bible says on the subject, that celebrations such as Halloween and Xmas ARE displeasing to God.

garancafan

BengaLover wrote: »

There is nothing Christian about celebrating Halloween.

Thank God.

Fanny Cradock

BengaLover wrote: »

I hold the same belief regarding Xmas too.. not a christian celebration by any means.

Neither are bank holidays, anniversaries, birthdays, concerts, the World Cup and any number of celebrations or events one cares to mention. I don't see the problem with Halloween if it is a wholesome celebration of a child's imagination. My nephew and his friends were so excited at the thoughts of dressing up, going out to collect some sweets and watch a bonfire.

JimiTime

BengaLover wrote: »

Anything can become an idol - food, money, material possessions, I didnt mean idol in the sense of an actual statue or something that is prayed to

Indeed, but again, how is Christmas idolatrous? I can see that its not essential to do as a Christian, in fact it has little value as far as I can see. However, the jump you make is to call it idoltrous and even destructive. I want to know the reasoning for such a jump?

but if celebrating Xmas detracts from the truth

What truth? The truth of Christ being our prophesised messiah? His death and glorious ressurrection? That we are saved through him? That HE is in fact The Living Truth? What is it that a Christian does if he celebrates Christmas that detracts from the truth? As i said, its a leap to go from, 'Its not essential, or required to celebrate it' to 'Its spiritually destructive'.

of its real, and very UN - Christian origins, then surely that becomes a form of idol worship in itself?

Tell me, do you have any issue with the wearing of a wedding ring? Do you use the Roman calendar? etc etc. Something being of Pagan origin does not denote idolatry. If a person offers gifts to their siblings to glorify the god Saturn, then that is idolatrous. So if we live in a culture where the 25th of December is a day dedicated to Saturn and all festivities are about glorifying the god Saturn, then we have an issue. However, if we live in a culture, where Christmas is seen as a celebration of Christ, then is it still idolatrous? If so, please detail how?

I dont see how God could be all too thrilled with people celebrating a holiday based on His son, who died on our behalf, when that holiday not only incorporates pagan tradition based on idol worship, or rather, worship of deities - after all, arent we supposed to not put other Gods before Him, and also worship God in spirit and truth?

Again, where are other gods put before him? There are many cultural things we have in society that have origins that are not Godly. However, Christ is about ones heart. When I say I can't wait for friday, its because its the weekend and I'm off work. that is harmless. If I say, I can't wait 'til Friday as that is the day of my god Frigg, then that is idolatrous. Equally, I can support a football team or listen to a band innocently. However, my heart dictates if they become idols. I can even make an idol of Christian things like the bible, or the bread and wine at the Lords evening meal. So if I can make idols of things that are Christian, it stands to reason, that it is the heart that makes something an idol or not.

IMHO, if somethings' not a truth, then it stands to reason its a lie...

Again, what is not the truth?

I rather think that given what the Bible says on the subject, that celebrations such as Halloween and Xmas ARE displeasing to God.

Could you detail these things the bible says on the subject AFTER you have responded to the points above?

prinz

I love Hallowe'en. When I was a kid we always had a 'party' at home, when I say party I mean lots of fruit, apples, pears, oranges, raisins etc and lots of nuts, bobbing for apples and old 50 pence pieces. Sweets/chocolate would have been fairly rare. Highlight was a homemade brack and tea. Yummy. Never really got into the whole dressing up/decorating etc. For us it was more of just an Autumn celebration than anything to do with ghosts/goblins/etc.

Did nothing for it this year though.:o (except the brack, had to make do with a Tesco version )

Zombrex

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Neither are bank holidays, anniversaries, birthdays, concerts, the World Cup and any number of celebrations or events one cares to mention. I don't see the problem with Halloween if it is a wholesome celebration of a child's imagination. My nephew and his friends were so excited at the thoughts of dressing up, going out to collect some sweets and watch a bonfire.

Something I've wondered for a while but this thread reminded me.

What is the modern understanding of the rules against idolatry? Is it literal worshiping of other dieties or is it a more general idea not to be overly distracted from God and worship of God?

You hear things like shopping centers are the new churches, but people don't literally worship at The Gap.

Would a Christian such as yourself see it as a rule against worshiping other religions and dieties or a more general rule about not being distracted from God by false goals?

Dewdropdeb

I don't like Halloween personally, but it's not like innocent kids are actually out there communing with the devil. My two will have another 4-5 years of it and then it's over. It's just a bit of craic for kids.

I understand what some are saying about Pagan origins in Christmas and Easter, however it doesn't bother me in the slightest, as I suspect the reasoning for this was for evangelical purposes. In order to convert people it was necessary to incorporate some of their customs into a new liturgy to make things understandable or accessible to them. You have to think at the time most people were illiterate and symbolism was extremely significant to them. If they needed to keep their ostara eggs or yule trees to be saved, then I say fair play. Obviously it worked. If these traditions have stood the test of time, so be it. As long as we recognise the true Christian meaning behind these holidays, what are a few decorations or traditions that may have originated with Pagans?

My issue is with the secular culture telling us the kids can't sing religious Christmas carols at school and so forth. If that's the case, why even celebrate it publicly in the first place? Christmas is a celebration of the birth of Christ and if secularists have a problem with us celebrating that, then I'll expect to see them all at work on the 25th. Tolerance is a two way street... if I have to be tolerant of your beliefs, you sure as heck better be tolerant of mine.

BengaLover

how is Christmas idolatrous

Ok, maybe I used too strong a terminology.

What is it that a Christian does if he celebrates Christmas that detracts from the truth?

ONE example:When the so-called three wise men—who in fact were astrologers—visited, Jesus and his family were no longer living in a stable. Time had passed, and the family was living in a house.Matthew 2:1,11
ALSO, the bible does not say how many astrologers there were.
AND, Jesus wasnt even born in December! December 25th was chosen because people wanted the date to coincide with the pagan Roman festival marking the ‘birthday of the unconquered sun'. Religious leaders wanted to covert pagans, and thats why they adopted this very pagan festival!

In his book The Trouble With Christmas, author Tom Flynn set out conclusions reached after years spent researching Christmas:

"An enormous number of traditions we now associate with Christmas have their roots in pre-Christian pagan religious traditions. Some of these have social, sexual, or cosmological connotations that might lead educated, culturally sensitive moderns to discard the traditions once they have understood their roots more clearly."—Page 19.
After presenting a mass of supporting information, Flynn returns to the basic point: "One of the great ironies of Christmas is how little of its content is truly Christian. Once we dispose of the pre-Christian elements, most of what remains is post-Christian, rather than authentically Christian, in origin."—Page 155.

"I have never been able to reconcile myself to the gaieties of the Christmas season. They have appeared to me to be so inconsistent with the life and teaching of Jesus."—Mohandas K. Gandhi.

However, if we live in a culture, where Christmas is seen as a celebration of Christ, then is it still idolatrous? If so, please detail how?

Is Christmas seen as a celebration of Christ? I dont think it is.

Again, what is not the truth?

See above.

Could you detail these things the bible says on the subject AFTER you have responded to the points above?

Certainly - Colossians 2:8, Paul warns about traditions of men and empty deceptions.
2 Corinthians 6:14,15 - what sharing does light have with darkness..
James 1:27 talks about a form of worship that is not defiled.

So, for me,there is no reason to expect that Christmas should go any way except away from pure Christianity. While modern Christmas abounds in gaudy commercialism and greed the fact is that true Christians never expected to celebrate Jesus’ birth. The Bible puts more emphasis on the ransom that Christ provided by his death and resurrection to heaven. Matthew 20:28

Fanny Cradock

Wicknight wrote: »

What is the modern understanding of the rules against idolatry? Is it literal worshiping of other dieties or is it a more general idea not to be overly distracted from God and worship of God?

I would imagine that the orthodox answer would be something along the lines of, "the modern understanding is one with the ancient understanding". Scratch the surface and you will find that we are at heart the same now as we were then. Slaves to the same desires. But there are 2 billion of us Christians out there - give or take - so it depends who you ask.

Wicknight wrote: »

You hear things like shopping centers are the new churches, but people don't literally worship at The Gap.

Of course! But we aren't taking about people engaging in any type of active worship outside Gap shops (though come to think of it, perhaps there were such obvious displays when the iPad was launched). Rather, it is our collective and willing obsession with a manufactured desire that takes precedence over more important things. It is, in other words, a lifestyle choice based on mistaken priories - selfish ones.

Wicknight wrote: »

Would a Christian such as yourself see it as a rule against worshiping other religions and dieties or a more general rule about not being distracted from God by false goals?

I'm not sure there is necessarily a distinction from the perspective of a monotheist. A false god is a false god. I will, however, temper this by saying that I don't have any problems with a faithful Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, Humanist etc. who is actually selflessly working towards some goodly (or Godly) end. Such people are to be applauded. I don't think that the same can be said about somebody obsessed with mammon.

But, hey, I'm probably no better then the next man. Even if I occasionally try.

JimiTime

BengaLover wrote: »

Ok, maybe I used too strong a terminology.

No problem.

ONE example:When the so-called three wise men—who in fact were astrologers—visited, Jesus and his family were no longer living in a stable. Time had passed, and the family was living in a house.Matthew 2:1,11
ALSO, the bible does not say how many astrologers there were.

But what about the Christians who are not ignorant? As I said in my first post on the subject, its more a cultural thing than a religious thing. Being picky about the Magi (The 3 figure I assume based on the 3 gifts they brought) is hardly taking away from 'The Truth'. Presumtuous to say 3? Yes, but to use such details to condemn celebrating it based on, IMO, pretty irrelevant points to the Christian message seems a bit more like pedantry than any solid spiritual concern.

It reminds me of the 'uproar' about Jesus perhaps being impaled on a stake of wood rather than a crossbeam. One must ask, 'Are we really serious here? Are we truly thinking such detail is of any great importance to Christs message, or to us living the Christian message?' I'm looking for something of spiritual significance.

Remember, I don't celebrate these feasts, but I also do not presently condemn their celebration by true Christians. In this discussion I'm looking for some spiritual reason how such a celebration by a true Christian is spiritually destructive? As someone who knows some great Christian people who DO celebrate Christmas, I don't see the damage, and am seeing if you could provide some enlightenment.

AND, Jesus wasnt even born in December!

Any Christian with any knowledge on their faith knows this.

December 25th was chosen because people wanted the date to coincide with the pagan Roman festival marking the ‘birthday of the unconquered sun'. Religious leaders wanted to covert pagans, and thats why they adopted this very pagan festival!

What is it, that makes a festival pagan? As I mentioned earlier, like the wedding ring, the roman calendar etc, these may be pagan in origin, but so is alot of our culture. God after all selected only the seed of Abraham to build a nation from. We are part of the gentile nation grafted onto the tree (Israel), and many of our cultural history is a throwback to a pagan time. Its our hearts though that dictate if what we do is pagan or not.

In his book The Trouble With Christmas, author Tom Flynn set out conclusions reached after years spent researching Christmas:

"An enormous number of traditions we now associate with Christmas have their roots in pre-Christian pagan religious traditions. Some of these have social, sexual, or cosmological connotations that might lead educated, culturally sensitive moderns to discard the traditions once they have understood their roots more clearly."—Page 19.
After presenting a mass of supporting information, Flynn returns to the basic point: "One of the great ironies of Christmas is how little of its content is truly Christian. Once we dispose of the pre-Christian elements, most of what remains is post-Christian, rather than authentically Christian, in origin."—Page 155.

Again, I know that. Yule logs, decorating Fir tree's, mistletoe, exchanging presents, december 25th. All Pagan in origin. However, can it be said, that a Christian, and I mean a genuine christian, is doing something wrong or spiritually destructive in partaking in such things in a modern context where their Pagan origins have long since been consigned to history? Much like our use of the names of gods of bygone times in our calendar.

Is Christmas seen as a celebration of Christ? I dont think it is.

To a Christian (a real one, not merely a cultural one) it most certainly is.

Certainly - Colossians 2:8, Paul warns about traditions of men and empty deceptions.
2 Corinthians 6:14,15 - what sharing does light have with darkness..
James 1:27 talks about a form of worship that is not defiled.

Again, I must call you up on context. I can use similar contextual quote digging like so from verse 16 of the same chapter:

'do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.'

The Collosians piece you refer to is about being taken captive by hollow and deceptive philosophy, but that certainly does not describe Christmas in relation to a faithful Christian does it? A faithful Christian does not believe in this nonsense about good will to all men once a year. They know that a Christian extends his Christianity to 365 days a year. Culturally, I find Christmas has little to do with being christian, which again I have iterated from the beginning. The problem I have with your stance, is that it is then a leap to say that though its not to do with being Christian, its actually destructive to a Christian.


Should I refuse an invite to a family gathering on the basis of it being a Christmas dinner? The food has not been offered to an idol, nor is the feast a celebration of a pagan god, so whats the problem?

So, for me,there is no reason to expect that Christmas should go any way except away from pure Christianity.

Sounds a little like the language the Judaisers of early Christianity would use:) What IS Christianity in your opinion?

While modern Christmas abounds in gaudy commercialism and greed

I agree.

the fact is that true Christians never expected to celebrate Jesus’ birth.

Early is the word I'd personally use there. Again I agree, that it is neither asked for nor required. That does not make it an offence though.

The Bible puts more emphasis on the ransom that Christ provided by his death and resurrection to heaven. Matthew 20:28

I most certainly agree, but that is not the issue. The issue is whether it damages us as Christians, if it is actually wrong to celebrate it, or if it damages Christianity as a whole.

I think its worthy of discussion, but I think the Jehovahs Witness approach to it is all wrong. It gets caught up in the pretty insignificant pedantics, like the whole 'stauros' thing with the cross, and doesn't concentrate on the things that matter. Namely, what I've just written in bold above.

BengaLover

I can tell you why I cannot in all faith celebrate such holidays, but cannot tell you why YOU should not.

In this discussion I'm looking for some spiritual reason how such a celebration by a true Christian is spiritually destructive? As someone who knows some great Christian people who DO celebrate Christmas, I don't see the damage, and am seeing if you could provide some enlightenment.

Spiritual or scriptural reason?
A few of my reasons are:

In the book of Exodus, the Israelites took on an Egyptian religious practice, and gave it a new name, but they were punished by God for this, as he disapproved.
In Ephesians 5:10,11 we are warned to keep making sure of what is acceptable to the Lord and to quit sharing in works belonging to darkness.

How can a Christian who loves truth and is commanded to be honest promote falsehood....as this is to me what celebrating feasts such as xmas and halloween do.

Revelation 22:15 warns about people carrying on a lie and what their outcome would be.
PARTICIPATING in xmas gift giving, the meal, putting up decorations, sending cards, all for me would be the 'carrying on a lie'.

Again, I must call you up on context. I can use similar contextual quote digging like so from verse 16 of the same chapter:

'do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.'

Paul here was referring to festivals that had been required by God’s Law to ancient Israel. The Christians in Colossae were to let no on judge their standing before God on the basis of observance of festivals of the Mosaic Law.

What IS Christianity in your opinion?

Christianity was founded by Jesus Christ, so being a Christian means holding fast to his teachings, practicing what he instructed, having faith in the ransom.
The very nature of Christianity demands that we show an interest in others and 'work what is good towards all'.

Zombrex

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I would imagine that the orthodox answer would be something along the lines of, "the modern understanding is one with the ancient understanding". Scratch the surface and you will find that we are at heart the same now as we were then. Slaves to the same desires. But there are 2 billion of us Christians out there - give or take - so it depends who you ask.

Well I meant modern as in not in the age of pagan religions. You aren't surrounded by statues of Zeus, or a society pressuring you to kill a goat in a temple to Athena (at least I nope not! )

The risk that a Christian would literally start worshiping another deity seems unlikely.

So where do these idols fit in modern society with its shopping centers and film stars.

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Of course! But we aren't taking about people engaging in any type of active worship outside Gap shops (though come to think of it, perhaps there were such obvious displays when the iPad was launched). Rather, it is our collective and willing obsession with a manufactured desire that takes precedence over more important things. It is, in other words, a lifestyle choice based on mistaken priories - selfish ones.

That is what I was wondering, idolatry as more than just a literal worship of idols.

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I'm not sure there is necessarily a distinction from the perspective of a monotheist. A false god is a false god.

True but equally a god is described as a god, false or not. The Gap isn't considered a god.

Rather following false goals such as the accumulation of stuff or wealth, the preoccupation with say fame or pleasing a famous person ("worshiping" say Take That).

I think that was your point above.

Jester Minute

BengaLover wrote: »

Jesus wasnt even born in December! December 25th was chosen because people wanted the date to coincide with the pagan Roman festival marking the ‘birthday of the unconquered sun'. Religious leaders wanted to covert pagans, and thats why they adopted this very pagan festival!

Pope Benedict addressed this date of Christmas thing in his book, The Spirit of the Liturgy. It basically comes down to the fact that from that point onwards, it gets lighter in the world, hence the date was chosen for the birthday of the Light of the World who came into the world to enlighten men. You'd need to read the book though. He debunks the popular myth. I gave my copy away so I can't provide the relevant paragraphs.

lmaopml

I think most Christians do know that December 25th is a pagan festival that was incorporated and marked as a symbolic celebration of the birth of Jesus. That's no surprise really. It was 'clever' and a somewhat peaceful way of introducing Christianity without tearing down what had gone before, but changing it's meaning to point towards one God and being understanding and humane within a cultural context.

It survived, and is now celebrated by Christians and various Pagans alike - somewhat differently though...

So is Hallowe'en. It's not surprising that Christianity spread and incorporated these things to some extent.

I would seperate the idea of Hallowe'en and worship of 'false gods', I think for the vast majority of folk who are 'Christian' it's more like a festival of sorts, along the lines of New Years, it's only human to celebrate the seasons and the change they bring, it's fun for children, it's fun for adults and it's really got nothing to do with worship of false gods at all, it has progressed and found a home - no harm either.....It's just, 'fun'!

I don't think Jesus was against fun..

PDN

lmaopml wrote: »

I don't think Jesus was against fun..

Neither do I, but unfortunately some of his followers are.

Fanny Cradock

Hehe

lmaopml

lmaopml...

JimiTime

BengaLover wrote: »

I can tell you why I cannot in all faith celebrate such holidays, but cannot tell you why YOU should not.

Thats fine, but you realise then that this position confirms that its a matter of individual concience, and not something a Christian should be judged on?

Spiritual or scriptural reason?

Well the accusation, is that due to it being founded on festivities that are Pagan, it itself is pagan and WRONG for a Christian to do. Based on your above 'concience' scenario, it would suggest that no solid arguement is forthcoming. Rather, and quite legitimately IMO, you say that YOU cannot in good concience partake. I personally have absolutely no issue whatsoever with such a stand. However, when it becomes doctrinal, for instance, and correct me if I'm wrong here, but the JW's could disfellowship a member for celebrating Christmas? If thats your stand, then it is NOT a matter of concience, but rather a matter of doctrine. One is stipulating that it is sinful and against Christ.

A few of my reasons are:

In the book of Exodus, the Israelites took on an Egyptian religious practice, and gave it a new name, but they were punished by God for this, as he disapproved.

Could you elaborate? I am aware that the Israelites and Hebrews were constantly worshipping false Gods, and being 'polluted' by the nations. My understanding is that when they took on Egyption religious practice or somesuch, they did so fully. As in they actually 'Had a false god before them'

In Ephesians 5:10,11 we are warned to keep making sure of what is acceptable to the Lord and to quit sharing in works belonging to darkness.

May I once again bring your attention to context. Not to be offensive, but as a humble advice, I find this type of out of context quoting in alot of JW literature. Be it a biblical quote or otherwise. Again, some humble advice, would be to investigate any quotes like this to make sure that they are really saying what the writer is telling you they are saying.

Here is the chapter in context:
Ephesians 5
Follow God’s example, therefore, as dearly loved children 2 and walk in the way of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
3 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. 4 Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. 5 For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.[a] 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. 7 Therefore do not be partners with them.

8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light 9 (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) 10 and find out what pleases the Lord. 11 Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.

Now its clear in this passage what Paul is saying. He's talking about Immoral, greedy people. Indulging in such such behaviour is warned against. To quote this is putting the cart before the horse in relation to our conversation, as you have not established that Christmas is immoral etc.

How can a Christian who loves truth and is commanded to be honest promote falsehood....as this is to me what celebrating feasts such as xmas and halloween do.

I believe these feasts have absolutely no intrinsic value to either Christianity nor the individual Christian, and of that I'm sure we both agree. However, in the context of Christmas, how is someone promoting falsehood? To the non-believer and the ignorant or 'cultural christian' alike, Christmas is just this festival that happens once a year. They stuff their face, exchange presents, maybe do a bit of charity and watch some sentimental movies on the telly. To the genuine Christian though, its actually a time they celebrate our saviours birth. Yes, I know its not something that needs to be done, but what exactly is the offence? What principal is being offended against? I reiterate again, while I see it as being un-necessary, its a leap then to condemn those who engage in it as being 'impure' Chrisians etc. This is the gap you need to bridge in your arguement. Unless you see it as an individuals conciencious decision.

Revelation 22:15 warns about people carrying on a lie and what their outcome would be.

PARTICIPATING in xmas gift giving, the meal, putting up decorations, sending cards, all for me would be the 'carrying on a lie'.

What lie? Jesus was born was he not? All the tree's and holly and what not have never been explained to me to represent anything Christian, so whats the lie?

Paul here was referring to festivals that had been required by God’s Law to ancient Israel. The Christians in Colossae were to let no on judge their standing before God on the basis of observance of festivals of the Mosaic Law.

Exactly, thats my point about context. My point being, that one should always check the context if people quote you snippets. If you read the post, you'll see I used my purposely out of context quote to make that point.

Christianity was founded by Jesus Christ, so being a Christian means holding fast to his teachings, practicing what he instructed, having faith in the ransom, and in all his promises
The very nature of Christianity demands that we show an interest in others and 'work what is good towards all'.

A good definition. Now taking the definition above, can we say that a genuine Christian who celebrates the birth of Christ is commiting a sin?