Help! Silver Zerg vs. Protoss

pixelburp

So I finally got promoted to the Silver leagues, and it's funny the shift in matchups I started getting. Whereas in Bronze it was all Terran & the MMM ball, now I face a load of Zerg & Toss players & winning about 1 game in 15 against the toss - just can't get a handle on them at all. So I'm looking for some advice & silver-proof strats and advice!

I haven't yet been saving these replays so sorry if there's nothing to go on. If the Toss is aggressive with stalkers/sentries from the off, then I lose. If he walls-in then I get time to build up my forces before I lose (usually stalkers/immortals/colossi). When he walls-in I have been going for 14hatch thinking a good economic boost midgame might help roll out the roaches/speedlings but still - same result.

Any Zerg players out there with any tips? I'll upload some replays soon

nesf

Your last 10-15 games are in the unsaved folder when you go to Replays. From there you can choose to save them and keep them.

You need to upload a few, it sounds like you're just being out-macroed mid game by Toss.

neil_

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Zerg_Strategy

Pick one of the ZvP ones, practice it against the AI until you can consistently execute it well, and then go play with it. Try and have a rough idea of what to do after the intial build and what upgrades are important, but honestly if you have a good build for each matchup, reasonably good basic mechanics, and know how to deal with cannon rushes 6pools etc, you should get out of silver league pretty easily.

pixelburp

As it happens I've been playing today & mostly gone up against Terrans, so there's not too many recent 'toss losses in my history; here's the most recent attached anyway. He saw how close I was, went 2gate and I was penned in for most of the game before succumbing to Void rays of all things. Not sure how to react to early toss pressure

@neil_ - yeah I have been using the Team Liquid wiki for ideas and build orders but I'm not exactly sure what's good for Silver level and what isn't

Bicky

I will watch this game and alt tab out to write as it goes along.

First off, its not a big deal but get rid of the extractor trick. just do 9 overlord.
Hotkey all your hatches to 1 and all your queens to 2. Press 2 then v and click on the hatch. the closest queen will inject. That way is the most efficient to keep pumping those larve. The more larve the more options which is the big difference between bronze and silver zerg players.

Why did you build the two creep colonies? 2 drones + 2 * cost of build + the loss of minerals the drones would have been harvesting brings the cost to at least 300. 300 minerals is another queen and 6 zerglings.

Why did you move the colonies? They have a huge advantage from a cliff where they have sight over the enemy. Plus they operator better together than spread out like you had them.

Eeek another creep colony. At least you moved them back to the cliff.

Soon as those zerglings have speed you have to use it. Remember that zealots are slow as feck.
He did not wall in so you should take your lings and run right past his entrance and go straight for his mineral line. Dont bother to fight his army because you will lose. He will freak about losing his probes and lose his ability/willingness to attack.

You have too many minerals and not enough gas. As a zerg you need to expand early. 14 hatch is what i do vs terran or toss but this can be risky. Its best for a newbie to go 14 pool and take the expansion around 21. With this expansion and a second queen you have far more larve. More larve = more options.

I think your grasp of the game is good for a silver player but you need to focus on improving a few fundamentals.In the end you lose to two void rays because you have no anti air. If you had scouted earlier you would have seen he was going air and been ready with hydras. Get the early expansion, do not go for unnecessary immobile defence, keep the pressure on by attacking as early as possible. Use the mobility of the zerg army for hit and run attacks. Expand and inject larve.
Good luck.

TheDoc

I'm not a Zerg player but that was seriously good anaylises

Might send you some of my games for Terran advice :P

nesf

Not a Zerg player but from playing Toss:

When you scouted the 2 Gate opening you could have thrown down an early Roach Warren to give you some better chunky tanky units to push back the early Gateway push with. Early Roaches are very annoying to deal with with a 2 Gate opening.

If you're going to stay with Zerglings, harass with them. Force him to pull his forces back to base. If he expands after setting up the contain (which he should) then you should be able to shut down that expansion until he draws much of his main force back.


Most importantly, you absolutely need to scout his base after the initial pressure. He has to transition off 2 Gate and it's very important to see what he's going for. Phoenix/Void Ray, Collussi or High Templars are the main options available unless they go for a 4 gate all-in versus you. Muta/Ling is a fairly decent composition against all of these, except you *really* need to Magic Box your Mutas over the HTs if they go HT heavy to prevent them being stormed. Just move an Overlord in there and have a poke around. It's worth the sacrifice.

neil_

pixelburp wrote: »

@neil_ - yeah I have been using the Team Liquid wiki for ideas and build orders but I'm not exactly sure what's good for Silver level and what isn't

Just pick one and do it!

In that replay you posted at 7:30 you had around 1k minerals and 200 gas in the bank, because you had no plan for how to spend it. I'm guessing you probably hadn't even planned to gather it, you just made drones and extractors because that's what you're supposed to do.

What a build order does is give you a plan so that as long as your execution is good (and that's probably going to be your weak point for a while) you don't have to worry about that kind of thing, and when you lose it's much easier to pinpoint why. If you don't have a plan for the game then you don't know what you should be doing at any point in the game, so then when you watch the replay it's very hard to tell what it was that you weren't doing. Like in that replay, obviously you weren't spending your resources well but is that because you didn't get lair early enough, or you didn't spawn larvae enough or you should have built another hatchery or a million other things...

For example if you pick a build order that includes an early expansion, and then when you go to expand there's a load of zealots there stopping you so you have 300 minerals banked up it's very easy to see why you have those minerals and then you can say "how do I scout this and deal with it". But if you just find yourself with 300 minerals and say "hmm I should expand with this, oh wait no there's zealots there" then you don't know what the problem is. Of course you'll lose games while you're figuring out how to scout and deal with stuff stopping you from expanding, but you'll be making progress rather than just mucking around. That's when advice like don't build spinecrawlers too early or get an earlier roach warren becomes useful, i.e. when you actually know what the problem is.

I imagine the 5 roach rush would suit you pretty well because you get some units before you have to worry about expanding and you should be attacking before any shenanigans with dark templars or void rays pop up, but like I said any established build will do.

nesf

neil_ wrote: »

Just pick one and do it!

In that replay you posted at 7:30 you had around 1k minerals and 200 gas in the bank, because you had no plan for how to spend it. I'm guessing you probably hadn't even planned to gather it, you just made drones and extractors because that's what you're supposed to do.

What a build order does is give you a plan so that as long as your execution is good (and that's probably going to be your weak point for a while) you don't have to worry about that kind of thing, and when you lose it's much easier to pinpoint why. If you don't have a plan for the game then you don't know what you should be doing at any point in the game, so then when you watch the replay it's very hard to tell what it was that you weren't doing. Like in that replay, obviously you weren't spending your resources well but is that because you didn't get lair early enough, or you didn't spawn larvae enough or you should have built another hatchery or a million other things...

For example if you pick a build order that includes an early expansion, and then when you go to expand there's a load of zealots there stopping you so you have 300 minerals banked up it's very easy to see why you have those minerals and then you can say "how do I scout this and deal with it". But if you just find yourself with 300 minerals and say "hmm I should expand with this, oh wait no there's zealots there" then you don't know what the problem is. Of course you'll lose games while you're figuring out how to scout and deal with stuff stopping you from expanding, but you'll be making progress rather than just mucking around. That's when advice like don't build spinecrawlers too early or get an earlier roach warren becomes useful, i.e. when you actually know what the problem is.

I imagine the 5 roach rush would suit you pretty well because you get some units before you have to worry about expanding and you should be attacking before any shenanigans with dark templars or void rays pop up, but like I said any established build will do.

Also with any build you need to have practiced a few transitions for common problems you face. i.e. if you're going for a fast early expand you need to have a plan on how you'll deal with very early aggression. Ideally a practiced plan and an efficient one.

e.g. scout with ninth worker, hang around, if you see a second warpgate before cybernetics core versus Protoss throw down an early Roach Warren. See a Reactored barracks with a fast Factory being made throw down a Spine Crawler or two to help against the inevitable Hellions and tech to Roaches again. See a Forge Fast Expand from a Protoss, double expand against him and similar. (not so sure about the last one)

pixelburp

Cheers for the advice guys

Bicky wrote: »

I will watch this game and alt tab out to write as it goes along.

First off, its not a big deal but get rid of the extractor trick. just do 9 overlord.

Yeah I'm not sure why I did that because I ordinarily don't, so you can assume that doesn't happen often.

Bicky wrote: »

Hotkey all your hatches to 1 and all your queens to 2. Press 2 then v and click on the hatch. the closest queen will inject. That way is the most efficient to keep pumping those larve. The more larve the more options which is the big difference between bronze and silver zerg players.

I have my hatches on 5 & queens on 6 - I usually do inject & learnt about that trick with the closest hatch. I do neglect sometimes, usually when under pressure

Bicky wrote: »

You have too many minerals and not enough gas. As a zerg you need to expand early. 14 hatch is what i do vs terran or toss but this can be risky. Its best for a newbie to go 14 pool and take the expansion around 21. With this expansion and a second queen you have far more larve. More larve = more options.

Generally most of my games are just that - 14pool / 21 hatch, or 14 hatch on a large map where I see he hasn't scouted, or is walling in. Where I find great difficulty though are maps like that first replay where the distance between players is stupidly close. Bar 6/8pool Zerg I don't see how to counter that speed as the toss' slowness doesn't count with distances that short! The only option then seems to be spineCrawlers & sure that feels like inviting the other guy to tech up and pound you.

Bicky wrote: »

Use the mobility of the zerg army for hit and run attacks. Expand and inject larve.
Good luck.

Cheers; like I said my record against Terran & Zerg is allright (though dear Jesus Zerg mirrors are borrrrrring games) - I mean currently I'm 8th in my league so it's not all bleak. If I could figure out the Protoss I'd be Gold soon enough I think!

So here's another loss to a Silver Toss - any thoughts? Now I know that I lost my scout very early but I had a good sense of what his build was. Was it that I never really attacked his base - could my roaming force have taken his mass stalkers? Looking at the replay perhaps I could & that would have been GG then

Bicky

Ok full disclosure here. I played sc1 a lot years ago but only recently got into sc2. I am currently only fourth in gold so i am not a lot better than you. It is easy to watch a replay and criticise so i wont put any of mine up I think your play is where i was a month ago so i have learned some things you need to know.
Also its 3am and i am drunk
I am giving another alt tab analysis.
Why build the first two sets of zerglings? Your overlord nearly died so you seen the canon. Toss invested in immobile defence therefore he has no attack force. Perfect, expand and build drones.

So you get the expansion. Great, but then you build two spine crawlers. No need for them at this point.

Banelings are not the way to go vs toss imo. Great against mass marines but completely ****e vs stalkers. Pump roaches, they are hard as nails.

You are not injecting larve enough. I was the exact same but learning to constantly hit that inject will make the world of difference. Any spare larve can make drones. Your expansion is there but at 13:30 there is only 2 drones on it so completely useless. Pull half the drones off your main and stick them on the expansion. Every time you build attacking units build some drones if you have spare minerals. They will soon pay for themselves. Incidentally learning to get that third and fourth expansion is the next big step, the one i am struggling with.

At this point you have roaches and bane/zerglings and you are getting an carpice upgrade. Great but you also have a spire. Are you going ground or air? Mutas become powerful for harass once in a group of 7/8 i find. At this point you have three. No real use and you put a load of resources into building the spire and then building the mutas. Much better idea would have been to go mass roach. He has lots of stalkers, which fail big time to lings/roaches with speed. Get a hydra den in case you see air. If you do then pump hydras.

At this stage you have overlord speed. Why not get the drop ability? that got me out of silver. You sent that overseer in to fly around with impunity. Dropping overlords to kill probes could do the same. For extra effect stage an attack at his entrance just before you drop to lure his units out.

In this game as in the last you never attacked. You waited to be attacked. terrans can do that but zerg cannot. Fair enough he went cannons but you should think, cannons? how to get around them? Drop or mutas?

And last, but not least, be gracious in defeat. Give that gg

Jonny7

Go to the wiki site and look at the 5 roach build

Write it down on a piece of paper and try it out vs easy Protoss ai

Do it 4 times, then the 5th time do it without the paper

Not so much fun I know

Now go play a game, 5 roach rush, if the initial rush isn't successful, expand and try to produce as many roaches as you can constantly battering him


Once you get used to all this, then vary your build to add in speedlings or mutas etc

pixelburp

Bicky wrote: »

Also its 3am and i am drunk

Best way to play

Bicky wrote: »

Why build the first two sets of zerglings? Your overlord nearly died so you seen the canon. Toss invested in immobile defence therefore he has no attack force. Perfect, expand and build drones.

So you get the expansion. Great, but then you build two spine crawlers. No need for them at this point.

Hmm good point, not sure why I built those; generally I build 1/2 lings because the idea of having no forces before 20food seems ... uncomfortable haha. Ditto the crawlers.

Bicky wrote: »

You are not injecting larve enough. [...] Pull half the drones off your main and stick them on the expansion. Every time you build attacking units build some drones if you have spare minerals. They will soon pay for themselves. Incidentally learning to get that third and fourth expansion is the next big step, the one i am struggling with.

KK fair enough (just snipping your post for length, no offence ); that macro play is hard to judge sometimes - do I build units or do I build drones? What's the maximum number of larvae you can have outside a single hatch btw? Can I just keep injecting & the numbers go up and up?

Bicky wrote: »

[...]Much better idea would have been to go mass roach. He has lots of stalkers, which fail big time to lings/roaches with speed. Get a hydra den in case you see air. If you do then pump hydras.

Yeah, I'm getting the sense from here & elsewhere that against Toss, a 60/40 army of Roaches/Hydras are the way to go.

Bicky wrote: »

At this stage you have overlord speed. Why not get the drop ability? that got me out of silver. You sent that overseer in to fly around with impunity. Dropping overlords to kill probes could do the same. For extra effect stage an attack at his entrance just before you drop to lure his units out.

I take it you mean banelings? Or just lings to eco harass? good point though I should have thought of that. I like using the overseer to halt production as it causes panic

Bicky wrote: »

In this game as in the last you never attacked. You waited to be attacked. terrans can do that but zerg cannot. Fair enough he went cannons but you should think, cannons? how to get around them? Drop or mutas?
And last, but not least, be gracious in defeat. Give that gg

Haha, I do generally GG, but sometimes it's like "gah, feck it, next game". Could be worse, got a stream of "FU" and "cheater" from a Bronze the other night, fun times

nesf

Bicky wrote: »

Why build the first two sets of zerglings?

Two main reasons for this:

a) Shut down scouting probes. Make them work for their intel.

b) Testing the front to see if he's still turtling or has expanded etc.

Even against a passive Toss, a single set of zerglings have their uses.