dosing for the winter..

dasheriff

Well lads the cattle are going in today id say this place is swimming, i was just wondering what do ye use to dose them, whats the best and do ye do it exactly after the 3 weeks?.
I always used an injection but tried a different brand last year and it never worked as far as i could see..

vanderbadger

used the closamectin pour on last year and plan to again..although vet told me recently that rumen fluke is a big issue this year so dont know, have a few cattle that didnt thrive great so maybe i should give them a shot of zanil

LostCovey

vanderbadger wrote: »

used the closamectin pour on last year and plan to again..although vet told me recently that rumen fluke is a big issue this year so dont know, have a few cattle that didnt thrive great so maybe i should give them a shot of zanil

Hi Vanderbadger

A neighbour who works in a meat factory during the week told me that 90% of cattle livers are being condemned with liver fluke this autumn. Common things are still common.. There's a lot of hype about rumen fluke which sell s Zanil. Liver fluke is way more common, way more dangerous, and Zanil is not much use for that - it only kills adult liver fluke.

LostCovey

whelan1

our rep told me to do cows with levamas diamond at drying off and do them with endospec 10% the day they calve so both fluke are covered , getting fed up deknuckling myself at this stage:mad:

vanderbadger

dasheriff wrote: »

Well lads the cattle are going in today id say this place is swimming,
+ 1
I have a gang of them huddled around the gate, in this evening i think

whelan1

my dad always says "why is always lashing rain when we go to bring them in" puts everyone in a bad mood

vanderbadger

whelan1 wrote: »

my dad always says "why is always lashing rain when we go to bring them in" puts everyone in a bad mood

between the rain and a well i had drilled which is spilling water around the yard you would think its monsoon here

5live

Keep an eye on what you are useing. There is no product approved for use on dairy cows for immature liverfluke unless you can deal with a 12 month milk withdrawl:D. I used closamectin pour on for the sucklers last year for ease of use but it is a bit dearer but way quicker

dasheriff

Thanks lads i mite go with the closmectin so altogether i have heard good things about it alright only for it bein so dear..

reilig

I did all the weinlings with animec super a month ago. The ones that I'm selling got closmectin pour on last week. The ones that I'm keeping were housed last monday. They'll get closmectin in a week or 2. All cows will get a fluke dose when they're housed for 2 weeks - probably animec super too.

All cows have to get minerals over winter too. Possibly alltrace bullets. But that will depend on a few blood test results from the vet - he suspects that they will need coppasure.

BeeDI

For fluke, I have used the old reliable year in year out for the past 20 year. Trodax:D It's cheap. It's works. Never yet had a problem. Plus you get yellow hands, that glow in the dark. I feel like Bart Simpson after using it:D
For worms, I used Levacide this year, and two years ago. Not cough in sight on the calves, and it is really cheap. €50 for 500ml.

What I have noticed this past two weeks though, is a few of the cows are coughing a bit:( Not bad, but not something I have seen in the past. What could the problem be with the cows, ........ and the solution. I was thinking of giving them a blast of the Levacide!

whelan1

just wondering if you use a product like trodax year in year out will they build up immunity or such to it ?

adne

LostCovey wrote: »

Hi Vanderbadger

There's a lot of hype about rumen fluke which sell s Zanil. Liver fluke is way more common, way more dangerous, and Zanil is not much use for that - it only kills adult liver fluke.

LostCovey

My Vet recommended Zanil this year, said its the best on the market. Dose week after housing and again 8 weeks later that way the fact it only kills adult fluke covers it,
Said the pourons and injections are not as affective as straight down the gob......

Muckit

reilig wrote: »

he suspects that they will need coppasure.

Is that a copper supplement? I got a few single injection shots a few years back for weanlings I bought, really made them thrive and put a shoine on their coat......can't remember it's name.... is coppasure a bolus shot or an injection?

LostCovey

adne wrote: »

My Vet recommended Zanil this year, said its the best on the market. Dose week after housing and again 8 weeks later that way the fact it only kills adult fluke covers it,
Said the pourons and injections are not as affective as straight down the gob......

Well who am I to argue. Maybe ask him/her why it makes sense for your cattle to have immature fluke tunnelling through their livers for an extra 8 weeks, instead of killing most of them with a suitable product on day 1. Maybe ask him why Zanil was going off the market till rumen fluke turned up to save it. Maybe ask him/her what deal they got on Zanil off the sales rep this autumn.

Yours cynically,

LostCovey

LostCovey

reilig wrote: »

I did all the weinlings with animec super a month ago. The ones that I'm selling got closmectin pour on last week. The ones that I'm keeping were housed last monday. They'll get closmectin in a week or 2. All cows will get a fluke dose when they're housed for 2 weeks - probably animec super too.

All cows have to get minerals over winter too. Possibly alltrace bullets. But that will depend on a few blood test results from the vet - he suspects that they will need coppasure.

Reilig,

Copper?......Suuuuure.....

Coppasure!!!!!

LC

LostCovey

whelan1 wrote: »

just wondering if you use a product like trodax year in year out will they build up immunity or such to it ?

Yes, whelan1, this has happened already with Fasinex, haven't heard of it happening with Trodax yet but no reason why it shouldn't.

LostCovey

reilig

Muckit wrote: »

Is that a copper supplement? I got a few single injection shots a few years back for weanlings I bought, really made them thrive and put a shoine on their coat......can't remember it's name.... is coppasure a bolus shot or an injection?

Its a bolus. My vet tested some heifers that did not go in calf for me earlier this year and he sold me these. Pleased to say that the 2 heifers I gave it to are now in calf. He said that grass is low in copper because of the wet summer in 2009.

5live

LostCovey wrote: »

Well who am I to argue. Maybe ask him/her why it makes sense for your cattle to have immature fluke tunnelling through their livers for an extra 8 weeks, instead of killing most of them with a suitable product on day 1. Maybe ask him why Zanil was going off the market till rumen fluke turned up to save it. Maybe ask him/her what deal they got on Zanil off the sales rep this autumn.

Yours cynically,

LostCovey

True LC. It makes NO sense for immature fluke to be left alive in the livers of any animal when there is an inexpensive product there to cure it. Perhaos you could have a word with those on high about the availability of liverfluke doses for dairy cattle in the years ahead. NO dose for immature flukes will just lead to high mortality and costs on wet land but who gives a duck about that, eh? And the reason that zanil was going off the market was that the majority of liverfluke dosing was to reduce the effects of the immature fluke on livers and as zanil didnt cover the immature buggers then....;) reduced sales:eek:

k mac

Just after housing heifers, dosed them with noromectin pour on 3 weeks ago. I think they will need dosing for fluke as well, when should i do this ? Also which is the best to use, i have never used trodax before as i am new to farming, when injecting in the neck they say under the skin does this mean i put the full lenght of the needle in and through the hide which means it would require a good bit of force ? Also if i dosed them with trodax would i need to use the pour on as well. I think closamectin would be a lot handier but it is expensive and might not be as good ?

snowman707

k mac wrote: »

Just after housing heifers, dosed them with noromectin pour on 3 weeks ago. I think they will need dosing for fluke as well, when should i do this ? Also which is the best to use, i have never used trodax before as i am new to farming, when injecting in the neck they say under the skin does this mean i put the full lenght of the needle in and through the hide which means it would require a good bit of force ? Also if i dosed them with trodax would i need to use the pour on as well. I think closamectin would be a lot handier but it is expensive and might not be as good ?

they should ok for stomach and lung worms seeing it's only 3 weeks since they were dosed if you want to use trodax best wait a month after housing , alternatively you could dose them now with fasinex or tribex

when injecting subcutaneously, you need to get the point of the needle just under the skin. pinch the skin with one hand and pull towards you a little and insert the needle into the fold, may be best to get some one to be with you for the first time

greysides

whelan1 wrote: »

our rep told me to do cows with levamas diamond at drying off and do them with endospec 10% the day they calve so both fluke are covered , getting fed up deknuckling myself at this stage:mad:

Levafas contains Levamisole and Oxyclozanide:

Levamisole only hits type one ostertagia not the inhibited type 2 which need to be treated at this time of year.
Oxyclozanide only gets adult liver-fluke, not immature.

Endospec 10% contains albendazole.

Albendazole hits both type one and type two stomach-worms. It hits adult liver-fluke if given at the elevated dosage rate. It has some effectivity against the immature stomach-fluke but not the adults. The immature stomach-fluke being the ones that cause the problems.



Given this, why not use the albendazole to start with?

And why not just use straight oxyclozanide (Zanil) after calving?

adne

greysides wrote: »

Given this, why not use the albendazole to start with?

And why not just use straight oxyclozanide (Zanil) after calving?

why only after calving?

greysides

To leave it as long as possible so that as many of the fluke the albendazole missed are mature enough that they can be killed by the Zanil.

snowman707

greysides wrote: »

Endospec 10% contains albendazole.

Albendazole hits both type one and type two stomach-worms. It hits adult liver-fluke if given at the elevated dosage rate. It has some effectivity against the immature stomach-fluke but not the adults. The immature stomach-fluke being the ones that cause the problems.



Given this, why not use the albendazole to start with?

And why not just use straight oxyclozanide (Zanil) after calving?

albendazole is available from many different companies under various trade names , the cheapest I could source was Tramazole 10% works out about 65c. for a 600Kg animal

From past experience I would have reservations about giving albendazole at the fluke dose rate in the first 3 to 4 months of pregnancy, could apply to incalf heifers and non dairy breeds

greysides wrote: »

To leave it as long as possible so that as many of the fluke the albendazole missed are mature enough that they can be killed by the Zanil.

What is the minimal time lapse you advise?

adne

greysides wrote: »

To leave it as long as possible so that as many of the fluke the albendazole missed are mature enough that they can be killed by the Zanil.

Not following what your saying.

What if i house in November and dont have cows calving until March.....

Can you explain plz.

greysides

IIRC, fluke become adult at about 12 weeks/3 months in the animal. Albendazole at an increased dosage rate only gets the adults.
So to get away with one dose you'd have to wait for three months after their last chance to pick up fluke.
You could, of course, repeat the dose every month to pick off those that have matured into the kill zone since the last dose.
To avoid excess handling, and with some of the fluke taken out by the first albendazole dose, I suggested to allow ~2 months between doses and to give the second dose after the cow has calved when there is no risk to the calf.

I can't comment on personal experience but I know of no widespread problems with using albendazole in pregnant animals. If there were problems it would be common knowledge and mentioned on the packaging. So check that.

A thought that occurs is .... what would have happened if the dose hadn't been given.....?

Fluke predisposes to salmonellosis, which can very commonly cause abortion without the cow/heifer being sick.

Adne, this hopefully answers your question too. I was anticipating a two month dry period. Were your example your own situation then it explains the wisdom of the oft used advice to 'talk to your vet to get specific advice'.

snowman707

greysides wrote: »

IIRC, fluke become adult at about 12 weeks/3 months in the animal. Albendazole at an increased dosage rate only gets the adults.
So to get away with one dose you'd have to wait for three months after their last chance to pick up fluke.
You could, of course, repeat the dose every month to pick off those that have matured into the kill zone since the last dose.
To avoid excess handling, and with some of the fluke taken out by the first albendazole dose, I suggested to allow ~2 months between doses and to give the second dose after the cow has calved when there is no risk to the calf.

I can't comment on personal experience but I know of no widespread problems with using albendazole in pregnant animals. If there were problems it would be common knowledge and mentioned on the packaging. So check that.

A thought that occurs is .... what would have happened if the dose hadn't been given.....?

Fluke predisposes to salmonellosis, which can very commonly cause abortion without the cow/heifer being sick.

Adne, this hopefully answers your question too. I was anticipating a two month dry period. Were your example your own situation then it explains the wisdom of the oft used advice to 'talk to your vet to get specific advice'.

I can only relate to my own experience going back years ago , when we had maybe 3 or 4 heifers with dead "mummy" foetuses .

The Vet had no answer and I casually mentioned it to the AI man one day who immediately asked were they dosed with Vla****n?, & records showed they were indeed a couple months after mating

Too much of a coincidence for my liking.

Labelling does state that sheep should not dosed at the fluke level during tupping & for 1 month afterwards

when you state "no danger to the calf" I presume you are referring to danger from handling as opposed to side effects from the actual dose?

BTW
nice to see advise for cost effective worm control as opposed to using the dearest option

24_7

Have a few suckler cows/calves was wondering is it a waste of time/money dosing the cows for worms, used to do it. Usually only do suckler calves and maybe cattle up to 2-3 year old.
Normally do the whole lot for fluke with Trodax (except the bull, depends on his mood) and they usually need an extra something for lice.

greysides

when you state "no danger to the calf" I presume you are referring to danger from handling as opposed to side effects from the actual dose?

Correct.

IIRC, there were some concerns about oxibendazole and its effects on reproduction. Oxibendazole being a relation of albendazole, benzimidazole family . However this report seems to put that in perspective- consider the species and the dosage rates....

Effects on fertility and reproduction were studied in sheep, cattle and horses. None of these studies showed the product to have any teratogenic or embryotoxic properties.

Several mummies ocurring together would certainly be unusual normally but not impossible under certain conditions, for example........

Foetal mummies can be caused by infectious agents (BVD, Campylobacter foetus, leptospirosis, moulds), torsion of the umbilical cord/uterine torsion/placental problems or from the inheritance of fatal genes/abnormal chrosomes.

If a bunch of heifers inseminated about the same time were exposed to BVD for the first time at a vulnerable time, 40-180 days of gestation, then it's possible several could produce mummies.

Or, if a bunch of heifers of similar breeding were all bred to the same bull then it would also increase the chances of several mummies showing up together, should the genetics be incompatible.

I dunno, just speculation. Things may be as they seemed...........but maybe not.

red bull

Anyone have a price for Zanil or other fluke dose approved for treating dairy cows

greysides

On the subject of worm dosing cows............personal opinion.........

You could justify not doing suckler cows if they were in good body condition but you'd want to be watching for the exceptions..........the young, the old, and those in poor BCS for whatever reason.

Personally, I see the winter housing period as 5-6 months with expensive feeding but during which you can guarantee the absence of parasitic losses so why not avail of it.
I'd dose all cows at housing and be done with it. Why waste expensive feed fattening worms? It could be said the dosing is the cheapest feed you give them.

The biggest source of next years pasture infection is in this years stock, so I'd knock that on the head too.

On the subject of cheap, I wouldn't be using albendazole for fluke and oxyclozanide for fluke if it were possible to use other products and sort out the fluke earlier. But hands are tied at the moment. I would choose more effective, more timely product- not necessarily more expensive though some would be.

5live

24_7 wrote: »

Have a few suckler cows/calves was wondering is it a waste of time/money dosing the cows for worms, used to do it. Usually only do suckler calves and maybe cattle up to 2-3 year old.
Normally do the whole lot for fluke with Trodax (except the bull, depends on his mood) and they usually need an extra something for lice.

It is a waste of money dosing cows for worms as they develop immunity to worms at grass. The exceptions are older cows and thin younger ones which could need a wirm dose to allow them a chance to build up condition before calving. And you should rotate dosing products for fluke also to prevent the fluke building up immunity to any one product. I dont think it has happened yet with trodax but better to be a bit on the safe side

adne

greysides wrote: »

On the subject of worm dosing cows............personal opinion.........

You could justify not doing suckler cows if they were in good body condition but you'd want to be watching for the exceptions..........the young, the old, and those in poor BCS for whatever reason.

Personally, I see the winter housing period as 5-6 months with expensive feeding but during which you can guarantee the absence of parasitic losses so why not avail of it.
I'd dose all cows at housing and be done with it. Why waste expensive feed fattening worms? It could be said the dosing is the cheapest feed you give them.

The biggest source of next years pasture infection is in this years stock, so I'd knock that on the head too.

On the subject of cheap, I wouldn't be using albendazole for fluke and oxyclozanide for fluke if it were possible to use other products and sort out the fluke earlier. But hands are tied at the moment. I would choose more effective, more timely product- not necessarily more expensive though some would be.

Cheers Greystones, some good tips on this thread from you.
I have Stock (Cows/Yearlings/Two Year olds) housed the last 2 weeks. What product would you recommend to use.

I was thinking of dosing with Zanil in 1 weeks time and again 8 weeks later.

FarmerBarleymow

Muckit wrote: »

Is that a copper supplement? I got a few single injection shots a few years back for weanlings I bought, really made them thrive and put a shoine on their coat......can't remember it's name.... is coppasure a bolus shot or an injection?

Used to be a product called Coprin, blue bucket with about 15 syringes. Dead easy to use, worked a treat but needless to say seems to be gone off the market

greysides

adne wrote: »

I have Stock (Cows/Yearlings/Two Year olds) housed the last 2 weeks. What product would you recommend to use.

I was thinking of dosing with Zanil in 1 weeks time and again 8 weeks later.

With stock rather than dairy cows there are a lot more doses to chose from.

Worms are a perennial problem. Liver fluke too. The balance of opinion about Stomach Fluke is that it is generally harmless and the circumstances that allowed it to become a particular problem in certain areas last year (flooding) weren't present this year.

A compromise program would be something like:

Albendazole at the liver fluke rate at housing.
Two weeks later, Fasinex.

If there is any suspicion of stomach fluke causing problems after that, a double-strength dose of oxyclozanide +/- repeat after three days could be used.

If just wishing to cover stomach fluke in a routine fashion a single dose of oxyclozanide could be given between February and turn out.

(A double dose of oxyclozanide is extra-label and at own risk. The most likely side-effect is transient mild diarrhoea.)

Surfn

whelan1 wrote: »

our rep told me to do cows with levamas diamond at drying off and do them with endospec 10% the day they calve so both fluke are covered , getting fed up deknuckling myself at this stage:mad:

i know what you mean man, when ya get wild 1's, they will give the kuckles a good doing up against the wall