Hollystown vs. St. Margarets

snowy666

Deciding to join one of these (Castleknock's just out of budget). Any members/regular players here who can add opinions on which would be better?

Hollys €400 cheaper.
Hollys closer (3 mins away)
St. M's better, more testing course. (playing off 11 right now)

I'm interested in competitions and representing club in comps next year if possible. Basically wanna compete as much as poss.

Thoughts?

f22

Margarets is a pale comparison to it's glory days but is a way better course than hollystown. I know their membership numbers have dwindled but I'd still take it over hollystown, which I just wouldn't play for free.

Figo69

Stay away from hollystown, its a dog track!!

As for st.mag, i like it! It got some very good holes and testing one as well. Clubhouse isnt too bad and the practice facility is good too.:)

snowy666

Thanks lads, does anyone know the numbers each place gets for its competitions, when they run, does St. Margaret's enter teams for cups etc?

I used to play at Hollys a couple of years back and I know St. Maggie's will be a far better track to test myself on, I just want to be sure there are going to be people to play with!:)

couerdelion

Hollystown is my local course, but I've only played it once. I just didn't enjoy it.

I think it's a bit harsh to say "I wouldn't play it for free" or "It's a dog track" but everyone is entitled to thier opinion. The course was in good condition just a little uniinspring and it's one of the few courses I've played where I honestly can't remember a single hole.

Mister Sifter

snowy666 wrote: »

Thanks lads, does anyone know the numbers each place gets for its competitions, when they run, does St. Margaret's enter teams for cups etc?

I used to play at Hollys a couple of years back and I know St. Maggie's will be a far better track to test myself on, I just want to be sure there are going to be people to play with!:)

According to Howdidido they get about 60 for their medals. Captains day saw around 90 people enter. Not bad.

They do enter inter-club comps but they've been notoriously bad in recent years.

jimjo

Not sure would I join St. Margaret’s, played it a week before the Jimmy Bruen and the course was in awful nick. On the par 3 2nd towards the back of the green there was no grass, and you could see in other parts of the course standards aren’t kept to an acceptable grade.

However for the day of the Jimmy Bruen they got there act together and the course was in terrific nick. So when they do get the finger out it can be a great course and it has to be said it’s a great lay out but what good is that when tee boxes and greens are in dire condition for the rest of the year…

I just wouldn't be sure joining the club, say the place is in piss poor condition over the winter months too.

jackal

If castleknock is "just" out of your budget, would you not just save up the extra 250 or whatever and delay joining until you had it. Its a big commitment to join a club, you could be there just for the year or for life, who knows, but for the sake of such a small amount of money, I would not let that be the deciding factor.

Castleknock is kept in much better condition than St Margarets (a tough but interesting layout which I also like). The main problem I have found with St M is that they pack the course with green fees without allowing adequate time between groups, leading to annoyingly delayed and long rounds.

Hollystown, I think you can rule out as an 11 h/cap, its just too easy a course. They do have a thriving competition/club scene though.

Figo69

If it was me, i probably wait and get the extra cash and join Castleknock. Jackal right about that bit, it might be worth saving and waiting.

Castleknock is a short course, some of the par 4s are short but you still have to play well to get anywhere close to a good score. Some lovely par 3s and par 5s. Great clubhouse, love the changing facility. No driving range though just pratice greens.

St.Mag in my opinion is a long course, championship course. Does well to serve you as a good mid handicapper.Although from the last time i played there a few weeks ago, the greens seems to have bits of bald patches on them and i wasn't totally impressed with the tee boxes too. But overall some good holes, tough ones as well.

I think i enjoy Castleknock more often than St.Mags.:)

istaunton

Corrstown is also worth a look at. I only became a full memeber this year but had been renting playing rights up to that. Basically you can just pay the green fee and have full playing rights. Including medals and representing the club (which seem to be doing quite well over the last few years). Also on a normal Saturday & Sunday comps the numbers are usually quite high. For example this Saturday is only a 9 hole comp and there is 168 people on the time sheet.

Just saying it might be worth a look for you. However i cannot even attempt to say you consider Hollystown. my be a personnal thing but i happen to agree with some of the negative comments above

jimjo

Plus another reason not to join Hollystown they only offer comps on Sundays, and the members times appear pretty limited too. Look at their fixture list www.hollystown.com/?page=97998

I hate when you cant enter comps on Saturdays, think the Headfort do the same.

Mister Sifter

jimjo wrote: »

Plus another reason not to join Hollystown they only offer comps on Sundays, and the members times appear pretty limited too. Look at their fixture list www.hollystown.com/?page=97998

I hate when you cant enter comps on Saturdays, think the Headfort do the same.

Good point Jimjo! It doesn't look like Margaret's offer sat and sun comps either. Another consideration is the CSS at both courses - i think Hollystown's is generally 38 points whereas Mags is usually either 34 or 35.

Figo69

Mister Sifter wrote: »

Good point Jimjo! It doesn't look like Margaret's offer sat and sun comps either. Another consideration is the CSS at both courses - i think Hollystown's is generally 38 points whereas Mags is usually either 34 or 35.

+1

snowy666

Thanks for all the replies.

Basically, it seems worth the extra few notes to join Castleknock. I do like the course, it's beautifully kept, has the right competitions and I think the course condition (especially the greens) and clubhouse just outweighs the course layout of St. Margaret's (which I personally feel is better, more of a Championship course), its full practice facilities, €450 savings and 10 min shorter travel distance.

It's a close run thing though

Mister Sifter

snowy666 wrote: »

Thanks for all the replies.

Basically, it seems worth the extra few notes to join Castleknock. I do like the course, it's beautifully kept, has the right competitions and I think the course condition (especially the greens) and clubhouse just outweighs the course layout of St. Margaret's (which I personally feel is better, more of a Championship course), its full practice facilities, €450 savings and 10 min shorter travel distance.

It's a close run thing though

Have you considered Roganstown?

snowy666

@Mister Sifter - I haven't actually considered Roganstown, just because I don't want to be driving 25 minutes from home to the course and 45 mins from work. Have played it though and it's very, very nice.

@istaunton - Never played Corrstown actually. Pretty much same distance as St. Maggies but would have to play it first obv. Tks for the heads-up.

Ollieboy

snowy666 wrote: »

@Mister Sifter - I haven't actually considered Roganstown, just because I don't want to be driving 25 minutes from home to the course and 45 mins from work. Have played it though and it's very, very nice.

@istaunton - Never played Corrstown actually. Pretty much same distance as St. Maggies but would have to play it first obv. Tks for the heads-up.

To be honest everything you have asked for is at Corrstown and its a cracking set-up with 27 holes, currently having a lot of success in Inter-club Comp's and have load of clubs comps each week with accessable timesheet. Also new club house and 1.5 million spent on the course over the last 3 years. Food is getting better and I reckon membership rates will come down after the next AGM which is in December.

Corrstown is 11 min's from Clonee Villiage for me.

Have to agree with most of the posters so far, St Margarets and Hollystown are both on the way down, but hopefully they can turn it around. St Margarets is a great set-up and Hollystown is great value but hate it as a track.

Roganstown is very highly regard.

Mister Sifter

Ollieboy wrote: »

To be honest everything you have asked for is at Corrstown and its a cracking set-up with 27 holes, currently having a lot of success in Inter-club Comp's and have load of clubs comps each week with accessable timesheet. Also new club house and 1.5 million spent on the course over the last 3 years. Food is getting better and I reckon membership rates will come down after the next AGM which is in December.

Corrstown is 11 min's from Clonee Villiage for me.

Have to agree with most of the posters so far, St Margarets and Hollystown are both on the way down, but hopefully they can turn it around. St Margarets is a great set-up and Hollystown is great value but hate it as a track.

Roganstown is very highly regard.

I've heard from a few people that it's very hard to get on the Corrstown timesheet for competitions. They do seem to have a very high membership.

Figo69

Not sure if i agree with ollieboy. Played coorstown myself twice and both times i didnt enjoyed it. 27 holes is a great but the 9 holes in orchard has got to be the worst 9 holes around, plain and boring and quite short. I'm a 15 handicapper and i got thru that 9 holes 3 over and i wasnt even trying.
It's not challening enough.
Now i can't rem which is it the river or the meadow where u start off on a par 3, now that was okay 9 holes, some boring straighforward holes. However the other 9 holes at the back was interesting and challenging.

Overall, didnt really get any satisfaction from it. A mate of mine is a member and he complain all the time about getting teetimes for his friends, it almost full

Ollieboy

Mister Sifter wrote: »

I've heard from a few people that it's very hard to get on the Corrstown timesheet for competitions. They do seem to have a very high membership.

I've been a member for 7 years and never had a problem getting on the sheet. You just put you're name down early and if you can't make it take it off, plus on the day spots open up everywhere. I played every major this year which there is 11 and all around the same time of day which is mid day on a Saturday which suits me best. And to be honest, its a positive sign more then a negative as it proves the club as a very active membership and good cash income which is unusal in todays market. So now chance it going bust like other clubs mention.

The Orchard which is usually the spare 9 is a beautiful course. Some great tree line fairways with great greens and grass fairways. If you play off the front tees, it can be very short, its not long in the first place. But I reckon any 15 handicap getting pars on the 2nd/5th and 9th must be playing very well.

The river (9 starting with a par 3) is a decent 9, but with tree growth over the next few years and the way they lay out the rough, its far from a easy 9. The meadow 9 is a amazing and the 2nd par 5 hole is mention as one off the best par 5's in Ireland, the Index 1 plays like a par 5 and follow by a very long par 3 with 2 massive par 4's. So I can't agree with the comments. But like all new course (its only 12 years old) it will get better with age.

By the way, someone mention in another tread that comps in Castleknock only have a 2 hour tee time window for members, something like 9 to 11?

Figo69

Well i parred the first 4 and then 8th and 9th. Like i said i wasn't even trying.
The best par 5s in the country, where do they get these information.

Still think Castleknock is a better bet than st.mags plus coorstown.

Ollieboy

Figo69 wrote: »

Well i parred the first 4 and then 8th and 9th. Like i said i wasn't even trying.
The best par 5s in the country, where do they get these information.

Still think Castleknock is a better bet than st.mags plus coorstown.

There rank by players in golf mags.

Castleknock is a multi-million euro course create for the high end market, you're not even comparing like with like. The op ask for a members club that gave good value.

By the way, maybe you should join... with that ball striking playing of 15 you will win a major easily... and get cut for it.

jimmystars

Played St Mags and Corrstown and i would go for Corrs myself. Its got a sweet clubhouse and the 27 holes are sweet for popping out for 9 in the evening. Cant say i liked St Mags to be honest. Found it rundown and in less than mint condition in the middle of the summer. I was a part of a large group green fees as well at 12 on a saturday which is a bad sign of members times
Def worth checking out Corrstown.
I didnt think it was that easy a course had 36 points last time out of white tees. Played the Orchid 9 as well and remeber it being very mature compared to the other 9s. Not as easy as Figo says imo

Mister Sifter

Ollieboy wrote: »

I've been a member for 7 years and never had a problem getting on the sheet. You just put you're name down early and if you can't make it take it off, plus on the day spots open up everywhere. I played every major this year which there is 11 and all around the same time of day which is mid day on a Saturday which suits me best. And to be honest, its a positive sign more then a negative as it proves the club as a very active membership and good cash income which is unusal in todays market. So now chance it going bust like other clubs mention.

The Orchard which is usually the spare 9 is a beautiful course. Some great tree line fairways with great greens and grass fairways. If you play off the front tees, it can be very short, its not long in the first place. But I reckon any 15 handicap getting pars on the 2nd/5th and 9th must be playing very well.

The river (9 starting with a par 3) is a decent 9, but with tree growth over the next few years and the way they lay out the rough, its far from a easy 9. The meadow 9 is a amazing and the 2nd par 5 hole is mention as one off the best par 5's in Ireland, the Index 1 plays like a par 5 and follow by a very long par 3 with 2 massive par 4's. So I can't agree with the comments. But like all new course (its only 12 years old) it will get better with age.

By the way, someone mention in another tread that comps in Castleknock only have a 2 hour tee time window for members, something like 9 to 11?

That's good to hear. Only thing that concerns me from what's been said here is that while it's claimed that the club is in good health financially and in terms of members, why then would a drop in fees be on the cards. I presume any drop in fees would be aimed at bringing in more members which would give me concerns about the timesheets etc.

For what it's worth, i quite liked Corrstown the one time i played it and the all round facilities are very good.

Ollieboy

Mister Sifter wrote: »

That's good to hear. Only thing that concerns me from what's been said here is that while it's claimed that the club is in good health financially and in terms of members, why then would a drop in fees be on the cards. I presume any drop in fees would be aimed at bringing in more members which would give me concerns about the timesheets etc.

For what it's worth, i quite liked Corrstown the one time i played it and the all round facilities are very good.

Sorry I meant the membership fee, its currently 4.5k which is to high in the current market. They do offer playing membership at the moment too with option to full membership after 3 years. I think the sub is 1250 with 150 towards the bar. Would always rather the sub to be around the 1k mark. Don't have a problem with the bar levy as I use it up easy enough. We also had a snooker club which isn't active at the moment due to the move to the new club house.

Like all clubs were losing members as people who joined during the boom and didn't use the membership have now hand back there membership and people losing there jobs not been able to afford the sub. The club want to keep the turnover up and hence the reason to keep the membership number at its maximum. Don't get me wrong, the timesheet fills up, but you just have to be flexible and get you're name down in time. People that complain about it tend to be the one's that don't put in any effort and complain about everything.

I feel/reckon a lot of clubs will struggle in the next two years and subs will come back due to market getting smaller. Even all the public course around Dublin are empty.

Also don't forget Blackbush, Kilcock and Asbourne all within easy reach.

Let us know what you think when you go out, this time off year all courses don't look great but you'll know if you like it enough or not.

snowy666

Spoke to Corrstown and St. Margaret's today, but only SM's had anyone working today who could provide any info. (was told to phone back on Mon for Corrstown and felt the Pro couldn't get off the phone quick enough).

On the other hand, SM's offered me a free round tomorrow, to allay my fears re course maintenance, see the clubhouse and show me around.

I won't judge Corrstown on just one guy during one phone call but...

Will play Corrstown next weekend before making final decision.

Again, really appreciate the responses form everybody. Cheers.

Sammo13

SM is fine track off the white/blue, some superb holes.. but it just doesn't have any club atmosphere, hard to see it attracting members at €1500 p/a when you can play castlenock for €1750.

Corrstown is expensive for €4500, 27 holes is great, but value for money?

But either way, you have a great choice in the area... hold off and wait for more offers, clubs are in tough situ and deals will come out closer to Jan;)

snowy666

Sammo13 wrote: »

SM is fine track off the white/blue, some superb holes.. but it just doesn't have any club atmosphere, hard to see it attracting members at €1500 p/a when you can play castlenock for €1750.

Corrstown is expensive for €4500, 27 holes is great, but value for money?

But either way, you have a great choice in the area... hold off and wait for more offers, clubs are in tough situ and deals will come out closer to Jan;)

I do love SM's layout. Although CK is in superb nick all the time, does it have that Championship course feel (like SM's or Luttrelstown)? Not so sure.

Slightly off on the figures though, as CK is €1940 (bar levy and GUI charge) and CT is €1500 with full playing rights.The extra €3K comes in after 3 years or unless you want full voting rights immediately. So it's a €440 saving - which buys a lot of yellow Srixon's

Like I say, I haven't played Corrstown yet and obv have to reserve full judgement, but I do like the look of the website (not gonna make me reach Par 5's in two, but adds a nice touch) and that clubhouse sure does look puuurty.

You're absolutely right that there's great choice in the area and I take your point that holding off until later on may be beneficial - perhaps after the budget and nearer my huge (not) Christmas bonus.

Ollieboy

snowy666 wrote: »

I do love SM's layout. Although CK is in superb nick all the time, does it have that Championship course feel (like SM's or Luttrelstown)? Not so sure.

Slightly off on the figures though, as CK is €1940 (bar levy and GUI charge) and CT is €1500 with full playing rights.The extra €3K comes in after 3 years or unless you want full voting rights immediately. So it's a €440 saving - which buys a lot of yellow Srixon's

Like I say, I haven't played Corrstown yet and obv have to reserve full judgement, but I do like the look of the website (not gonna make me reach Par 5's in two, but adds a nice touch) and that clubhouse sure does look puuurty.

You're absolutely right that there's great choice in the area and I take your point that holding off until later on may be beneficial - perhaps after the budget and nearer my huge (not) Christmas bonus.

Remember the 4.5k is a share price, I.e you can sell this at any time and get you're money back depending on the value of the share at the point of sell. These were trading for 10k at the peak and start of at 3k when it open. So I look at the 4.5k as a share investment and it could go up or down, but I'll get something back. I paid 7.5k for mine and my mate paid 3k.

The club also 110 ha, so the really value of each share is a lot more the 4.5k.

This means you actually own part of the land in the club and off course any debts in may incur in the future.

The guy at the desk is just a golf assistant with maybe 3 other people in front off him trying to get out on the course, there actaully very friendly in there and always under cut McGuirks on golf gear etc.

Corrstown also usually offers a free round to anyone considering joining. You just need to talk to the right people in the office.

AldilaMan

Ollieboy
The value of that 4.5k share is very questionable in the current market. Personally I think paying hello money to any golf club in this climate is foolish. Knightsbrook were selling shares for 15k 2 years ago and you can buy them on donedeal now for <1k. No joining on fees in Balcarrick or Hollywoodlakes - just the annual sub and you're a full member with voting rights. I can see Corrstown passing a motion in a few years time to take on those members who are there for 3 years without having to pay the 4.5k joining fee. That 3 year timeframe just kicked the issue into touch but it's going to become a big issue if most of those members choose to leave because they don't want to part with 4.5k. That will result in a huge loss in annual subs to the club.

ThunderCat

Ollieboy wrote: »

The Orchard which is usually the spare 9 is a beautiful course. Some great tree line fairways with great greens and grass fairways. If you play off the front tees, it can be very short, its not long in the first place. But I reckon any 15 handicap getting pars on the 2nd/5th and 9th must be playing very well.

Have to agree - it's my favourite 9. Fair play to 15 handicapper who went around it in +3 but i'm sure after more rounds that score would become the exception rather than the rule.

Ollieboy

AldilaMan wrote: »

Ollieboy
The value of that 4.5k share is very questionable in the current market. Personally I think paying hello money to any golf club in this climate is foolish. Knightsbrook were selling shares for 15k 2 years ago and you can buy them on donedeal now for <1k. No joining on fees in Balcarrick or Hollywoodlakes - just the annual sub and you're a full member with voting rights. I can see Corrstown passing a motion in a few years time to take on those members who are there for 3 years without having to pay the 4.5k joining fee. That 3 year timeframe just kicked the issue into touch but it's going to become a big issue if most of those members choose to leave because they don't want to part with 4.5k. That will result in a huge loss in annual subs to the club.

I'm not disagree with you're point, but if the members own the club, I.e. land and buildings then that as to have a value. Land beside Correstown in the same size sold for 130 million at the peak. Bring Corrstown back to agrie value and its still worth 3 million at worse. Most clubs you pay money to join is taken by the club or the owners of the land etc. But Corrstown is actaully own by the members so each share will always have a value.

If the club was dissolve tomorrow and the land etc sold each member will walk away with a share of the money.

I agree with what you mention about most clubs scrapping entence fees in the future, but all golf models around the world have membership clubs with Entrance Fees and this market model will return back to the Irish market with everythng flattens out again. You've got to remember that the current economic crisis is part of a bigger up and down curve and in 10 years time again club fees will return to there correct market price. Getting in now for a young member will be excellant value.

What will continue to go up is subs and I've a problem with this as it restricts the entry actually more then hello money. Will need to follow the UK model where hello money is paid but subs are around the 1k mark.

AldilaMan

Ollieboy wrote: »

I'm not disagree with you're point, but if the members own the club, I.e. land and buildings then that as to have a value. Land beside Correstown in the same size sold for 130 million at the peak. Bring Corrstown back to agrie value and its still worth 3 million at worse. Most clubs you pay money to join is taken by the club or the owners of the land etc. But Corrstown is actaully own by the members so each share will always have a value.

If the club was dissolve tomorrow and the land etc sold each member will walk away with a share of the money.

I agree with what you mention about most clubs scrapping entence fees in the future, but all golf models around the world have membership clubs with Entrance Fees and this market model will return back to the Irish market with everythng flattens out again. You've got to remember that the current economic crisis is part of a bigger up and down curve and in 10 years time again club fees will return to there correct market price. Getting in now for a young member will be excellant value.

What will continue to go up is subs and I've a problem with this as it restricts the entry actually more then hello money. Will need to follow the UK model where hello money is paid but subs are around the 1k mark.

It's not true that all golf models have membership clubs with entrance fees. Australia and New Zealand have moved away from this model in a lot of clubs which creates a much more transient golfer (which is not very good for the clubs). This is unchartered territory for Ireland. There are far too many golf clubs for the number of people playing just like there are far too many houses built. While I accept your rationale that the share has some value in relation to the value of the land, this will only be realised if the golf club is sold which is very unlikely.The true value of the share as an investment is what the market is willing to pay for it and I would contend that currently this value is close to zero. I do think that the current model being used by Corrstown has the potential to backfire if all these new members who will be forced to cough up 4.5k or leave decide on the latter. This could leave the club down 120k annually if 100 members left. The most important thing for any club is to keeps it's membership up to near capacity so that there is a steady stream of annual sub revenue every year. As for the cyclical downturn - nobody knows - or if we did we'ed all be millionaires!!

Mister Sifter

Anyone thinking of joining Hollystown for next year might be interested in this...

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Open Membership Information Morning
Saturday 6th November 2010
11am – 2pm

On Saturday 6th November 2010, Hollystown Golf Club will host a 2nd open membership information morning for golfers of all levels and beginners who are interested in becoming a member of our Club for 2011; including the remainder of 2010 if you wish.

This information morning is an ideal opportunity to learn about the benefits of our membership and how our friendly and relaxed golf club operates. Hollystown's Management Team will be on hand to discuss with you personally all aspects of the Club including:

The unique Membership system we have developed; “Options A B C”
Junior, Student and the new Family Membership option
Which of the options is best suited to you, you're Family or Friends
Getting an official Handicap and the general rules of golf
Club competitions, inter-club golf teams, social golf and other events
Our 27- Holes course, practice facilities and the Hollystown Pavilion
PGA Professional Joe Murray will be on hand to give you a full swing analysis with his new state of the art; V1 Golf Academy® Software.

The morning will be fun and informative and you can drop in at any stage with no obligation. If you would like to try out the course; you're more than welcome to play the course and bring a friend if you wish. If you have any further questions please feel free to contact our reception (+353- 1- 8207444)

We look forward to welcoming you on the day.