N74: the most ruined and un-upgradable N-road in Ireland?

Amtmann

From Cashel to Tipperary Town the N74 is approximately 20km long. It is narrow single carriageway, extremely bendy, and has no hard shoulder. Along its entire length (apart from the short section built as part of the Cashel Bypass in 2004) there is only one place where it is remotely possible to overtake in 18km, and even there it is risky. Lorries and HGVs generally seem to average about 40km/h on the route (I know because I've been stuck behind them often enough) and on some sections they can only manage 30km/h. Cars, if they were to get a clear run (which in practice very rarely happens), could average 70km/h, though there are many bends where unless you slow to 50km/h you could well lose control of your vehicle.

Now, I'll make no bones about it: I HATE the N74. I use it about six times per week from Golden to Tipperary Town and back. I don't expect to ever see a new build replace it, nor is one planned in either Transport 21, the NDP or the Road Needs Study. The route will not be replaced by a new-build section of the N24, which was a good idea (suggested by NordyDan). I've no problem with this and I'm not seeking a new build or anything like that.

But what I would like to see are some of the very serious bends taken out of the road by means of a few short and cheap old-fashioned realignments. This however seems impossible because in terms of one-off housing the N74 is absolutely ruined as a piece of upgradable infrastructure.

I'll show you what I mean:






Because of the height at which the above photos were taken, curves in the road that are very serious when driving are not so noticable. However, the one-off housing is, and it litters both sides of the N74 from start to finish. Many of these houses were built in the 00s.

Is the N74 the most ruined N-road in Ireland, or are there worse examples out there?

L1011

It is ruined, but it should also be detrunked when the N24 is dualled. Officially replaced or not, the N24+M8 journey will probably be quicker and will definitely be FAR safer.

Sponge Bob

The way to deal with these bad bend/bungalowed sections is to allocate a small amount for land purchase and construction of new wall. If the landowners agree to the greater good then go through with the cpo, build the new wall, and bulldoze the old wall and ditch out straight away.

Once you have a batch of land purchased then announce one realignment contract for maybe 3 or 4 of these bad bends at a time. If a landowner refuses to play ball then name and shame

Ghost Estate

Any close up pics of the road surface?

it surely can't be worse than the N72.

Amtmann

Ghost Estate wrote: »

Any close up pics of the road surface?

it surely can't be worse than the N72.

The surface is actually very good. It has been strengthened and is well lined and studded. The problems are the alignment (i.e. the bends), the geometry (i.e. it's extremely undulating) and the hundreds and hundreds of private accesses along it (i.e. houses and field entrances, often located on bends).

Sponge Bob

And the very best solution is to detrunk it to an L road, same with that N66 between Gort and Loughrea which has a dire bendy section HERE including a one way only width bridge.

marmurr1916

Thanks for showing us yet again why one-off housing is so detrimental to Ireland. Not only can this road not be improved without incurring great expense, the 'countryside' along the road has effectively been suburbanised.

I would love to see the introduction of a compulsory, non-refundable fee (even if planning is refused) of €10,000 for every one-off house planning application, along with the introduction of a special high stamp duty rate on the sale of one-off houses.

Anything that discourages one-off housing can only be good for the country.

The N74 will be largely redundant as a national secondary route once the N24 is improved and should be down-graded to a regional road when the N24 is improved.

Ghost Estate

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Thanks for showing us yet again why one-off housing is so detrimental to Ireland. Not only can this road not be improved without incurring great expense, the 'countryside' along the road has effectively been suburbanised.

I would love to see the introduction of a compulsory, non-refundable fee (even if planning is refused) of €10,000 for every one-off house planning application, along with the introduction of a special high stamp duty rate on the sale of one-off houses.

Anything that discourages one-off housing can only be good for the country.

The N74 will be largely redundant as a national secondary route once the N24 is improved and should be down-graded to a regional road when the N24 is improved.

one off housing, estates, large apartment blocks, terraced housing - building anything here now is a bad idea because there is a huge surplus.

there is nothing wrong with one off housing except that there is too much of it now but the same can be said for any other kind of housing. such is life in a post-property boom world

marmurr1916

Ghost Estate wrote: »

there is nothing wrong with one off housing except that there is too much of it now

I disagree. One-off housing, even before the recent property mania, was a blight on the landscape and has caused all sorts of environmental, social and economic problems.

Providing basic services, telecoms, electricity, water, sewerage, lighting, public transport, waste collection to dispersed one-off houses costs much more per capita than it does to provide services to clustered housing.

It also means that service providers, such as waste collectors, have to drive much further distances which increases pollution.

People who live in one-off housing also drive a hell of a lot more than people living in towns or cities simply because they're so much further away from shops, banks, schools, hospitals, doctors and all the other services and amenities.

I don't see why people can't at least live in villages where it would be much easier, cheaper and environmentally friendlier to provide all these services.

I wouldn't even let farmers and farm workers build one-off houses. They can build or buy a house in the nearest village and travel to the farm. That system has worked in Germany and other countries for centuries, there's no reason why it can't work in Ireland.

People think they have an almost unfettered right to build on their land. Fine, build away.

But only if you're prepared to pay the full cost of living in one-off house.

For example, people who live in Bandon town in Co. Cork pay the same waste charges to one of the private waste companies as people who live in one-off housing in the 'countryside' around Bandon.

This is despite the fact that it costs the waste company more in fuel and time (and wages) to collect the waste from one-off houses.

In effect, the people who live in the town are subsidising the people who live in the one-off houses. The same applies to pretty much any service.

A balance needs to be struck between people's right to live in rural areas and the right of everyone to enjoy the countryside and not have to put up with the negative consequences of one-off housing. That balance is nowhere evident in Ireland. The rights of individuals has taken precedence over our collective right to enjoy our national heritage. It's sad to say, but there are very few parts of Ireland where a person can go without being able to see tens of houses, perhaps hundreds, scattered across the landscape.

To get back OT, here's a good example of where one-off housing makes it nearly impossible to fix a dangerous bend on the N74 without spending a fortune:

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Cashel,+Ireland&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=14.149238,43.286133&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Cashel,+County+Tipperary,+Ireland&ll=52.504154,-7.96114&spn=0.028422,0.084543&t=h&z=14&layer=c&cbll=52.504111,-7.9613&panoid=fNsHBDs1yGCsQoscPcElcw&cbp=12,267.06,,0,9.29

L1011

Ghost Estate wrote: »

there is nothing wrong with one off housing except that there is too much of it now but the same can be said for any other kind of housing. such is life in a post-property boom world

There are countless things wrong with one off housing

1: Its effectively unservicable. Power, water cost huge amounts to provide, far more than the house builder is made pay - and we all pay for this through power prices and tax. Sewerage isn't provided, people are left using septic tank/biocycle/whatever todays buzzword is systems which are rarely maintained, can leach in to the water table and so on
2: Residents are entirely dependent on cars
3: Residents are socially isolated, especially those unable to drive themselves - children and the elderly.
4: There is no "countryside" left due to people's selfish desire to "live in the countryside". A desire that could have been satisfied by living in a country village rather than plonking a mansion in the middle of nowhere.

mk6705

marmurr1916 wrote: »

I disagree. One-off housing, even before the recent property mania, was a blight on the landscape and has caused all sorts of environmental, social and economic problems.

Providing basic services, telecoms, electricity, water, sewerage, lighting, public transport, waste collection to dispersed one-off houses costs much more per capita than it does to provide services to clustered housing.

It also means that service providers, such as waste collectors, have to drive much further distances which increases pollution.

People who live in one-off housing also drive a hell of a lot more than people living in towns or cities simply because they're so much further away from shops, banks, schools, hospitals, doctors and all the other services and amenities.

I don't see why people can't at least live in villages where it would be much easier, cheaper and environmentally friendlier to provide all these services.

I wouldn't even let farmers and farm workers build one-off houses. They can build or buy a house in the nearest village and travel to the farm. That system has worked in Germany and other countries for centuries, there's no reason why it can't work in Ireland.

People think they have an almost unfettered right to build on their land. Fine, build away.

But only if you're prepared to pay the full cost of living in one-off house.

For example, people who live in Bandon town in Co. Cork pay the same waste charges to one of the private waste companies as people who live in one-off housing in the 'countryside' around Bandon.

This is despite the fact that it costs the waste company more in fuel and time (and wages) to collect the waste from one-off houses.

In effect, the people who live in the town are subsidising the people who live in the one-off houses. The same applies to pretty much any service.

A balance needs to be struck between people's right to live in rural areas and the right of everyone to enjoy the countryside and not have to put up with the negative consequences of one-off housing. That balance is nowhere evident in Ireland. The rights of individuals has taken precedence over our collective right to enjoy our national heritage. It's sad to say, but there are very few parts of Ireland where a person can go without being able to see tens of houses, perhaps hundreds, scattered across the landscape.

To get back OT, here's a good example of where one-off housing makes it nearly impossible to fix a dangerous bend on the N74 without spending a fortune:

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Cashel,+Ireland&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=14.149238,43.286133&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Cashel,+County+Tipperary,+Ireland&ll=52.504154,-7.96114&spn=0.028422,0.084543&t=h&z=14&layer=c&cbll=52.504111,-7.9613&panoid=fNsHBDs1yGCsQoscPcElcw&cbp=12,267.06,,0,9.29

One-off housing is a problem yes, but that attitude is patronizing. I mean people can live where they want, whether it be a city, a village or the middle or nowhere. It's their own choice where they live and their own responsibility how much fuel or whatever else they use. People know when they buy a house how much they'll have to travel. Personally I like to be at least close enough to a big town, but I don't go around telling people from remote areas to blow up their house and move to a village, nor would I stop someone buying a house in a remote area. One-off housing is a problem, yes but that's the responsibility of county councils. It makes sense to not have houses on national and even alot of regional routes, but if someone wants to build a house on an L road, that's why should they be stopped? If I'm to guess, you live in Dublin...just guessing now. I doubt you've lived in a rural area anyway.

charlemont

When the road is not busy , its actually quiet a quick run to Cashel from Tipperary, but it clearly needs some improvement just as Golden needs a new bridge..

The road would test the patience of a saint, its got lots of agricultural vehicles travelling on it, they could at least take some corners and ditches out, but to detrunk it wouldnt make much difference, anyone driving to or from Tipp town, Golden or Cashel would still use the same road, save them going by Cahir J10..

If the money was there, a new road with narrow hard shoulders, staggered junctions or small roundabout if needed and a new bridge over the Suir at Golden, but it wont happen anytime soon

charlemont

Ghost Estate wrote: »

Any close up pics of the road surface?

it surely can't be worse than the N72.

Its not nearly as long as the N72, so id still say the N72 is by far worse, the Fermoy, Mallow section can only be described as murderous.. the section onwards to Killarney seems like an eternity..

limklad

marmurr1916 wrote: »

I wouldn't even let farmers and farm workers build one-off houses. They can build or buy a house in the nearest village and travel to the farm. That system has worked in Germany and other countries for centuries, there's no reason why it can't work in Ireland.

People think they have an almost unfettered right to build on their land. Fine, build away.

Farmers need to have homes on their farms, especially when they have dairy or any other type of animal livestock, especially sheep as Dog owners from nearby by houses, villages, towns do not tie up their dogs at night.
Most of the good dairy farmers are on Duty most of the day and work far more than the majority of people in this country. Farming livestock is not a 9 to 5 , 5 day a week Job it is far closer to 24 hour a day, 365 day than your Job. If you had any experience of farming you will understand this.

In Germany and other countries live together due to thugs and Armies raiding them over the centuries. Also in the continent they do not have large stock like they do here. They have small numbers of livestock per farms, most of their land is for growing food, you do not need to live there for that. Those on the continent, who do have large number of Livestock, live on their farms to oversee their stock.

marmurr1916

limklad wrote: »

Farmers need to have homes on their farms, especially when they have dairy or any other type of animal livestock, especially sheep as Dog owners from nearby by houses, villages, towns do not tie up their dogs at night.
Most of the good dairy farmers are on Duty most of the day and work far more than the majority of people in this country. Farming livestock is not a 9 to 5 , 5 day a week Job it is far closer to 24 hour a day, 365 day than your Job. If you had any experience of farming you will understand this.

In Germany and other countries live together due to thugs and Armies raiding them over the centuries. Also in the continent they do not have large stock like they do here. They have small numbers of livestock per farms, most of their land is for growing food, you do not need to live there for that. Those on the continent, who do have large number of Livestock, live on their farms to oversee their stock.

Fair enough, but why does anyone who isn't involved in farming need to live in the countryside? Do electricians need to live in the countryside?*

*not a dig at electricians, just the first job that came to mind.

One-off housing is a problem yes, but that attitude is patronizing. I mean people can live where they want, whether it be a city, a village or the middle or nowhere. It's their own choice where they live and their own responsibility how much fuel or whatever else they use.

That's fine, except for one major problem.

Everyone else suffers for the individual choice made by people who choose to live in one-off housing without necessity, either through having to subsidise the cost of providing services to them or through the extra pollution they cause.

If people who don't need to live in one-off housing were made to pay the full economic cost of their choice, my guess is that this choice would be made by a hell of a lot less people.

murphaph

limklad wrote: »

Farmers need to have homes on their farms, especially when they have dairy or any other type of animal livestock, especially sheep as Dog owners from nearby by houses, villages, towns do not tie up their dogs at night.
Most of the good dairy farmers are on Duty most of the day and work far more than the majority of people in this country. Farming livestock is not a 9 to 5 , 5 day a week Job it is far closer to 24 hour a day, 365 day than your Job. If you had any experience of farming you will understand this.

In Germany and other countries live together due to thugs and Armies raiding them over the centuries. Also in the continent they do not have large stock like they do here. They have small numbers of livestock per farms, most of their land is for growing food, you do not need to live there for that. Those on the continent, who do have large number of Livestock, live on their farms to oversee their stock.

Mate, NOBODY has a problem with a farmer living on the land. That is NATURAL. What is unnatural is the spread of bungalow blitz accross vast swathes of modern Ireland. How many of the one off houses along the N74 in the above images belong to a farmer? Honestly? 10%???

mk6705

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Fair enough, but why does anyone who isn't involved in farming need to live in the countryside? Do electricians need to live in the countryside?*

*not a dig at electricians, just the first job that came to mind.



That's fine, except for one major problem.

Everyone else suffers for the individual choice made by people who choose to live in one-off housing without necessity, either through having to subsidise the cost of providing services to them or through the extra pollution they cause.

If people who don't need to live in one-off housing were made to pay the full economic cost of their choice, my guess is that this choice would be made by a hell of a lot less people.

Well 40% of people live in rural areas, whether they chose to live their or not. The economic problem is the same according to your logic. A significant amount. It's something that's unique about our country, that makes us different from many others.

What do you want to do? Force people to live in towns? It's not like people living in cities don't use their cars. And there's very crude logic here. We'll say for example, you live somewhere in county Clare, we'll say you're 7 miles from where you work, in Ennis.

Another person lives in Newbridge, Co.Kildare. They work in Dublin and drive maybe 20 or 30 miles each day.

Who is going to travel further and who is going to spend longer stuck in traffic? Why don't we just blow up all commuter towns? All our problems are solved.

No one needs to live in the country side, with the exception of say farmers, but why the hell should someone have to live in town? For one, living in a rural area is nearly always much safer. The lives of people in Ireland are more important than imaginative green party style ideas.

marmurr1916

Adro947 wrote: »

Well 40% of people live in rural areas, whether they chose to live their or not.

The economic problem is the same according to your logic.

What are you on about? What does that mean?

Adro947 wrote: »

A significant amount. It's something that's unique about our country, that makes us different from many others.

Turning a blind eye to child abuse for decades is something that's unique about Ireland, that makes us different from many others. It's not something to be proud about. Neither is the fact that we have despoiled our landscape.

Adro947 wrote: »

What do you want to do? Force people to live in towns? It's not like people living in cities don't use their cars.

I never claimed that. It's a fact that if you live in a city you generally have a much better choice of whether or not to use your car. It's also a fact that the closer you live to your work and to services and amenities, the less distance you'll travel.

And there's very crude logic here. We'll say for example, you live somewhere in county Clare, we'll say you're 7 miles from where you work, in Ennis. Another person lives in Newbridge, Co.Kildare. They work in Dublin and drive maybe 20 or 30 miles each day. Who is going to travel further and who is going to spend longer stuck in traffic? Why don't we just blow up all commuter towns? All our problems are solved.

Or perhaps get people to live near where they work, instead of commuting by car. Or provide alternatives to commuting by car. Of course, it's a lot easier to provide an alternative to car based commuting to Newbridge than it is to a **** load of one-off houses scattered all over the countryside.

Commuting is only one aspect. People who live 7 miles from Ennis will have to drive 7 miles to go to a large supermarket. People who live in Newbridge won't. People who live in the countryside will have to drive long distances to see a doctor, people who live in Newbridge won't. People who live in the countryside will have to travel long distance to see a dentist, people who live in Newbrigde won't...

Adro947 wrote: »

No one needs to live in the country side, with the exception of say farmers, but why the hell should someone have to live in town? For one, living in a rural area is nearly always much safer. The lives of people in Ireland are more important than imaginative green party style ideas.

The lives of people in Ireland are being negatively affected by the mé féin attitude that many people who live in the countryside without necessity have.

If you don't need to live in the countryside, but insist on living there anyway, then you should have to pay the full economic cost of your choice.

I don't see why other people should have to subsidise people who choose to live miles from amenities and their place of work out of choice.

If people knew that making a choice to live in a one-off house was going to cost them a hell of a lot more money, then a hell of a lot more people wouldn't make that choice.

It doesn't mean they can't make the choice, it just means that if they do, they'll have to put up with the economic consequences of their choice.

JupiterKid

One-off rural houses have been a scourge on the Irish countryside.

In my opinion, they sum up all that is wrong with this immature little country. Selfish, me fein mentality and parish pump clentalist politics where your local TD or councillor can ensure that you get the "planning" for your obnoxious McMansion in the countryside in return for lifelong voting loyalty.

And yes, it's abundantly clear that the N74 has been ruined by a ribbon of one-off houses, but it's by no means the only National Secondary (or National Primary for that matter) route that has been affected in this way.