Limerick City - Commercial Rates Issue?

Raiser

Limerick City was mentioned again on Newstalk today as being among the most expensive Nationwide in terms of Commercial Rates?

Surely this is a ridiculous situation given what's on offer and secondly - Where does this money go, is there some black hole that they simply pour it into?*

- No wonder the City is suffocating slowly.







* No, this doesn't refer to the Limerick Main Drainage Fiasco.

Mc Love

Traffic lights my good man! Thats where the money is going!!! Everyone knows you have to reduce commercial rates to attract business into the city! Anyone who has ever played Sim City knows that!!

Builderfromhell

Many Council office and management staff are on huge salaries. The Council only gets so much from central government and the rest comes from rates. They will continue to harass businesses for rates to pay their salaries.

Other obstacles put in the way of new business start ups include;
1. Planning permission for change of use from say office, apt. to shop.
2. Planning permission for signage.
3. Once planning granted, after further info. requests taht could be 6 months you will be asked to pay for 'amenities', litter bins etc.
4. Fire cert application.
5. Public health clearance if dealing with food.
6. Tax administration costs (accountant)
7. Income tax, VAT, PAYE, Income levy, PRSI.
8. Employment legeslation
etc. etc.

You will then have to endure ;
1. Never ending petty crime and ocasional serious crime
2. Ongoing vandalism with re-decorating costa.
3. Loading bays permanently taken by private cars.
4. Parking fines for not parking in unavailable loading bay.
5. Dirty streets
6. Trying to look attractive when shops around you are boarded up.

On top of all that we have artificially high rents thanks to Nama valuations.

Rents and rates would need to drop considerably to encourage the many business people to take a chance.

RonMexico

+1 to all of that.

Any dingbat can see that the rates in Limerick are a serious impediment to new businesses starting up not to mention putting a severe squeeze on the few whose doors are still open.

Which is why practically every business in the city is for sale.

Cookiemunster

Yes the rates pay the salaries in city hall, but they also pay for you public water supply(city and county), sanitation, street lighting, the fire service (which also covers the suburbs in the county), upkeep of city parks and green area of estates, housing, etc.

They get an allocation from central government, but this dosen't cover all these costs. That allocation was cut in last years budget and will probably be cut again this year. Remember that Limerick City was the only LA in the country reducing rates before last year.

2010 budget report is here http://www.limerickcity.ie/Publications/Managers%20Report%20Draft%20Budget%202010%20Limerick%20City%20Council%20circulated%2015%20Dec%202009-1.pdf


The County Council has done its best to destroy the city centre through bad planning, allowing huge retails projects to be built just outside the city boundary which draws people out of the city. The Jetland and Coonagh shopping centre would never have gotten planning permission if they were inside the city boundary as City Council objected to them ( and the derelict Parkway Valley) but were ignored by An Bord Pleanana. If the boundary was extended and these centres brought into the city as well as Raheen Ind. Est. and Plassey then the city would be able to reduce the rates in the city center.

While I agree that City Council could do better, their hands are tied by the lack of a boundary extension and government cuts.

Amazotheamazing

Raiser wrote: »

Limerick City was mentioned again on Newstalk today as being among the most expensive Nationwide in terms of Commercial Rates?

Surely this is a ridiculous situation given what's on offer and secondly - Where does this money go, is there some black hole that they simply pour it into?*

- No wonder the City is suffocating slowly.







* No, this doesn't refer to the Limerick Main Drainage Fiasco.

You're the guy who bragged about not paying for parking in the city for 8 years, the city needs to charge high rates to cover the costs of running a city. It's typical in Ireland that people want a city to provide facilities without being willing to pay for them. Successive Governments have failed to provide all the cities in Ireland with proper funding so the cities have to raise money via rates, parking, etc. Limerick has reduced the rates it charges for the last two years, afaik, bringing them closer to the rates charged elsewhere in Ireland.

In an ideal world, of course, parking would be free, I hate paying for it myself, and rates wouldn't exist but every city needs money to provide services.

limklad

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Yes the rates pay the salaries in city hall, but they also pay for you public water supply (city and county), sanitation, street lighting, the fire service (which also covers the suburbs in the county), upkeep of city parks and green area of estates, housing, etc.

They get an allocation from central government, but this dosen't cover all these costs. That allocation was cut in last years budget and will probably be cut again this year. Remember that Limerick City was the only LA in the country reducing rates before last year.

2010 budget report is here http://www.limerickcity.ie/Publications/Managers%20Report%20Draft%20Budget%202010%20Limerick%20City%20Council%20circulated%2015%20Dec%202009-1.pdf


The County Council has done its best to destroy the city centre through bad planning, allowing huge retails projects to be built just outside the city boundary which draws people out of the city. The Jetland and Coonagh shopping centre would never have gotten planning permission if they were inside the city boundary as City Council objected to them ( and the derelict Parkway Valley) but were ignored by An Bord Pleanana. If the boundary was extended and these centres brought into the city as well as Raheen Ind. Est. and Plassey then the city would be able to reduce the rates in the city center.

While I agree that City Council could do better, their hands are tied by the lack of a boundary extension and government cuts.

There lots of bull in these comments here. The The Jetland and Coonagh shopping centre rates and every other Shopping centre within the city boundary including Parkway and Childers Road Retail are all paying rates into the city. The city is responsible for alot of it own mess. It allowed more out of town shopping centres expansion at the Parkway and Brand new Childers Road Retail which both are a major draw of shoppers away from the city centre. Aldi and Lidl on Childers road also another draw of Shoppers within the city boundary and out of Town Shopping.

Also Limerick Chamber of Commerce said in the Limerick Leader two weeks ago that the city council will not engage with them on anything except boundary issue. The City Manager completely ignores them on any vital issues Business in the city centre has, including traffic management in which the city is screwing up big time, since the Tunnel opened and Less cars and other Vehicles in the worst recession in Decades!! Nobody want to shop in a city centre where it is difficult to get in, around and out when they have busy lives. Public Transport was another issue they had and the councillors want to stop bus lanes into the city centre and the County have provide plenty to the city boundary.

You also forget the county also pay for services the city provide, You can bet your arse that the city do not give away anything for free. They get allocation from central government for water rates on the number of people it serves for water, not population within the boundary and additional charges from Clare and Limerick County council. Otherwise the city manager would have these issues at the stop of this list for cause of the boundary extension. He said nothing in this issue because it not an issue. It is the Rates his gripe, he want more, since he cannot attract more business into the centre city, he rather take over more forcing them to pay high Rates, which in turn in this very difficult Business environment in this very deep recession, will then forces them to close or move again, leaving the city with less rates again and back in the same old destructive pattern.

By the way the city gets it water supply from Clareville, Castleconnell in the county.

http://www.limerickcorp.ie/OurServices/WaterServices/ClarevilleWaterTreatmentPlant/
http://www.limerickcorp.ie/OurServices/WaterServices/

It Also Treats it Waster Water in the County at Bunlicky, near Cement Factory in the County.

Both Councils saves money by having shared services rather than build separate infrastructure an Infrastructure that the city inherited from the British, and Both councils and Clare county council pay their cost towards this infrastructure, It is not Totally on City Pockets as you claim, So you comments is erroneous and disingenuous in this regards.

Like most cities who push up costs (Various Rates/Taxes/Certs) for business throughout the world usually die, Just look at at various cities in the US. Limerick City may have drop it Rates from a very high value, but it is still far higher than other cities in Ireland, including Cork/Galway (before expansion) and Waterford which all have out of Town shopping centres and still have a thriving City centre areas. Do you see Dublin City Council complaining about the Out of City Shopping centres near the M50, all of them outside of its control?

Cookiemunster

limklad wrote: »

There lots of bull in these comments here. The The Jetland and Coonagh shopping centre rates and every other Shopping centre within the city boundary including Parkway and Childers Road Retail are all paying rates into the city. The city is responsible for alot of it own mess. It allowed more out of town shopping centres expansion at the Parkway and Brand new Childers Road Retail which both are a major draw of shoppers away from the city centre. Aldi and Lidl on Childers road also another draw of Shoppers within the city boundary and out of Town Shopping.

Jetland and Coonagh were built while they were in the county and both are failing miserably. The Parkway hasn't expanded in over 15 years. Aldi and Lidl are small supermarkets. When it comes to the Parkway Valley and Childers Roads, the large British chains want large premises that aren't available in the city centre. Better to build something insides the city limits before the county does outside. Amazingly even with the high rates both have full occupancy. Recently large premises have been built on Bedford Row and more would have been built if the Opera Centre had been built.

limklad wrote: »

Also Limerick Chamber of Commerce said in the Limerick Leader two weeks ago that the city council will not engage with them on anything except boundary issue. The City Manager completely ignores them on any vital issues Business in the city centre has, including traffic management in which the city is screwing up big time, since the Tunnel opened and Less cars and other Vehicles in the worst recession in Decades!! Nobody want to shop in a city centre where it is difficult to get in, around and out when they have busy lives. Public Transport was another issue they had and the councillors want to stop bus lanes into the city centre and the County have provide plenty to the city boundary.

I’m not up on the Limerick Chamber so I won’t comment on it. On the traffic management I’m willing to wait until the orbital route is actually finished before I pass judgement on it. Other than the lights on the Clondell Road NOTHING has changed since the tunnel opened.

limklad wrote: »

You also forget the county also pay for services the city provide, You can bet your arse that the city do not give away anything for free. They get allocation from central government for water rates on the number of people it serves for water, not population within the boundary and additional charges from Clare and Limerick County council. Otherwise the city manager would have these issues at the stop of this list for cause of the boundary extension. He said nothing in this issue because it not an issue. It is the Rates his gripe, he want more, since he cannot attract more business into the centre city, he rather take over more forcing them to pay high Rates, which in turn in this very difficult Business environment in this very deep recession, will then forces them to close or move again, leaving the city with less rates again and back in the same old destructive pattern.

By the way the city gets it water supply from Clareville, Castleconnell in the county.

http://www.limerickcorp.ie/OurServic...reatmentPlant/
http://www.limerickcorp.ie/OurServices/WaterServices/

It Also Treats it Waster Water in the County at Bunlicky, near Cement Factory in the County.
Both Councils saves money by having shared services rather than build separate infrastructure an Infrastructure that the city inherited from the British, and Both councils and Clare county council pay their cost towards this infrastructure, It is not Totally on City Pockets as you claim, So you comments is erroneous and disingenuous in this regards.

I never said they didn’t pay for them only that the city provided them. If the city took over the suburban businesses then city rates would drop. It’s ridiculous to surmise anything else.
Btw from you own link Limerick City Council claim to own the Claireville plant.
“Over four billion gallons (18,980,000m3) of drinking water are produced annually by Limerick City Council at the treatment plant in Castleconnell. Of this about 60% is delivered daily to the city. The remainder of the water is exported to consumers in County Limerick and County Clare”

limklad wrote: »

Like most cities who push up costs (Various Rates/Taxes/Certs) for business throughout the world usually die, Just look at at various cities in the US. Limerick City may have drop it Rates from a very high value, but it is still far higher than other cities in Ireland, including Cork/Galway (before expansion) and Waterford which all have out of Town shopping centres and still have a thriving City centre areas. Do you see Dublin City Council complaining about the Out of City Shopping centres near the M50, all of them outside of its control?

You bring up Cork, Galway and Waterford. Look at the table below from the 2006 cencus.

Comparison of Population and Size of Regional Irish Cities
City Population 2006 Area (ha)
Cork 119,100 3,961
Galway 72,000 5,057
Limerick 52,000 2,035
Waterford 45,800 4,157

Limerick City is half the area of Waterford and Cork and 1 1/2 times smaller than Galway. This means that almost all of the suburbs, retail and industrial areas around these cities are actually inside the city boundaries unlike Limerick which has most of its suburbs, retail and industrial areas just outside the boundary. Because of this the income to these cities from rates is larger therefore they can afford to charge lower rates.
I got that table from Cork Citys proposal for a boundary extension btw.
http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=9&ved=0CDkQFjAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.corkcity.ie%2Fnews%2Farchivednews2007%2Fboundary_extension.pdf&rct=j&q=galway%20city%20boundary%20extension&ei=PrbJTJ7cNpSSjAem-ZjlDw&usg=AFQjCNGGlL3ZchFPnv_0g6Ht2ILhDQoK8g&cad=rja
Waterford City also wants a boundary extension.
Why do you think that is?

limklad

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Jetland and Coonagh were built while they were in the county and both are failing miserably. The Parkway hasn't expanded in over 15 years. Aldi and Lidl are small supermarkets. When it comes to the Parkway Valley and Childers Roads, the large British chains want large premises that aren't available in the city centre. Better to build something insides the city limits before the county does outside. Amazingly even with the high rates both have full occupancy. Recently large premises have been built on Bedford Row and more would have been built if the Opera Centre had been built.


I’m not up on the Limerick Chamber so I won’t comment on it. On the traffic management I’m willing to wait until the orbital route is actually finished before I pass judgement on it. Other than the lights on the Clondell Road NOTHING has changed since the tunnel opened.


I never said they didn’t pay for them only that the city provided them. If the city took over the suburban businesses then city rates would drop. It’s ridiculous to surmise anything else.
Btw from you own link Limerick City Council claim to own the Claireville plant.
“Over four billion gallons (18,980,000m3) of drinking water are produced annually by Limerick City Council at the treatment plant in Castleconnell. Of this about 60% is delivered daily to the city. The remainder of the water is exported to consumers in County Limerick and County Clare”




You bring up Cork, Galway and Waterford. Look at the table below from the 2006 cencus.

Comparison of Population and Size of Regional Irish Cities
City Population 2006 Area (ha)
Cork 119,100 3,961
Galway 72,000 5,057
Limerick 52,000 2,035
Waterford 45,800 4,157

Limerick City is half the area of Waterford and Cork and 1 1/2 times smaller than Galway. This means that almost all of the suburbs, retail and industrial areas around these cities are actually inside the city boundaries unlike Limerick which has most of its suburbs, retail and industrial areas just outside the boundary. Because of this the income to these cities from rates is larger therefore they can afford to charge lower rates.
I got that table from Cork Citys proposal for a boundary extension btw.
http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=9&ved=0CDkQFjAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.corkcity.ie%2Fnews%2Farchivednews2007%2Fboundary_extension.pdf&rct=j&q=galway%20city%20boundary%20extension&ei=PrbJTJ7cNpSSjAem-ZjlDw&usg=AFQjCNGGlL3ZchFPnv_0g6Ht2ILhDQoK8g&cad=rja
Waterford City also wants a boundary extension.
Why do you think that is?

The Parkway Retail Park was built within the city bounds in recent years. The Shopping retail within the whole Parkway area was increased during the booms years.

When you use services as a reason for extension of the boundary then you comments about city rates to pay for them then your comments are disingenuous which lead to false assumptions, then you still make comments about water volume when I already said both Council share the same water services and both pay for it along with government funding. Even after expansion both will still use the same water services, as service inherited from the British times.

Limerick Chamber of Commerce has a lot to be afraid off especially when the city is not listening to them, if the city continues to run the city badly and business will suffer on top off this already deep recession and have to endure the city Manager failed policies. Then Business have no choice under finanical reason in order to survive, they will have to move where they can do business and customers will come. The County Council is not perfect, but it is far more open to business than the city council is. Even after the City expands and if the city council keep it failed and closed door policies, then then business costs will increase due higher rates than it will pay now and have less sales due to customers financial pressures and costs for products will increase, then the consumer will vote by their feet and shop elsewhere including Galway and Cork. High cost for business where where councils gets it Rates only kills business and therefore less Money for Councils.

As for traffic management:
The very day the Tunnel open alot of less traffic (13,500 vehicles) passed through the city, look at direct route figures, so I do not know where you think that it remained the same. Alot of my collegues who live in Caherdavin, who work in Raheen have all the same statement. As soon as the schools opened, dropping off their kids in the city centre schools, their travel times was in comparison to pre tunnel days. Now they say after a few changes in Traffic especially at Condell road, it is back to the same travel times it took them to travel during the boom days. The Dock Road disappear from AA roadwatch soon after the Tunnel opened, and now back in the reports after the city traffic modifications in the Third week of September, three week after the schools opened. Even after they stop Right hand turn from Lower Shelbourne Road direction is traffic travel times still the same as boom times with alot less vehicles mentioned on AA roadwatch.

I was at the Limerick Tunnel talks before planning was approved and they said that the City will make life difficult for anyone who will avoid the Tunnel in order avoid paying the Toll, by reducing the Condell Road speed Limits to 50kph, and add extra Traffic lights throughout the city and Dock road to encourage people to use the Tunnel. The recession has dropped traffic everywhere in the country and the City council have manage to keep the travel times the same as boom times with a bypass in place. A friend living in Garryowen who has the same complaint travelling out to Shannon to work everyday and he has to drop his young kids to two schools in the city centre so using the tunnel is both out of his way and too time consuming for him to use.
When the Tunnel open during the summer Traffic dropped and they all noticed the drop within the city and ease of movement, now it as bad again. It is a known fact that extra Traffic lights causes more Traffic problems than Roundabouts and the City is planning in getting rid of the biggest functional roundabout in the city at the Shannon Bridge and replacing it with Traffic lights!!! Nobody want to shop where they going to spent a lot of time waiting at traffic lights and sitting in traffic!! People want to be able to gets to the shop or other leisures activities with minimal times and get back home to their families.

By the way there is plenty of stores with space within the city and do not need the elephant Opera centre for the British retail stores to move into today and there is more every week when business are failing under the recession. When they move out or close from within the city centre creating more space for others, All you have to do is walk the streets of Limerick for closes premises.

The city business needs the surround region to survive, and business within the city need customers outside the city from Clare, Tipperary, and Limerick Counties area to keep coming into the city. If the City council continues to cause more misery to outside customers, then they will move their custom to other more easily accessible business in other towns and cities. It is not wise for Limerick city to pi**ed them off with their continues failed policies.

Here the support from the city council for a business person who started his business and the thanks and appreciation they show for new business to pay rates for their services.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/kfmheygbcwau/rss2/
Nobody wants a dead Limerick City, but everybody wants a properly efficient managed one.

Raiser

limklad

Raiser wrote: »

I do not think it is corruption is the main problem with the city, it is the method, policies and attitude that the city council has applied in destroying the city business. They (the city council) should be out there to help and encourage business, Help new business to start, The more business willing to start up/move within the town Centre the more Rates the city will get to pay for it services. I have yet to see the City doing it bit to help with issues in encourage consumers into the city centre like Galway and Cork, rather than plunder existing resources and hostile take over of more areas.

A Joint up council administering two areas will save money, reduce duplication of services and reduce Council members, in which the Council manager has overriding authority over Councils members plans or voted proposals anyway.
The less we pay for expenses such a €100 Euro's for a course, Travel costs and Accommodation & Food costs for training to use facebook, that any kid could teach them for free, the more money we have for much needed services.

HamiltonViews

You make a valid point. If the two councils were joined together then we would have just one working for the benefit of all. Despite Limerick being so small the two councils only work together on issues where either the scale of the investment is too big for one of them to handle (like water supply) or where they are told and instructed to operate together (like national roads). Where they have the resources or the option of not working together that is exactly what they do. So unlike other authorities which try to save money when it makes sense to work together the two Limerick's won't. So while Cork has one motor taxation system for far more people Limerick has two. Tipperary has one library services system. Limerick has two. There are other examples too.

The Brosnan report says €20m could be saved if the two councils were one. Of course the city council, which has no idea how to plan and manage the city, are up in arms about their history and their titles. This is typical. They should be more worried about the future for everyone who lives or depends on the city, but they are not.

While the orbital route is a fine idea the number of proposed traffic light junctions that the city council is now planning is also a good example of their competence to plan. Normally you put lights in place to reflect increased traffic. Limerick are now doing to reflect deceased traffic. Until the tunnel is open and operating for at least 12 to 18 months the city can't determined a trend in traffic and therefore whatever trends they are basing their traffic light arguments on are historic and pre-tunnel. Typical of them to base decisions on the 'past'. It is also well known that Limerick's traffic often used to flow better when the lights were not working!

I got an email the other day to say the chamber is launching a campaign to implement the Brosnan report in full. There is an on line petition as part of it and they seem to have over 300 sign ups already. Some good views are posted on it too. You can get to it via the limerick chamber website.

There is no doubt but that Limerick has to change if it is to survive and if commercial operators and retailers are going to see any future for keeping their business in the city, or setting up in the first place.

Builderfromhell

I know of several business people who have stopped paying rates for some time. Not out of choice in all cases, it's just they can't afford it and are clinging on to survive.
Others are not paying rates as they are p**sed off with the waste and poor service hey get for their money.
If and when these businesses do finally close I expect the Council will never get paid rates due.

kilburn

I think we all need to remember that this shower were voted in and we just gotta remember to fook them out next election

ninty9er

Before anyone goes on a Fianna Fáil rant, I take great pleasure in pointing out that there are 17 Limerick City Councillors, only 1 is Fianna Fáil, and there were only 2 on the previous council.

That said:

It doesn't take a genius to work out that 130 occupied buildings at an average of €3.5k is better (not only for aesthetic and business confidence, but also slightly financially) than 40 empty buildings at €0 and 90 occupied ones at an average of €5k

Mc Love

The very latest from Bock:

http://bocktherobber.com/2010/11/closing-local-business

tis a sad day!

Raiser

Mc Love wrote: »

The very latest from Bock:

http://bocktherobber.com/2010/11/closing-local-business

tis a sad day!

Limerick City Council - They'd dig their own grave is they weren't so greedy and lazy.

Amazotheamazing

Mc Love wrote: »

The very latest from Bock:

http://bocktherobber.com/2010/11/closing-local-business

tis a sad day!

It's a pity Bock doesn't use his incredible powers of pointing out the obvious to give a detailed breakdown of the funding the city gets from central government, the funding they get from rates and the outlay the city council has every year.

As usual, people want a nice city centre to magically appear.

Builderfromhell

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

It's a pity Bock doesn't use his incredible powers of pointing out the obvious to give a detailed breakdown of the funding the city gets from central government, the funding they get from rates and the outlay the city council has every year.

As usual, people want a nice city centre to magically appear.

I think people want obviouse waste to disappear.

Amazotheamazing

Builderfromhell wrote: »

I think people want obviouse waste to disappear.

All Irish cities are underfunded from central government so all cities have to bring in extra money from rates, parking etc. This is particularly true of the regional cities.

There is definitely waste that could be cut from Limerick's budget, but a far more pressing problem is that to remodel an entire city, provide services, etc costs a lot more than people are willing to realise.

Bock would be better off finding out about the outlay Limerick faces. Even in the above example he doesn't bother to compare the costs Limerick charges to those in Waterford, Cork or Galway, maybe there's a real story there but he's too lazy to find it. Still, he appeals to the masses who want to be mis-informed so good for him.

Builderfromhell

I'm confused. Why is it up to Bock to research the data and find solutions to Limerick's problems. I don't remember electing or appointing him to run things.

Limerick businesses pay rtaes to Limerick City Council and have a right to expect that money to be wisely and prudently spent. If I had time I could list numerous examples of Council waste and inefficiency.

TheInquisitor

Rateable value in Dublin is 62.63 in limerick city its 76.45. Madness, Complete MADNESS!

http://www.dublincity.ie/Business/CommercialRates/Pages/HowRatesareCalculated.aspx

http://www.limerick.ie/Finance/AccountsReceivable/RatesBillingsandCollection/