spare the rod, spoil the politician, banker

Shea O'Meara

A number of threads talk about corrupt politicians & bankers who damaged the state.
We see some fines, sacking but with massive pensions, dismissed from a party, to be later brought back to the fold if there is a party seat in it, but little actual jail time and the penalties show little comparison to the accountabilities/damage done.
More than a blue collar/white collar issue but a class issue.
Examples: You're part of a murder investigation but from a well to do background, you go to your headmaster before the police, you get time off to take exams.
You're a child in a working class area, you steal an ice cream you go to a state home until adulthood.
You're a politician, you defraud the country helping ensure you get yours while millions suffer at your expense, you get fined, maybe.
These are factual examples I have read about, mentioned just to paint the picture.

I'm asking, if people from certain parts of society, those most likely to be the politicians and bankers of tomorrow grow up never having a line one must not cross because if they do they may only have to pay a fine and/or retire with a fat pension so it doesn't really mean anything, more of a guide, how can we expect such people to worry about it?
If you weigh up a person stealing a car getting a period in prison to a person defrauding the state for hundreds of thousands possibly getting the sack and a fine, the smart crooks will go into politics and banking. More money less accountability.

Isn't it time we demanded custodial sentences for crimes which cause suffering, however directly or indirectly to others?
To me blue collar is immediate, easy to see the consequences.
White collar too difficult for the law to trace the suffering caused?

I feel we should make a direct correlation to the victims, be it one man or woman who lost belongings or the people of this country on a mass scale losing jobs, homes etc.

In short, shouldn't people found to have defrauded the state see the inside of a cell as much as a side street mugger?

Andrew H

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

In short, shouldn't people found to have defrauded the state see the inside of a cell as much as a side street mugger?

I personally think some kind of RICO legislation should be introduced in Ireland "Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act of 1970 (RICO) form the United States".

It is quite obvious that top echelons of the Banking Sector, Property Developers, Construction Industry Federation, Union Officials & Politicians turned at the very least a blind eye to certain goings on while serving on various Quangos (e.g. trips abroad, hair do's, loans through Anglo for family members to down right corruption - moving vast sums of money to hide from the Ombudsman, rezoning issues etc..)

The ordinary man, woman and child on the street is paying for this why shouldent they?

Laminations

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

I'm asking, if people from certain parts of society, those most likely to be the politicians and bankers of tomorrow grow up never having a line one must not cross because if they do they may only have to pay a fine and/or retire with a fat pension so it doesn't really mean anything, more of a guide, how can we expect such people to worry about it? .

In short, shouldn't people found to have defrauded the state see the inside of a cell as much as a side street mugger?

I agree Shea, but I'd argue that society is rotten (too strong a word.... Let's say dysfunctional) at both ends. There are no lines to be crossed or at least people don't respect them both at the top and the bothm of society. Lines it appears, like taxes are meant only for the middle working class. Read Utiks thread on crime in her area and it demonstrates how we have feral youths with no boundaries or fear of consequence racking up (if the gardai bother to catch them) 'previous convictions'. The 21 yr old Gaffney kid who is in court because gardai allegedly assaulted him has 27 previous, one being assaulting a Garda. So many of these repeat offenders should be in jail but we use a third of our space in prison for the non-payment of fines? Would higher rates of incarceration for fraudsters at the expense of space for violent criminals make us feel better?

Prison should be about protecting society and rehabilitating the criminal. A sentence acts as a deterrent to others not to engage in that behaviour while also removing the offender from society for societies protection and for rehabilitation, at least that's how it SHOULD work. If we don't have space for both violent criminals and fraudsters then I'd prefer violent criminals to go in and for us to deal with fraudsters and White collar criminals another way, but deal withthey we must. Bankrupting well to do individuals who have crossed the line is the best punishment for them. Strip them of everything and this will act as a deterrent. Ban them from directing any more companies, put them in a council house and make them get a clerical job and/or look forward to just a state pension. Hitting the elite of our society in the pocket (with appropriate community service) is the best way to tackle them because they value their pride, their position, their power- strip them of this, shame them amongst their peers and it's as good as a spell in jail. And it's a mighty good deterrent but just like the other end of the criminal spectrum if they are not caught or punished at all, the deterrent will collapse. If there is no appearance of consequence the deterrent will fail. It's the apparent impunity with which both anti social toe rags and White collar Michael Lynn types act that grinds on society. We need to start cracking down across the system but every crime does not deserve a jail cell, you can make people repent and regret and never offend again with the stroke of a pen.

Lenny Lovett

The problem is that if we don't punish the people who caused this current downfall severely, then we leave ourselves wide open to a recurrance.

johngalway

What's the saying about being doomed to repeat history if we don't learn from it.

In reality, there is very, very little accountability in Ireland for wrong doings. Everyone clamours to grab a bit of the credit but the buck stops at no ones desk when things go bad.

CoalBucket

The thread reminded me of the Brian Murphy case in Annabels nightclub which always turns my stomach. In my opinion, if the people involved in that case were "blue collar" they would still be in Mountjoy

padma

The case imo is down to class, we live in a class system in Ireland. If a judge has two criminals in his court, ie the case of Brian Murphy, and say the case of the lad that stabbed his uncle in Cork, in a domestic. The guy in Cork got the couple of years in prison. Brian Murphy was let go. Do they discriminate. It would seem like they do. Kind of an attitude whereby the person from a better socio economic background, can't go to prison because prison is for poor people, not rich people.

This does not show an equal and fair Ireland, it shows a class system where the petty criminal and of course the more dangerous criminal element plus those who can't afford to pay fines get sentences in prison. Whereas some of the wealthier (class?) criminals get off with suspended sentences.

If by giving the wealthier class community service and stripping them of power, as by the example in a previous post suggests, were to be implemented, it is imo giving one law for the rich and another for the poor. So in essence if you rob the country of millions you do a bit of community service and this would be a deterrent, I seriously wouldn't believe it would work as a deterrent. Jail time, would be the bigger deterrent as then they would be in prison with the lower class (as is currently in prison) and slopping out every day like the rest of the criminal fraternity.

CoalBucket

padma wrote: »

The case imo is down to class, we live in a class system in Ireland. If a judge has two criminals in his court, ie the case of Brian Murphy, and say the case of the lad that stabbed his uncle in Cork, in a domestic. The guy in Cork got the couple of years in prison. Brian Murphy was let go. Do they discriminate. It would seem like they do. Kind of an attitude whereby the person from a better socio economic background, can't go to prison because prison is for poor people, not rich people.

This does not show an equal and fair Ireland, it shows a class system where the petty criminal and of course the more dangerous criminal element plus those who can't afford to pay fines get sentences in prison. Whereas some of the wealthier (class?) criminals get off with suspended sentences.

If by giving the wealthier class community service and stripping them of power, as by the example in a previous post suggests, were to be implemented, it is imo giving one law for the rich and another for the poor. So in essence if you rob the country of millions you do a bit of community service and this would be a deterrent, I seriously wouldn't believe it would work as a deterrent. Jail time, would be the bigger deterrent as then they would be in prison with the lower class (as is currently in prison) and slopping out every day like the rest of the criminal fraternity.

Agree largely with your point, just one correction though, Brian Murphy was the victim in that case.

A good report on the case is available here

http://www.tribune.ie/archive/article/2006/apr/30/so-what-did-happen-to-brian-murphy/

padma

My mistake, No excuses, just remember the trial and sensationalism at the time surrounding his death.

Shea O'Meara

feelingstressed wrote: »

Banker is the most ridiculous term too easily thrown around.

It includes the lowliest cashier sitting a supervisor course with the Institute of Bankers way up to top executives.
Well to be fair to the OP, you've made a distinction

Many don't before they start ranting about bankers

Firstly this is not a rant as you put it. I'm asking a valid question and went to great pains not to mention names of people or parties.
But as you quite rightly state a 'banker' is a broad term. I am a banker for I hold a bank account. If I made the distinction, why the need to get pedantic about the term 'banker', I'm referring to those within the finance industry in a position to cause the state and public at large harm. I hope that clears it up for you. Oh and by 'politician' I wasn't referring to the Irish Amassador for Laos or Mary McAlesse.

southsiderosie

I agree that Ireland needs stronger fraud and perjury legislation. But as Einstein said, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

The best way to punish bad politicians is to STOP VOTING FOR THEM.

feicim

southsiderosie wrote: »

...
The best way to punish bad politicians is to STOP VOTING FOR THEM.

I don't think this goes far enough. Where is the accountability? That would allow all the slimeballs who caused this mess to simply walk away scot free.

Preferably, the people of ireland should boycott their businesses and send them into "coventry" (at the very least). Treat them like the pariahs that they are.

If the "justice" system in this country won't punish them, then the citizens of ireland should take the punishment of treasonous politicians into their own hands.

The laws are made by these creeps, so of course they will be able to hide behind them. The laws are supposed to be there to protect the citizens of Ireland, when these have been subverted by our politicians its time to kick some ass. Sharpen the guillotine I say!

southsiderosie

feicim wrote: »

I don't think this goes far enough. Where is the accountability? That would allow all the slimeballs who caused this mess to simply walk away scot free.

Preferably, the people of ireland should boycott their businesses and send them into "coventry" (at the very least). Treat them like the pariahs that they are.

If the "justice" system in this country won't punish them, then the citizens of ireland should take the punishment of treasonous politicians into their own hands.

The laws are made by these creeps, so of course they will be able to hide behind them. The laws are supposed to be there to protect the citizens of Ireland, when these have been subverted by our politicians its time to kick some ass. Sharpen the guillotine I say!

The accountability should come from the legal system, which I mentioned in the first part of my post that you deleted.

I think the current government is a disaster, and there are several current and former members of Fianna Fail that should be under indictment right now, but I do not believe in mob "justice".