What different health professions are paid

JuliusCaesar

There's been a fair amount of sniping, so it might be interesting to have a more realistic idea of what different professions earn. from here, so a little out of date.

Physiotherapy & other therapy professions
Physiotherapist 36,232 - 47,318
Physiotherapist, Senior 48,368 - 57,255
Physiotherapist, Manager 58,659 - 71,686

Psychologists
June 07- Basic Grade: €54,776 - €57,185- €59,580- €61,955- €64,944- €69,492- €73,603- €77,768- €81,159- €83,776- €86,397, LSIs.
June 07- Senior Clinical and Counselling: €80,210- €82,116- €84,039- €85,950- €87,848- €88,575- €91,426 - €94,281, LSIs .

Staff Nurse 30,323 - 42,165
Clinical Nurse Manager 1 41,663 - 49,404
Clinical Nurse Manager 2 46,166 - 53,969
Clinical Nurse Specialist 46,166 - 53,969
Clinical Nurse Manager 3 53,556 - 59,492
Director of Nursing 54,835 - 82,931

etc etc. Just to bring some realism here. What health profession would you like to go into, just for the money?

lonestargirl

This link gives the official DOHC salary scales, current as of Jan 2010.

Just as a point of comparison I looked up the salary scale for the institution that I work in now for one profession.
Radiation Therapist: IRL 36,187 - 51,213
USA 41,677 - 70,420 (converted into Euro with today's exchange rate)

tallaght01

It's hard to make much of a judgement from the first post, as most of us wouldn't know how long it takes to become a senior physio, for eg. My mate was a senior physio in the UK 3 years after qualifying.

I think, as a rule, healthcare workers deserve a good wage. In our public health unit (in Oz), the 3 nurses on my team get paid slightly more than me. I'm happy for them, even though they spend a significant amount of time coming to me for advice. But they work hard and are very good at their jobs. But they are in a better union than I am, so fair play.

The only group I object to being paid well are "noctors". Total waste of money, and a false economy. I'd make them all redundant.

JuliusCaesar

I guess there's a lot more overlap between professions in mental health than on the general medical/physical side.

I did all my training in London and promotion tended to be much faster than here in Ireland. Here people can linger in basic grades waiting for retirements, dead mens' shoes etc. Not sure why psychologists are so well paid in comparision.

mardybumbum

Excuse my ignorance but what is a Noctor?

tallaght01

mardybumbum wrote: »

Excuse my ignorance but what is a Noctor?

It's the name given to a "non doctor" doing a doc's job. they're usually more expensive and take training time away from NCHDs.

Very common in the UK and USA, and becoming more common in Ireland. Most commonly take the form of advanced nurse practitioners in A+E, or physios doing ortho clinics, or nurses on the registrar rota in specialist units, such as NICU and CCU, or nurses doing endoscopies. GP surgeries are hiring them instead of GPs commonly in the UK, and one trust is replacing a consultant paediatrician with one!

They're becoming much more common in Ireland. 30 days of prescribing training and they're let loose! They're different to specialist nurses (eg diabetes, epilepsy etc) who are invaluable.



A few websites explaining it better than me:

http://sandmansprogress.blogspot.com/2006/07/rise-of-noctor.html

http://ferretfancier.blogspot.com/2007/12/noctor-growing-pain.html

http://leatherheadblog.com/2008/01/28/the-rise-of-the-noctors/

http://www.drrant.net/2008/01/lets-play-at-being-noctors.html

Traumadoc

Yes they are inefficient but the HSE sees it as the way forward, and the supertanker that it is takes a long time to turn around. Do not get in the way when its heading towards you.

opinion guy

Frickin hell I had no idea psychologists made so much

mardybumbum

tallaght01 wrote: »

It's the name given to a "non doctor" doing a doc's job. they're usually more expensive and take training time away from NCHDs.

Very common in the UK and USA, and becoming more common in Ireland. Most commonly take the form of advanced nurse practitioners in A+E, or physios doing ortho clinics, or nurses on the registrar rota in specialist units, such as NICU and CCU, or nurses doing endoscopies. GP surgeries are hiring them instead of GPs commonly in the UK, and one trust is replacing a consultant paediatrician with one!

They're becoming much more common in Ireland. 30 days of prescribing training and they're let loose! They're different to specialist nurses (eg diabetes, epilepsy etc) who are invaluable.



A few websites explaining it better than me:

http://sandmansprogress.blogspot.com/2006/07/rise-of-noctor.html

http://ferretfancier.blogspot.com/2007/12/noctor-growing-pain.html

http://leatherheadblog.com/2008/01/28/the-rise-of-the-noctors/

http://www.drrant.net/2008/01/lets-play-at-being-noctors.html

I attending a seminar recently in Harolds X Hospice, on "The Role of the Advanced Nurse Practitioner in Palliative Care", given by the woman herself.
I got the impression that she was an invaluable assett to Palliative care in this country, and that it took many years of experience and further education to reach her level of expertise. Certainly nothing like mentioned in those blogs.
Perhaps I should be a tad more skeptical in future.

tallaght01

mardybumbum wrote: »

I attending a seminar recently in Harolds X Hospice, on "The Role of the Advanced Nurse Practitioner in Palliative Care", given by the woman herself.
I got the impression that she was an invaluable assett to Palliative care in this country, and that it took many years of experience and further education to reach her level of expertise. Certainly nothing like mentioned in those blogs.
Perhaps I should be a tad more skeptical in future.

You will never find anyone as confident in a hospital as a person with te words "advanced" and "practitioner" in their title.

The hospice ward nurses, community nurses, night triage nurses are worth their weight in gold. Don't confuse these guys and the other great nurses you're going to meet in your career with the ANPs who will someday be the bane of your life.

kelle

opinion guy wrote: »

Frickin hell I had no idea psychologists made so much

Nor did I - we went for the wrong jobs!

Pay for Radiographers - not nearly enough:D

Odysseus

I'm after your job, JC;). That is why I'm always suggesting psychology to those ask how to become a psycgologist. 20,000 reasons in this thread. Plus there is no career ladder, only position left for me would be my line managers job. They are caught up in meeting so much they only have a half days clinical work every week. After that it would be moving out of clinical work.

My long term plan would be increase my lecturering and develop mu private work so that I could reduce my time with the HSE to three days a week. That would be a good balance that would keep me involved directly with people on methadone. In other words, whilst I could do with some extra cash, I don't want to leave the coal face for a nice cushy job in a treatment center.

JuliusCaesar

tallaght01 wrote: »

You will never find anyone as confident in a hospital as a person with te words "advanced" and "practitioner" in their title.

The hospice ward nurses, community nurses, night triage nurses are worth their weight in gold. Don't confuse these guys and the other great nurses you're going to meet in your career with the ANPs who will someday be the bane of your life.

To be fair, all the links you gave support your view. Here's another side. And here. Your opinion may not be generally shared

tallaght01

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

To be fair, all the links you gave support your view. Here's another side. And here. Your opinion may not be generally shared

Well, I'd expect nurse practitioners, and the nursing body that lobbies for increased professional responsibility for nurses to be broadly supportive of the concept.

JuliusCaesar

OK, fair enough. So I've done a quick google for efficacy: an article in the BMJ regarding primary care; J of Cardiology on post-op; and ICU. these are both outside of the hospice, community, and triage nurses you say are ok (I think - if community isn't necessarily primary care).

Though there does seem to be a paucity of research outside of primary care and A&E - but I'm looking on my home computer so I'm limited to Google. Lots on cost-effectiveness though! :rolleyes:

Nchd2010

Can you find any research that suggests that patients would rather be cared for by nurse practitioners than doctors?

tallaght01

Nchd2010 wrote: »

Can you find any research that suggests that patients would rather be cared for by nurse practitioners than doctors?

Research has concistently shown higher patient satusfaction for NPs. BUt those same studies have always had longer consultation times and more investigations by the NPs.

I'm only familiar wit the first paper that JC has linked too, and havent had time to read the others. But the BMJ paper was a systemic review...but the studies were very heterogenous, some of the conclusions were from the 70s (!) and the quality of care data only actually included minor injuries with simple protocols. It also made no common on how closely they were supervised (ie a NP who has access to an A+E consultant is likely to make less cockups in minor injuries, as they can ask about difficult xrays etc). This is very different to the independent practitioners who are cropping up in many countries. And none of the studies are powered to assess their capability to deal with rarer conditions or atypical presentations, the recognition of which are an important part of a doctor's role.

Essentially it showed that NPs take longer, do more investigation, and can follow a simple protocol for minor injuries, which I don't think is a surprise to anyone who's worked with them.

JuliusCaesar

Probably a little off topic, but would doctors have more job satisfaction if they could have more time with patients?

(I'll come clean here and say that I've had some very unsatisfactory interactions with doctors during my professional life [generally because they insist they know more than me in my field!! and only in Ireland. In the UK they were a lot less defensive] and more recently on the other side of the desk. )

tallaght01

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

Probably a little off topic, but would doctors have more job satisfaction if they could have more time with patients?

(I'll come clean here and say that I've had some very unsatisfactory interactions with doctors during my professional life [generally because they insist they know more than me in my field!! and only in Ireland. In the UK they were a lot less defensive] and more recently on the other side of the desk. )

Welcome to the world of an NCHD, where every man and his dog in the hospital tells you you're pretty much useless.

Except if we got shirty because another healthcare worker claims more knowledge than us, we'd be branded as arrogant,

lonestargirl

tallaght01 wrote: »

Except if we got shirty because another healthcare worker claims more knowledge than us, we'd be branded as arrogant,

I think this is a very negative comment, the whole point of allied healh professionals is to provide specialised knowledge in a small, specific area of healthcare. I would think it arrogant of a doctor to assume that they could do my job (I certainly couldn't do theirs). I have to say this is not an attitude that I have experienced personally in my career, I have always got respect for my skills and I hope that I expressed the same sentiment in reverse.

This respect and appreciation for the skills of doctors is conpletely missing from the health service admin. They only see the bottom line and almost see patients as an 'inconvenience'. The work done by health professionals is consisently under-valued and under-respected (and doctors bear this far more than any other health professional).

tallaght01

lonestargirl wrote: »

I think this is a very negative comment, the whole point of allied healh professionals is to provide specialised knowledge in a small, specific area of healthcare. I would think it arrogant of a doctor to assume that they could do my job (I certainly couldn't do theirs). I have to say this is not an attitude that I have experienced personally in my career, I have always got respect for my skills and I hope that I expressed the same sentiment in reverse.

This respect and appreciation for the skills of doctors is conpletely missing from the health service admin. They only see the bottom line and almost see patients as an 'inconvenience'. The work done by health professionals is consisently under-valued and under-respected (and doctors bear this far more than any other health professional).

I'm not trying to be negative. As a fluffy, tree hugging public health doc, I probably work as closely with non medics as anyone else. Note in this thread I said I was happy enough that the nurses on my team get paid more than me.

The point I'm trying to make is that (and I think any other doc would back this up) lots of allied health professionals make derogatory comments about docs.

It's very common in casual conversation for dieticians to talk about how little docs know about nutrition, or physiotherapists talk about how little docs know about rehab stuff, pharmacists talk a lot about how often they have to ring GPs to correct their prescriptions etc.Nurse practitioners slag off docs all the time.

When the role is reversed, we're arrogant.

If an orthopod complains about his departments crap physios, he's arrogant. Same if I were to complain about our nurses, dieticians etc.

I have much love for my allied health colleagues, but they defo get away with slagging us off a lot.

lonestargirl

tallaght01 wrote: »

It's very common in casual conversation for dieticians to talk about how little docs know about nutrition, or physiotherapists talk about how little docs know about rehab stuff, pharmacists talk a lot about how often they have to ring GPs to correct their prescriptions etc.Nurse practitioners slag off docs all the time.

That kind of behaviour is completely unprofessional. Maybe I have a very rosy picture of the doctor-health professional interaction as rad onc is a very small and unique profession and the them-vs-us attitude doesn't seem to exist much there.

opinion guy

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

Probably a little off topic, but would doctors have more job satisfaction if they could have more time with patients?

(I'll come clean here and say that I've had some very unsatisfactory interactions with doctors during my professional life [generally because they insist they know more than me in my field!! and only in Ireland. In the UK they were a lot less defensive] and more recently on the other side of the desk. )

Yeah I get this the whole time in Ireland - and only in Ireland. Its weird when in another country and people actually want to know what I think.

tallaght01 wrote: »

It's very common in casual conversation for dieticians to talk about how little docs know about nutrition, or physiotherapists talk about how little docs know about rehab stuff, pharmacists talk a lot about how often they have to ring GPs to correct their prescriptions etc.Nurse practitioners slag off docs all the time.

But all of this is true.

When the role is reversed, we're arrogant.

It would be kind of arrogant to tell a nutritionist they don't know anything about nutrition or a physio they don't know anything about physio. No ?

opinion guy

lonestargirl wrote: »

That kind of behaviour is completely unprofessional. Maybe I have a very rosy picture of the doctor-health professional interaction as rad onc is a very small and unique profession and the them-vs-us attitude doesn't seem to exist much there.

Or maybe its just you are in the states where they understand the conectp of 'teamwork'

tallaght01

lonestargirl wrote: »

That kind of behaviour is completely unprofessional. Maybe I have a very rosy picture of the doctor-health professional interaction as rad onc is a very small and unique profession and the them-vs-us attitude doesn't seem to exist much there.

I don't want to overplay it, and I've never had an experience like that with a radiotherapist.

I mean, I'm pally with most of our allied health guys, and went for a quick drink with our pharmacists and physios today. I only mean that if the rile was reversed, it would be less acceptable....say a psychiatrist came on here and complained that a psychologist claimed to know more than he did about his area, it would be seen as arrogant.

Just like our physio in work the other day told me that physios should be doing ortho clinics, as they're better than the docs. Now I work in a big tertiary centre with really superb orthopods, and this physio is about 3 years out of college. She was amazed that I took issue with this. But if I'd suggested the orthopaedic SHO could take over the physio side of things because they'd be better, that would be arrogant.

I may not be making this point very well :P

Nonoperational

I know this is over-simplifying it but one thing I have consistantly noticed since I started working and living in the "adult" world is that in all walks of life there are genuine good people that have the correct mix of confidence, humility and respect for others and then there are complete tossers. Makes no difference if they are average joe soaps on the street or highly qualified consultants.

I completely agree that people think they can do more than they should. There was a big buzz a few years ago about pharmacist prescribing. I'm a pharmacist and I think it's a dreadful idea. We just arn't trained to diagnose. In the first 2 months of medicine I have done 10 times more diagnosis than we ever did in pharmacy. I would have no issue with a doctor saying pharmacists shouldn't prescribe. It's not arrogance at all.

The same way I would have no problem with you saying a 3 year qualified physio wouldn't be more suitable than a doctor to run an ortho clinic. That's nothing against pharmacists or physios they do very important work within their professional abilities too but there are limits. The same way there are limits for doctors.

JuliusCaesar

tallaght01 wrote: »

Welcome to the world of an NCHD, where every man and his dog in the hospital tells you you're pretty much useless.

Except if we got shirty because another healthcare worker claims more knowledge than us, we'd be branded as arrogant,

This probably makes my point better than I would!

I don't think I've ever told any Reg that they are useless; we take very different approaches, and I don't presume to tell them their job and do get a little annoyed when they think they know mine better than I do. And no, I'm not just newly qualified - I'm a couple of decades in my speciality.