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Should this Forum be elsewhere, like Science?

  • 21-10-2010 8:47pm
    #1
    munsterdevil
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 909 ✭✭✭


    Forgive my pedantry, and I'm not attacking the mods or admins over this, but shouldn't the Atheism & Agnosticism forum not be in the RELIGION & SPIRITUALITY forum?

    I mean neither atheism or agnosticism are a religion, or a spiritual way of life.

    Just saying, so don't all attack at once:eek:


Comments

  • #2
    Blackhorse Slim
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,269 ✭✭✭Blackhorse Slim


    No. The creationists would never find it. Where's the fun in that?


  • #3
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    No it should be with the other beliefs...


    ducks for cover.


  • #4
    liamw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,780 ✭✭✭liamw


    munsterdevil wrote: »
    I mean neither atheism or agnosticism are a religion, or a spiritual way of life.

    No, but they are closely related to religion considering atheism means lack of belief.


  • #5
    mikhail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,862 ✭✭✭mikhail


    No, it's a position regarding the existence of gods. Not everyone need arrive at it via empiricism.


  • #6
    rational
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 357 ✭✭rational


    Atheism is a religion. :D


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  • #7
    mikhail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,862 ✭✭✭mikhail


    rational wrote: »
    Atheism is a religion. :D
    I realise you're just taking the Mick, but if one's reasons for believing there is no God are not rational, it sort of is (though it lacks ritual, clergy and doctrine). For most of us though, that's not the case.


  • #8
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,564 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Atheism isn't a science or a faith or a movement, but it is inextricably and obviously linked with religion.

    Take a look at the posts in the forum overview... bear in mind that the Christianity forum was there long before this one... does it really look like it's in the wrong place?


  • #9
    Zillah
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    We're in the section that has to do with God, Gods, and spiritual beliefs. Considering that an atheist is someone who does not believe in God it seems reasonable for us to be in that section.

    The unfalsifiable question of God's existence is beneath the notice of the scientific method. Atheism is a (reasonable) belief, but it is not a scientific claim.


  • #10
    Galvasean
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    We like the irony of being the first section in the Religion section. :)


  • #11
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,449 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    munsterdevil wrote: »
    shouldn't the Atheism & Agnosticism forum not be in the RELIGION & SPIRITUALITY forum?
    This is the wrong forum to post messages like this.


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  • #12
    vibe666
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭vibe666


    aside from anything, we're here for support when the deluded masses finally wake up and jump ship ark, or at least start to ask questions and get a little curious about why their religions don't actually make any sense. :)


  • #13
    munsterdevil
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 909 ✭✭✭munsterdevil


    Fair enough I accept the arguments, after all it is just a forum, and it is the content that matters not where it is I suppose. By the way, I never claimed that Atheism was a science, but I was just suggesting that maybe the forum would be better suited there, but I take your points on board that it does belong here. However, I do believe that the title of the forum "Religion & Spirituality" should be changed, regardles of what was here first. But for now, I'll suck it up!

    One other thing, I have an issue with one post
    liamw wrote: »
    No, but they are closely related to religion [Atheism & Agnosticism] considering atheism means lack of belief.

    In theory this means that they have absolutely no relation at all! For instance, there would be no need to be vocal about being atheist if the world was entirely secular.


  • #14
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Why would one put Atheism & Agnosticism in science? That would be even more strange than having it in the Religion section. A subforum of philosophy could be an option, but that section is rarely visited.


  • #15
    munsterdevil
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 909 ✭✭✭munsterdevil


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Why would one put Atheism & Agnosticism in science? That would be even more strange than having it in the Religion section. A subforum of philosophy could be an option, but that section is rarely visited.
    As I stated in my last post, I do now accept that it is probably best suited in this forum.


  • #16
    ISAW
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    Zillah wrote: »
    We're in the section that has to do with God, Gods, and spiritual beliefs. Considering that an atheist is someone who does not believe in God it seems reasonable for us to be in that section.

    The unfalsifiable question of God's existence is beneath the notice of the scientific method. Atheism is a (reasonable) belief, but it is not a scientific claim.

    I think this gets near the centre of the question.

    Is atheism a religion?
    Is it a belief?
    Would it exist in the absence of religion?

    One of the problems in trying to answer is that there is no belief in atheism. Even atheists differ in what they claim with the exception that no one represents them.

    Then you have agnostics who might say in relation to the idea the Pope lied about condoms that something is either true or it isn't but in relation to existence of God that they can't be sure.


  • #17
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,190 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    ISAW wrote: »
    Is atheism a religion?
    No. Religion requires structures, organisation, doctrine. Atheism has none of these. The fact that you will find atheists who do not believe in evolutionary theory is evidence enough that there is no common set of "beliefs" or dogma linking atheists together in the same way that you link Catholics. Theism is not a religion, neither is atheism.
    Is it a belief?
    It's a lack of belief. Again, you couldn't point to any one belief (such as "I believe there is no God") and say that all atheists share it in common.
    Would it exist in the absence of religion?
    Chicken and egg scenario really. If there was no evil, would we know what good is? Atheism effectively *is* the absence of religion, the default. If there were no religions or theistic beliefs, then by definition the entire planet would be atheist. However, without religious belief having ever existed in the first place, the planet would be unaware of it.

    Look at it this way - are dogs atheist? Well of course they are, they don't believe in God. But do they know that? Of course not :)


  • #18
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,564 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    munsterdevil wrote: »
    For instance, there would be no need to be vocal about being atheist if the world was entirely secular.
    That would indeed be a brave new world!
    Jakkass wrote: »
    ...That would be even more strange than having it in the Religion section. A subforum of philosophy could be an option, but that section is rarely visited.
    I'd rather we were a subforum of After Hours before that.


  • #19
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    It should be in the sex and sexuality forum. its not fair on the rest of humanity that we're over here in the corner


  • #20
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,564 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    seamus wrote: »
    No. Religion requires structures, organisation, doctrine. Atheism has none of these. The fact that you will find atheists who do not believe in evolutionary theory is evidence enough that there is no common set of "beliefs" or dogma linking atheists together in the same way that you link Catholics. Theism is not a religion, neither is atheism.
    It's a lack of belief. Again, you couldn't point to any one belief (such as "I believe there is no God") and say that all atheists share it in common.
    Chicken and egg scenario really. If there was no evil, would we know what good is? Atheism effectively *is* the absence of religion, the default. If there were no religions or theistic beliefs, then by definition the entire planet would be atheist. However, without religious belief having ever existed in the first place, the planet would be unaware of it.

    Look at it this way - are dogs atheist? Well of course they are, they don't believe in God. But do they know that? Of course not :)
    Actually this brings up a point JimiTime made in another thread about atheists not in complete agreement as to what atheism is.

    I actually disagree with a couple of seamus' points, but like I said to Jimi - we are very united on what atheism is not.


  • #21
    ISAW
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    Dades wrote: »
    Actually this brings up a point JimiTime made in another thread about atheists not in complete agreement as to what atheism is.

    I actually disagree with a couple of seamus' points, but like I said to Jimi - we are very united on what atheism is not.

    If you lose your keys in the dark at night do you always go down the road to look under the streetlight because it is the only place there is any light? :)


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  • #22
    raah!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,629 ✭✭✭raah!


    Damn those detractors of secularism for conflating it with science!


  • #23
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,564 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    ISAW wrote: »
    If you lose your keys in the dark at night do you always go down the road to look under the streetlight because it is the only place there is any light? :)
    No, I have a torch on my phone.


  • #24
    rational
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 357 ✭✭rational


    Dades wrote: »
    No, I have a torch on my phone.

    INteresting metaphor for the athestic search for meaning.


  • #25
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,564 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    rational wrote: »
    INteresting metaphor for the athestic search for meaning.
    I'd have thought a torch more useful in the search for theistic meaning, together with a pair of rubber gloves. :)


  • #26
    The Mad Hatter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,718 ✭✭✭The Mad Hatter


    rational wrote: »
    INteresting metaphor for the athestic search for meaning.

    Better to seek in the torchlight than guess in the dark.


  • #27
    rational
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 357 ✭✭rational


    The Mad Hatter wrote: »
    Better to seek in the torchlight than guess in the dark.

    Touche;)


  • #28
    liamw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,780 ✭✭✭liamw


    munsterdevil wrote: »
    In theory this means that they have absolutely no relation at all! For instance, there would be no need to be vocal about being atheist if the world was entirely secular.

    Agreed, but the world is not entirely secular...

    They don't have a relation in the sense that atheism is a religion, but they are obviously related. As you rightly mentioned atheism as a concept wouldn't exist if there were no religion, therefore it is related.

    And that's it, I'm not going to argue for 20 pages about the definition of the word 'related'.


  • #29
    pH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,188 ✭✭✭pH


    seamus wrote: »
    Look at it this way - are dogs atheist? Well of course they are, they don't believe in God. But do they know that? Of course not :)

    If we're descending once again the this level of pedantry, then it's worth mentioning that the suffix ist applies to people only.
    Added to words to form nouns denoting:
    1. One who follows a principle or system of belief.
    Marxist, deist

    2. A member of a profession or one interested in something.
    botanist
    psychiatrist, one who studies psychiatry

    3. A person who uses something.
    violinist, one who plays a violin

    4. A person who holds biased views.
    sexist, racist
    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-ist

    So no, strictly speaking a dog is not an atheist


  • #30
    vibe666
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭vibe666


    i think we should get classed as a religion. buddhism is a religion and they don't worship any gods, so why not us? if for no other reason than for the tax breaks and other perks that the deluded masses enjoy. it worked a treat for scientologists. :)


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  • #31
    Galvasean
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    vibe666 wrote: »
    i think we should get classed as a religion. buddhism is a religion and they don't worship any gods, so why not us? if for no other reason than for the tax breaks and other perks that the deluded masses enjoy. it worked a treat for scientologists. :)

    The EU is planning on cutting those tax breaks IIRC.
    Anyway, if we did class ourselves as a religion we could no longer point out the way many theists often say, "Atheism is just another religion!" as if being a religion was a bad thing. :pac:


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