Metro North on Prime Time - 21.10.10

lods

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1020/blog-21october2010_primetime.html
Prime Time - 21st October 2010

Wednesday, 20 October 2010

Metro North is the sort of project that has always raised the hackles of some economists. To them, Metro North, looks suspiciously like a big shiny vanity project, of the type that is beloved of engineers and Government Ministers the world over, but one which a medium-sized low density city could never really justify.
But if you are stuck in a traffic jam trying to get out of any of the satellite towns of North Co. Dublin every morning, Metro North might just look like the most vital piece of infrastructure this country has ever planned. This is what we will be trying to answer on Thursday's Prime Time; does the demand for public transport in North Co. Dublin really justify a multi-billion euro Metro, or has the economic collapse rendered all the projections used to justify it meaningless? And even if it’s a great project, can we justify it while we are talking about cutting up €1 billion from the health budget?

Should be good, doesn't say who they'll interview. I live outside Dublin & have to commute by car into the city every day. Its not a fair comparrison to use Paris & London as examples in this debate, that just a complete nonsence. It doesn't make senvce to build Metro North at this time while cutting back on public transport & shelving everyother luas line.

jd

Sean Barrett and Eamonn Ryan will be on the show, I believe

lods

Why are we having the Minister for Communications & the opposition spokesman on Foreign Affairs to debate this?

jd

Sean Barrett,the TCD Transport Economist

BluntGuy

Good to see the subject being covered, pity it's that godawful Primetime that's going to be doing it.

Sponge Bob

Miriam will ask maybe 2 questions, cut across all the answers , allow Ryan to talk shyte about bicycles or something and we will know nothing afterwards. It is the worst current affairs program on the planet that is

Needless to say I won't bother watching it.

Brian CivilEng

Why is Sean Barrett still given airtime to discuss public transport, he has been proven wrong time and time again. Fair play to Miriam for calling him on it, economists don't like trains. I'm in Oslo for the weekend, a smaller city than Dublin and one which would wither without it's public transport. Ireland needs to show a bit of ambition, we don't want to get back to where we were at the beginning of the decade when the economy was growing and our public transport infrastructure should have been built years ago. Projects like Metro North should be our legacy to our grandchildren, we may still be paying it off in 30 years, but we'll still be using it in 100.

BluntGuy

I watched it. It was rubbish. Both parts.

Eamon got about 90% of the time to himself, and all I heard was spoofing. The one or two questions Miriam did bother to ask weren't even answered. I can't take him seriously ever since Vincent Browne cut him to pieces, when he was given a rigorous questioning and more importantly pressed for answers.

Overall, the usual low Primetime standards, and I can imagine anyone who was confused about the project, or was interested in knowing more, came out of that programme even more confused.

It needs to be given a good and proper debate, maybe on V.B.

Steviemak

The govt need to get across to the public that scrapping Metro North will not automatically save billions for next years budget.

Metro North will only start costing significant money on completion in 5 years. In the meantime it will bring in money to the exchequer in taxes (Income tax, PRSI, VAT etc), new jobs (therefore more spending by employees- multiplier effect), reduced unemployment payments. Then in 5 years when we start using it the commuters will pay for most of it.

Having quality metro and a city that is functioning will have untold benefits to attracting investment to the city.

We will not be in recession forever lets have ambition as a nation. The metro will be with us for hundred's of years.

BluntGuy

Steviemak wrote: »

The govt need to get across to the public that scrapping Metro North will not automatically save billions for next years budget.

Well this was an opportunity for Eamon and RPA to do that and they failed.

The one issue the programme to its credit did highlight was that no one knows what it costs. RPA's myth sheet says it'll be "less than 5 billion", Eamon Ryan is saying "2.5 - 3 billion", Michael Kennedy, FF Dublin North TD thinks 4 billion, I've heard 3.7 billion, Labour are saying "1 billion upfront", "less than 2 billion" was floating around for a while, 15 billion is the latest one.

There's a lot of confusion and simply saying "it's commerically sensitive" isn't good enough. How can people be expected to put themselves behind a project if they haven't the slightest idea what it'll cost.

lods

BluntGuy wrote: »

Well this was an opportunity for Eamon and RPA to do that and they failed.

The one issue the programme to its credit did highlight was that no one knows what it costs. RPA's myth sheet says it'll be "less than 5 billion", Eamon Ryan is saying "2.5 - 3 billion", Michael Kennedy, FF Dublin North TD thinks 4 billion, I've heard 3.7 billion, Labour are saying "1 billion upfront", "less than 2 billion" was floating around for a while, 15 billion is the latest one.

There's a lot of confusion and simply saying "it's commerically sensitive" isn't good enough. How can people be expected to put themselves behind a project if they haven't the slightest idea what it'll cost.

Labour stated the enabling works would cost 1billon and the government also had to come up with 1 billion before the project could start . So were up to 2 billion before work really starts . The guy from the RPA was very shifty about the payments . Some people still this Is free lol

Sponge Bob

lods wrote: »

Labour stated the enabling works would cost 1billon and the government also had to come up with 1 billion before the project could start . So were up to 2 billion before work really starts . The guy from the RPA was very shifty about the payments .

Well the RPA do shifty like nobody else outside of FÁS from what I see.

The enabling works will come to €100s of millions including land purchases and 'disturbance money' and fixing cracks in the walls of crackhouses in Dorset St and the like.

I still think the bill will come in around €2bn being tender and enabling works both, I am afraid that the RPA will agree to pay minimum 10% interest a year on the construction costs just to get their PPP off all the same

Propellerhead

BluntGuy wrote: »

Well this was an opportunity for Eamon and RPA to do that and they failed.

The one issue the programme to its credit did highlight was that no one knows what it costs. RPA's myth sheet says it'll be "less than 5 billion", Eamon Ryan is saying "2.5 - 3 billion", Michael Kennedy, FF Dublin North TD thinks 4 billion, I've heard 3.7 billion, Labour are saying "1 billion upfront", "less than 2 billion" was floating around for a while, 15 billion is the latest one.

There's a lot of confusion and simply saying "it's commerically sensitive" isn't good enough. How can people be expected to put themselves behind a project if they haven't the slightest idea what it'll cost.

15 billion is patently bollocks.

What leprechaun hat was that pulled out of?

DWCommuter

The Government knows there are up front costs with MN. I know there are up front costs with it. Its as clear as daylight that they are nervous about these costs and then the obligation to the PPP deal.

If we couldn't build it during the boom years, we won't be building it now.
Irish politicians dont do public transport. FACT! They are a wretched bunch of mainly rural people (from a by road to the Dail) with absolutely no concept of urban requirements. ANOTHER FACT!

Right now this country is facing its most financially challenging time ever. MN (and DART Underground) are being milked to death by a Government desperate to look like it was serious about them in the first place. They weren't. If they were, then these projects would already be at construction phase. They aren't. The chance has been blown. The current Government are merely dragging it out in the hope that an opposition Government will pull the plug, which they will. Politics, politics and yet more politics. Politically, I reckon it will take this country another 50 odd years to mature up to a level whereby public transport is treated on a par with (more obviously) developed countries.

We got motorways because politicians understood the ****ty drive up to Dublin from the country. We got very little urban public transport, because they have damn all experience of it.

BluntGuy

Propellerhead wrote: »

15 billion is patently bollocks.

What leprechaun hat was that pulled out of?

I'm not sure. There's a lot of leprechaun hats around.

As we await the RPA's application for a Railway Order for Metro West; the hat from which it was pulled that Metro West Phase 1 was opening this year 2010 is the one that's currently freshest in my mind.

DWCommuter

BluntGuy wrote: »

I'm not sure. There's a lot of leprechaun hats around.

As we await the RPA's application for a Railway Order for Metro West; the hat from which it was pulled that Metro West Phase 1 was opening this year 2010 is the one that's currently freshest in my mind.

Sweet!

And who can blame you for picking that hat. Its a good hat.

dynamick

Prime Time debate Barrett vs Ryan
http://www.rte.ie/news/av/2010/1021/primetime.html#

I like the end with Miriam trying to shut them up.

Barrett of course says we should use buses instead of metro/Luas/DART. This is what he has been saying for the past 35 years.

He hasn't seen the business case so he is just as much in the dark as everyone outside the RPA and the cabinet.

BluntGuy

dynamick wrote: »

I like the end with Miriam trying to shut them up.

lol, with the tension at the end you'd almost think some sort of debate had taken place.

lods

dynamick wrote: »

He hasn't seen the business case so he is just as much in the dark as everyone outside the RPA and the cabinet.

Yes your right, the cabinet are so in tune with what is needed:D

While i wouldn't agree with the buses only argument, there is a case to look at luas or other rail possibilities.

Jayuu

I didn't see the debate but I do feel compelled to point out that no matter what public transport solution is proposed for Dublin there will always be those who say its wrong or it won't work or we should look at other options.

The problem with this is that we talk and talk and talk and never get anything done. It also allows for all sorts of vested interests to get their spoke in and bring pressure on the government of the day to change things to suit them. Luas was a perfect example of that. It got altered and bent out of shape to suit all sorts of vested interests. The result is that we got a system that didn't connect and didn't end up building one of its initially proposed lines.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be any public discussion but it seems to be that people are never going to agree on the merits or demerits of Metro North. Lets just get on and build the damn thing. Once its there and running people will use it and we'll end up wondering how we ever coped without it.

bealtine

BluntGuy wrote: »

Well this was an opportunity for Eamon and RPA to do that and they failed.

Eamon is fail....

He's always on waffling about things that have nothing to do with his portfolio while completely ignoring those things he's charged with.

Tosser

strassenwo!f

Was this a first?

On all of the previous occasions that I've heard/seen quotes from Eamon Ryan about the metro north project, he has been calling for it to be extended south along the existing LUAS green line.

And tonight he didn't!

(In my opinion, such an arrangement would be a disaster for Dublin, and I've never quite figured out why he would prefer that over a more south-westerly alignment. Some people have said to me that it's because the LUAS green line runs through his constituency, but I frankly don't believe that he would take such a parochial view).

But at least he didn't mention it. So, there's progress, at least.

dowlingm

strassenwo!f wrote: »

On all of the previous occasions that I've heard/seen quotes from Eamon Ryan about the metro north project, he has been calling for it to be extended south along the existing LUAS green line.

And tonight he didn't!

Someone introduced him to a streetgrid/vertical elevation plan of Green Line's approach to Harcourt Street? (the billion dollar how do you get from -1 sublevel to an elevated track without closing a street question)

dynamick

The railway order for B1 specifies that the line be upgradable to Metro. The plan for BXD however, calls for Line B to join to a cross city Luas running to Finglas. Obviously this means that B will never be upgraded to Metro and a future Metro line would probably go Harolds X, Rathgar, Terenure, Templeogue, Tallaght. I think everyone would agree that this is a better solution.

oharach

dynamick wrote: »

The railway order for B1 specifies that the line be upgradable to Metro. The plan for BXD however, calls for Line B to join to a cross city Luas running to Finglas. Obviously this means that B will never be upgraded to Metro and a future Metro line would probably go Harolds X, Rathgar, Terenure, Templeogue, Tallaght. I think everyone would agree that this is a better solution.

It's probably the better solution now, given that the Green line was built without provision for conversion. However, it wasn't the best solution from the start

If we ever have enough money for a Metro South, then a line to Tallaght as an extension of Metro North will be fine, but if we never get there, we're going to look very foolish for underusing the Harcourt street alignment for a low-capacity tram line.

Any word on how the Bride's Glen extension and extra trams are affecting overcrowding in the morning peak?