Atheists at a funeral

WxfrdJay

I was on a round-world-trip with a best mate for a year, over the course we had many a discussion re my beliefs (or lack of) and the usual arguments etc. 6 weeks ago his Dad died. I've always felt awkward at funerals, with everyone around me thinking that their loved one is in paradise and me there thinking that it's not true: We were in a pub after the month's mind and my mate makes a toast and says "he's probably looking down at us all right now and laughing". I smiled, then he says "well maybe you've a different view, but to each their own eh?"

I didn't think it should matter right there then what I thought. But I did feel a sense of animosity about the whole thing. So I wrote him this in a card and posted it to him (he lives in the Carribean). Let me know what you guys think:

A Heathen’s Mourn

By Jason J. Finn

Look not of I- a rogue of heathen tact.
In death the loss is pure unchanging fact,
For both the free of mind and chained vantage,
Guilt and wilt the face of grief; Grim’s endless age.

To I or you, both we who weep; they’re gone.
Though not in mind, in thoughts, they do live on.
For death brings not the end of life this kind,
But more: a life to live in living mind.

Zillah

Pretty tasteless passive aggressive behaviour to make a confrontation about it while making a toast.

Dades

Would have left whatever happened in the pub, myself.

But then again I have an irrational hatred of poetry.

Zombrex

WxfrdJay wrote: »

But I did feel a sense of animosity about the whole thing.

Er, why?

I have an imagine of your friend giving a toast about his dead dad and you, a few rows back in the crowded pub shouting out "STOP OPPRESSING ME!!" and storming off.

This seems to have little to do with with you, why is it pissing you off?

ballsymchugh

why did you even go to the months mind?

edit: completely misread.

Would have left it alone with the poem though tbh.
Nice as it is.

WxfrdJay

For fuxake lads, I came on to see what you thought of the poem, is it too far over ye're heads?

Did I not make myself clear? I didn't say anything in the pub. In fact I hardly said much at all to him beyond the usual consoling "sorry for your losses" that you say at funerals for the whole period.

I've no bad feelings towards him, I just felt like offering him something to say that what I believe in is not all that dark. Maybe I'm posting in the wrong forum.

ColmDawson

bluewolf wrote: »

Talk about a time and place :eek:
Bad enough what you said in the pub but to follow up with that?

Worse than picketing funerals

Wait, was it not his friend that spoke in the pub?

ColmDawson

ColmDawson wrote: »

Wait, was it not his friend that spoke in the pub?

edited!

ColmDawson

bluewolf wrote: »

edited!

Your mistake will live forever in my quote. :pac:

Gregor Samsa

Wicknight wrote: »

Er, why?

I have an imagine of your friend giving a toast about his dead dad and you, a few rows back in the crowded pub shouting out "STOP OPPRESSING ME!!" and storming off.

This seems to have little to do with with you, why is it pissing you off?

I think you missed the point.

OP didn't say anything in the pub. The mate made the comment just because he knew the OP was an atheist. The animosity that the OP was sensing was coming from his mate.

Dades

WxfrdJay wrote: »

Did I not make myself clear? I didn't say anything in the pub. In fact I hardly said much at all to him beyond the usual consoling "sorry for your losses" that you say at funerals for the whole period.

Hey I wasn't judging you buddy. I get you didn't do anything yourself in the pub. Like I said, I just hate poetry.

Tim Robbins

OP, How do the decisions you made benefit you or your mate?

Liberalbrehon

Nice poem, it conveys your sympathy for his loss in your terms. He may not understand it though. People that believe in " God " generally aren't good at understanding the rational and logical basis for human existence. yeap it will probably go over his head or he will see it as an insult. Best leave it be. You're threading on emotions that can't see the decent sentiment you're trying to convey.
Try secular humanist as a moniker rather than atheist. Atheism is being against theism which is kind of like saying being Asantaclaus or atoothfairy. Atheism is the religious moniker for not believing in their God. The Pope or an Islamic cleric would drink wine and joke with a pedophile quicker than an atheist if they had the choice. the pedophile can be forgiven you see, an atheist can't.

As a humanist going to funerals, its probably the most difficult thing to do but you have to pay respects someway. Just being quiet is probably the best option.

Dades

Tim Robbins wrote: »

OP, How do the decisions you made benefit you or your mate?

Decisions? I think the only decision was to send his mate a poem.

bad2dabone

Liberalbrehon wrote: »

Just being quiet is probably the best option.

Amen brother.



...Whoops!

WxfrdJay

Tim Robbins wrote: »

OP, How do the decisions you made benefit you or your mate?

I suppose it was an attempt at bringing him around to seeing that my point of view is not as bleak and dark as what he might think because I don't believe in supernatural. That there's no need for him to feel animosity towards me. The poem is trying to say that my way of thinking allows for 'immortality' too, however it is living on in the minds of loved ones left behind, and that can be a beautiful and comforting thought too.

I wasn't trying to force anything on him or make this personal at all. If I was a christian I'd be saying shyte like "he's at peace in the arms of God now", or conversely if I was a Buddhist I'd be saying how his good life will ensure he is rewarded in the next. I'm an atheist, and that poem is my offering of consolation. That's all.

WxfrdJay

Liberalbrehon wrote: »

Try secular humanist as a moniker rather than atheist. Atheism is being against theism which is kind of like saying being Asantaclaus or atoothfairy. Atheism is the religious moniker for not believing in their God. The Pope or an Islamic cleric would drink wine and joke with a pedophile quicker than an atheist if they had the choice. the pedophile can be forgiven you see, an atheist can't.

I detest the label atheist too as it happens, I was just using it for descriptive / clarity.

Tim Robbins

WxfrdJay wrote: »

I suppose it was an attempt at bringing him around to seeing that my point of view is not as bleak and dark as what he might think because I don't believe in supernatural. That there's no need for him to feel animosity towards me. The poem is trying to say that my way of thinking allows for 'immortality' too, however it is living on in the minds of loved ones left behind, and that can be a beautiful and comforting thought too.

I wasn't trying to force anything on him or make this personal at all. If I was a christian I'd be saying shyte like "he's at peace in the arms of God now", or conversely if I was a Buddhist I'd be saying how his good life will ensure he is rewarded in the next. I'm an atheist, and that poem is my offering of consolation. That's all.

I'd admire your principles but I am wondering would it just have been easier to let him have his ignorance is bliss cake and you have your knowledge is power 5 course meal and just pay for yourselves rather than mix up the bill?

How cringy is that?

liamw

WxfrdJay wrote: »

I detest the label atheist too as it happens, I was just using it for descriptive / clarity.

I don't detest the label; I detest the popular misconceptions about what it means to be atheist. Unfortunately, because of that, I often find myself just saying I'm non-religious to avoid the hassle (even though it's the same thing).

RE: your mate, tell him to watch Carl Sagan's Cosmos. Simple.

JimiTime

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I'd admire your principles but I am wondering would it just have been easier to let him have his ignorance is bliss cake and you have your knowledge is power 5 course meal and just pay for yourselves rather than mix up the bill?

How cringy is that?

Knowledge is power? 'Knowledge' of what exactly, in this context?

Tim Robbins

JimiTime wrote: »

Knowledge is power? 'Knowledge' of what exactly, in this context?

We considere ourselves to be more enlightened. Well I do anyway.

JimiTime

liamw wrote: »

I don't detest the label; I detest the popular misconceptions about what it means to be atheist. Unfortunately, because of that, I often find myself just saying I'm non-religious to avoid the hassle (even though it's the same thing).

RE: your mate, tell him to watch Carl Sagan's Cosmos. Simple.

As there is no official Atheist group or whatever, and individual atheists can differ wildly in their views of what atheism is, i find the idea of detesting 'misconceptions' ridiculous.

JimiTime

Tim Robbins wrote: »

We considere ourselves to be more enlightened. Well I do anyway.

I'm not disputing the personal view people have of themselves and their intellectual standing, I'm asking if your believing there is no God contitutes as knowledge? Also, 'We'? Who is 'We'?

rugbyman

Liberal brehon,

"the pedophile can be forgiven you see, an atheist can't. "

I like this.

Regards, rugbyman

JimiTime

rugbyman wrote: »

"the pedophile can be forgiven you see, an atheist can't. "

Both can be forgiven actually.

Sam Vimes

JimiTime wrote: »

As there is no official Atheist group or whatever, and individual atheists can differ wildly in their views of what atheism is, i find the idea of detesting 'misconceptions' ridiculous.

I think there's a misunderstanding here. Individual atheists can differ wildly in views in general beyond atheism but I think you'd be hard pushed to find many atheists who disagree with the definition "lack of belief in gods". where the problem mostly comes in is what people who aren't atheists think atheism is (or desperately want to think it is). Christians can also differ wildly in their views of what it means to be a christian but if I said that being a christian means worshipping Satan I think you'd agree that would be a misconception

Dades

JimiTime wrote: »

As there is no official Atheist group or whatever, and individual atheists can differ wildly in their views of what atheism is...

Ah yes, but we almost always agree on what is isn't.

Tim Robbins

JimiTime wrote: »

I'm not disputing the personal view people have of themselves and their intellectual standing, I'm asking if your believing there is no God contitutes as knowledge? Also, 'We'? Who is 'We'?

Forgive my smart ass answer jimi but surely you have the "knowledge" that atheism is disbelief in the various gods, not belief there is no God.

I was referring to atheists who have a better knowledge of logic, science etc and can hence see the holes in religion.

Dades

WxfrdJay, this thread is about to explode off topic - are you cool with that or do we need to put a stopper on it?

JimiTime

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I was referring to atheists who have a better knowledge of logic, science etc and can hence see the holes in religion.

So the knowledge you refer to is nothing to do with atheism? You associate atheists with knowledge of logic, science etc, and Christians/theists etc as ignorant?

This context would seem a bit odd, when you you spoke in the context of death, as this is a thread about a funeral. The context you used 'Knowledge' in, was in relation to the atheistic view of when your dead you're dead. Would you describe this as knowledge?

ballsymchugh

unfollow!! unfollow!!

Tim Robbins

JimiTime wrote: »

So the knowledge you refer to is nothing to do with atheism? You associate atheists with knowledge of logic, science etc, and Christians/theists etc as ignorant?

This context would seem a bit odd, when you you spoke in the context of death, as this is a thread about a funeral. The context you used 'Knowledge' in, was in relation to the atheistic view of when your dead you're dead. Would you describe this as knowledge?

Take it to another thread my friend. Unless the OP wishes our farce to continue...

JimiTime

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Take it to another thread my friend. Unless the OP wishes our farce to continue...

Its ok, just calling you out on it. Not bothered enough to go starting threads about it.

Goduznt Xzst

Dades wrote: »

But then again I have an irrational hatred of poetry.

You are crazy Dades
Poems are how White Man raps
Catholicism

WxfrdJay

Dades wrote: »

WxfrdJay, this thread is about to explode off topic - are you cool with that or do we need to put a stopper on it?

Umm I'm thinking along the lines of "If you can't beat 'em join 'em"!!

Work away lads, healthy discussion is always welcome.

Zillah

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

You are crazy Dades
Poems are how White Man raps
Catholicism

This is only a haiku if you mispronounce his name as "daids" instead of "dah-days". Also, one must use the rather upper-class English pronunciation of "poe-ehm" rather than the more common "'pome".

I do have two questions however:
1 - Dades, am I right about the name pronunciation? I don't think it has been mentioned since you first swapped over.
2 - Goduznt Xst, are you in fact from an English family with old money?

Standman

WxfrdJay wrote: »

...Maybe I'm posting in the wrong forum.

I think we already have that covered in another thread.

Tim Robbins

JimiTime wrote: »

Its ok, just calling you out on it. Not bothered enough to go starting threads about it.

No worries, thanks for the call. I was beginning to think you were ignoring me.

Dades

Zillah wrote: »

1 - Dades, am I right about the name pronunciation? I don't think it has been mentioned since you first swapped over

Actually... no! It is Dades as in McDaids. Don't blame me - it been that way for about 25 years. :pac:

fisgon

To kind of get back on topic....when believers say 'sure he's looking down on us all and smiling', or other such nonsense, I'm under the impression that they don't really believe this themselves, or at least some of them. They're simply repeating the trite, meaningless reaction that you are supposed to say in these situations, that they themselves have heard hundreds of times. It's a cliche, or a reflex, an empty line to make everyone feel better. Whenever I hear something like this, or see a footballer signalling to the sky after scoring a goal, after someone close to them has died, I just think.....Really? Can't you at least be original?

It comes down to the basic fact. Most people believe, not what's true, but what they want to believe.

Zillah

Dades wrote: »

Actually... no! It is Dades as in McDaids. Don't blame me - it been that way for about 25 years. :pac:

No no no this won't do at all, this won't do even a little bit. You're dah-days in my head and that is not changing.

My beliefs make me happy and that is all that matters.

Goduznt Xzst

Zillah wrote: »

Also, one must use the rather upper-class English pronunciation of "poe-ehm" rather than the more common "'pome".

How odd... I have always pronounced it Poe-ehms (perhaps more PO-ims). I did a syllable check just there and it also says that the word has two syllables.

Dades

Zillah wrote: »

My beliefs make me happy and that is all that matters.

Well I respect your right to hold that belief, while not respecting the actual belief.

ShooterSF

I can see you put some effort into that poem OP but I think it might be best to leave it, at least for now. Your friend is probably in a bad way and I'm sure they've long forgotten or even regret what they said to you. They were probably just in an emotional position that most of us feel very uncomfortable in (public mourning) and were trying to deflect any self-perceived vulnerabilities.

Just carry on being a good friend. They'll appreciate that more now. Maybe in time if you show them the poem they'll see it for what it is meant to be (or call you gay (kidding!) )

Nevyn

I know plenty of Heathens who believe in an afterlife and several place where they may end up, heathen does not equal no religion.

Dades

The word 'heathen' is frequently abused by people (myself included) who like to use it as a comic reference to their non-belief.

Apologies to actual heathens, but there you go!