expected rate of reduction in jsa/jsb

ronano

I hear boards.ie's view on how much it should be cut by but haven't come across any green or ff ministers mentioning by how much,has anyone let the cat out of the bag about it?

Nijmegen

I have a cunning idea: Instead of cutting it along black and white lines that say a 20 year old with 360 days on the clock needs €50 less to live than somebody a week older, why don't we properly means test?

Too many of the €196'ers are living at home with both parents working and lapping it up. And we have people who went into the workforce at 17 after their leaving who are out on their own on €150 a week.

We need to reduce the headline amounts on welfare, that much is for sure.

But gaining savings in such a backwards and, frankly, stupid fashion is not at all in the spirit of what social welfare and the state safety net is designed for.

All benefits - and tax - should be means tested on sliding scales in a logical fashion.

Amhran Nua

JSA is already means tested.

Nijmegen

Amhran Nua wrote: »

JSA is already means tested.

In a rather black and white fashion. And once you cross the line of your first year or nine months out of work you're back into black and white territory.

Can you justify the idea that we give people €50 and €46 more or less based on the sole single factor of their age?

CamperMan

it should be cut to the same levels as the UK welfare system

Nijmegen

CamperMan wrote: »

it should be cut to the same levels as the UK welfare system

And will we open state bread shops so they can afford to eat?

Costs in Ireland are a tiny bit higher.

Max Power1

Nijmegen wrote: »

And will we open state bread shops so they can afford to eat?

Costs in Ireland are a tiny bit higher.

These higher costs are propped up artificially in part by a higher than necessary JA payment.

IMO we should cut JB by 5% and JA by 10%. The JA cuts should be pro rata per year, so if you are on JA for 2 years its a 20% cut and so on.

Mr Benevolent

CamperMan wrote: »

it should be cut to the same levels as the UK welfare system

A ridiculous suggestion. The cost of living is significantly higher here. I agree with reducing JA by a % amount each 6-12 months though. Something that hasn't been mentioned that Medical Card holders (of which I am one) retain their card for 3 years after getting a job. That's ridiculous, a month would be much more sensible.

Comprehensive means testing is one of the better solutions though. I'll take myself as an example. My dad is retired and on 27k. My mum is on Disability Allowance for arthritis - 9k. My brother is on the BTW scheme as an entrepreneur. That all means that I'm entitled to the max JA of 196pw. That's a lot for me though. I can easily afford to save 100 a week and still have enough money to go out for lunch almost every day, a few drinks at the weekend and treats etc. I don't smoke and don't really drink very much. I can personally afford to have my JA dropped by 25% or more, but the DSFA sees my family income and automagically gives me the full JA.

cavedave

You get into the problem that if you ask the state how much it costs to live they will low ball it and if you ask charities they will put it quite high. One fairly independant test is to see what the SUI and other advise students on living costs.

Monthly Cost of Living Away from Home 2006/2007 €
Rent for shared house or flat (average) 350
Light/heat/power 60
Food 220
Travel (monthly bus/rail commuter ticket) 74
Books and other academic requisites 55
Clothes, laundry, medical etc 55
Social life, other travel, miscellaneous 120
Total 934

take away the books leaves about 900 a month.
You get into messing with rent as I think some has to come out of your earnings. But say with rent allowance that is 200-300 less.
That leaves you with 600-700 a month if you are willing to let people live like students and prices have not changed up in 4 years.

Nijmegen

Max Power1 wrote: »

These higher costs are propped up artificially in part by a higher than necessary JA payment.

IMO we should cut JB by 5% and JA by 10%. The JA cuts should be pro rata per year, so if you are on JA for 2 years its a 20% cut and so on.

In terms of accuracy in social welfare policy, the Irish are more like the early airmen of World War 1, dropping grenades out the side of their wooden airplanes, than the more laser-precision-bombing of the 21st Century.

"Let's cut it by... Umm... 20%! For everyone! Regardless of anything!"

For some people, that will mean they don't go out 2 nights a week, just the one, from their mammy's house.

For others, it will mean they can't feed their kids properly, those kids will fall behind in school and their lives will not be what they should be.

The idea of the social welfare safety net is to give people what they need.

Target. The. Welfare. You'd save money on the people for whom the dole is a comfortable slush fund, and save people for whom the dole is a desperately needed life preserver.

CamperMan

Nijmegen wrote: »

And will we open state bread shops so they can afford to eat?

Costs in Ireland are a tiny bit higher.

OK, then pay a tiny bit more, but 2.5 times more

if the minimum wage is brought into line with the UK, then food prices will come down..

anyway, welfare claimants here in Ireland seem to live the life of luxury, sky TV, fags, booze, holidays....

Nijmegen

CamperMan wrote: »

if the minimum wage is brought into line with the UK, then food prices will come down.. anyway, welfare claimants here in Ireland seem to live the life of luxury, sky TV, fags, booze, holidays....

I agree with the notion that it needs to come down. But saying "Drop it to UK levels!" is another blanket, untargeted effort that will leave people starving.

The costs will come down over time. But people don't eat over time.

kn

5% across the board reduction was mentioned in the Sunday papers. That would be a circa €10/week cut in the basic €196 payment.

sierra117x

heres a big problem we're having in the system . today in my office on the navan road we had 4 latvian chaps come in to make a claim for themselves and 3 relatives the support . 7 people in total who "worked" in scotland for 3 years and decided to leave their "job" to work in ireland . fair enough .

did they arrange employment before coming ? no
have they made attempts to get a job ? no
what was the first thing they did ? come looking for money

they approached there local community welfare officer and him fully understanding the situation and the regulations sent them here to the office to make a claim . they idea behind this is even though they will be refused he can pay them while they wait for refusal. when the refusal comes through ( 2 or 3 months later) they can make an appeal on this and get to wait another 3 or 4 months while they get paid by the community welfare officer. this is where your taxes are going ladies and gentlemen

pocketvenus

See this is the problem we have for years we have let a welfare system get out of hand in regards to people making it their life income and fraud and handing it out to nearly everyone who arrive in this country.

However people made redundant in past 2 years who have paid taxes etc since they started working are being lumped into the category of being scroungers and not wanting to work etc and I find that highly insulting. The majority of people who lost their jobs are trying to find employment and want to work - why do you think companys are getting thousands of CV's for 10-40 jobs and from all professions. Just for the laugh no these people want to work.

My boyfriend lost his job 18 months ago and is trying to live on €196 a week and it is not easy. His JB ended after the year and he was means tested for JB which he got. So on this he is trying to pay off his car loan, car insurance each month, feed himself and also help his mother out who is a widow - and as she is a widow in her 50's she is entitled to nothing only her widow's pension which is €200 and that is it - nothing else. They both have same heat bill's, tv license to pay etc. He had to go to dentist a week ago and had to get a filling and other work - € 200 which he had to pay for himself so basically a weeks JB went on one visit to dentist.

We both were talking and said know a cut is coming but he did calculations and said the most he can afford to take is €6 bringing it down to €190.

Before people ask no he is no out every weekend drinking etc. Mainly now we just stay in and watch DVD's or that as can no longer afford it.

Count Dooku

sierra117x wrote: »

heres a big problem we're having in the system . today in my office on the navan road we had 4 latvian chaps come in to make a claim for themselves and 3 relatives the support . 7 people in total who "worked" in scotland for 3 years and decided to leave their "job" to work in ireland . fair enough .

did they arrange employment before coming ? no
have they made attempts to get a job ? no
what was the first thing they did ? come looking for money

they approached there local community welfare officer and him fully understanding the situation and the regulations sent them here to the office to make a claim . they idea behind this is even though they will be refused he can pay them while they wait for refusal. when the refusal comes through ( 2 or 3 months later) they can make an appeal on this and get to wait another 3 or 4 months while they get paid by the community welfare officer. this is where your taxes are going ladies and gentlemen

typical example of public service performance
instead of massive transfer of unused staff from quango's, government should take in account that Silvio Dante will not travel extra mile per day

maninasia

Nijmegen wrote: »

I agree with the notion that it needs to come down. But saying "Drop it to UK levels!" is another blanket, untargeted effort that will leave people starving.

The costs will come down over time. But people don't eat over time.

Starving, that's a joke. They'd have enough to get groceries and some left over for odds and ends, not for drinks or smokes though. Is that other people's problem?

Nijmegen

maninasia wrote: »

Starving, that's a joke. They'd have enough to get groceries and some left over for odds and ends, not for drinks or smokes though. Is that other people's problem?

My problem is that we make welfare changes in Ireland based on black and white numbers, not individual circumstances.

Food and utilities for a week, plus the monthly/quarterly need for clothes, and the odd crises that occurs in all our lives from time to time, on UK welfare rates?

Costs haven't come down that much, or else we'd not be driving up to Newry for Christmas.

pocketvenus

maninasia wrote: »

Starving, that's a joke. They'd have enough to get groceries and some left over for odds and ends, not for drinks or smokes though. Is that other people's problem?

So what about electricity, heat, tv, maybe other expenses such as mortgage reypaments etc I suppose you think these all disappear when you are made redundant. The avergae perosn who has been made redundant in past 2 years are not scrounging off the SW or getting alot of extra benefits. Already alot of them are making scarfices are they supposed to freeze and burn candles to get by.

Again it is typical of people to paint everyone on the SW with the one brush and think they are getting rich off it. Living on an avergae of €10,000 a year with same mortgage outgoings, heat light etc is not exactly the high life.

So if you were reduced to this would you like it with people saying ah sure €50 a week is enough for him not my problem if he facing poverty.

pindababe

Its no good moaning about people having too much welfare benefits, the government cant say this is how much you will need to survive per week in this country and then suddenly say,'oh by the way its not we were just joking' At the end of the day if they take the money away from the people, wether thay are employed or unemployed, there will be no money to spend and all the shops, bars, retaurants etc will go out of business, that is clearly evident by the closures on all the high streets in every town, it sounds crazy but people need to have money to spend money or the economy collapses end of!!!

pindababe

stupid have you ever tried living on dole in uk £51 per week and you still have to pay council tax, water rates, elec, gas, tv etc

kaiser sauze

Max Power1 wrote: »

These higher costs are propped up artificially in part by a higher than necessary JA payment.

IMO we should cut JB by 5% and JA by 10%. The JA cuts should be pro rata per year, so if you are on JA for 2 years its a 20% cut and so on.

What complete and utter nonsense.

Are people on welfare the only people who spend money? :rolleyes:

CamperMan wrote: »

OK, then pay a tiny bit more, but 2.5 times more

if the minimum wage is brought into line with the UK, then food prices will come down..

anyway, welfare claimants here in Ireland seem to live the life of luxury, sky TV, fags, booze, holidays....

Food prices will not plummet overnight, so please have a think before you post the next time.

kaiser sauze

pocketvenus wrote: »

So what about electricity, heat, tv, maybe other expenses such as mortgage reypaments etc I suppose you think these all disappear when you are made redundant. The avergae perosn who has been made redundant in past 2 years are not scrounging off the SW or getting alot of extra benefits. Already alot of them are making scarfices are they supposed to freeze and burn candles to get by.

Again it is typical of people to paint everyone on the SW with the one brush and think they are getting rich off it. Living on an avergae of €10,000 a year with same mortgage outgoings, heat light etc is not exactly the high life.

So if you were reduced to this would you like it with people saying ah sure €50 a week is enough for him not my problem if he facing poverty.

I really wonder if many of the people who are in favour of 50+% cuts in rates are actually all still living at home with their parents, didn't qualify for JSA, and are pure unmitigated begrudgers?

I never would have thought we were a nation of them....oh, wait!