Boycott the Banks

Golf Pro

I'd like to start a campaign to ask golfers to boycott the golf courses that are being run by a receiver appointed by the banks. Anyone interested???

Good, well established and well run member's clubs are on the edge of going bust because the receivers are competing with them and giving away green fees and memberships just to be able to sell the place as a going concern and get as much as possible for the bank!!

These include Maccreddin, Tulfarris, Citywest, Palmerstown House, Knockanally, The Heritage, Blarney, Kilkee Castle and possibly more

jimjo

Golf Pro wrote: »

I'd like to start a campaign to ask golfers to boycott the golf courses that are being run by a receiver appointed by the banks. Anyone interested???

Good, well established and well run member's clubs are on the edge of going bust because the receivers are competing with them and giving away green fees and memberships just to be able to sell the place as a going concern and get as much as possible for the bank!!

These include Maccreddin, Tulfarris, Citywest, Palmerstown House, Knockanally, The Heritage, Blarney, Kilkee Castle and possibly more

By god you need to get a life mate....

So are these clubs affecting membership and green fees in Dunmurry Springs??

I would hate to see any of the above clubs go to the wall, Palmerstown House is a cracking course, and I've only heard good reports about Maccreddin and Tulfarris...

Unglika Norse

Golf Pro wrote: »

I'd like to start a campaign to ask golfers to boycott the golf courses that are being run by a receiver appointed by the banks. Anyone interested???

Good, well established and well run member's clubs are on the edge of going bust because the receivers are competing with them and giving away green fees and memberships just to be able to sell the place as a going concern and get as much as possible for the bank!!

These include Maccreddin, Tulfarris, Citywest, Palmerstown House, Knockanally, The Heritage, Blarney, Kilkee Castle and possibly more

Any club that cannot pay it's creditors should should like any other business be closed down or at the very least disaffiliated from the Union untill such time as it's creditors have been paid, no matter how good or what the reports are like on the course.

Sammo13

Can't agree, I'm member of Druids Heath, happy to pay €1500 annual membership and not entrance fee to a established club.

These established clubs were happy to charge €15k to join 5 yrs ago (avg courses Bray, Greystones, Glen of the Downs etc), but now will take annual fees as members look hard at their outgoings.

Ex - Charlesland (OK TRACK), 15/17k 5 yrs ago, are losing 40 members a year, join now for 3k including first years sub.

So if a fella wants to pay 1k to Tulfarris - fair play - good track and also if it goes bust... Nothing major lost..

Unglika Norse

Sammo13 wrote: »

Can't agree, I'm member of Druids Heath, happy to pay €1500 annual membership and not entrance fee to a established club.

These established clubs were happy to charge €15k to join 5 yrs ago (avg courses Bray, Greystones, Glen of the Downs etc), but now will take annual fees as members look hard at their outgoings.

Ex - Charlesland (OK TRACK), 15/17k 5 yrs ago, are losing 40 members a year, join now for 3k including first years sub.

So if a fella wants to pay 1k to Tulfarris - fair play - good track and also if it goes bust... Nothing major lost..

It's a major loss if you happen to be a creditor of these clubs to be told that you won't be getting paid, whilst watching the same people that have put you in the position, running these clubs and being paid to do so, I dont' have a position on what clubs may be losing or not, but if a club is in a position of not being able to pay it's creditors as I say at the very least it should not be affiliated to the union and hopefully some of the supplier creditors other than the banks will move to regulate the situation

Sammo13

I agree it's a blow to creditors - but the false economy in this country was based on credit, credit and more credit.

Think of all the loans people took out to pay golf entrance fees and now can't repay the banks, the same as the creditors.

Figo69

Unglika Norse wrote: »

Any club that cannot pay it's creditors should should like any other business be closed down or at the very least disaffiliated from the Union untill such time as it's creditors have been paid, no matter how good or what the reports are like on the course.

Down with this sort of crap!!!

Unglika Norse

Sammo13 wrote: »

I agree it's a blow to creditors - but the false economy in this country was based on credit, credit and more credit.

Think of all the loans people took out to pay golf entrance fees and now can't repay the banks, the same as the creditors.

People who took out loans to buy overpriced memberships are most certainly not the same as creditors who provided services to these bankrupt golf clubs who now trade in below cost selling, which was the original point being made.

In the meantime other suppliers, at least in the short term on a COD basis continue to supply these bank run clubs, virtually every business in this country or any other is run on a credit basis but almost all of these clubs have stung a huge amount of suppliers and you think that they should be allowed to continue to run as a business,

Actually come to think about it, may be you have a point in people who joined golf clubs with high entrance fees and are now in receivership as they obviously didnt' get what they were promised and should be deemed as creditors as well and receive some compensation although there is probably only two chances of that

Unglika Norse

Figo69 wrote: »

Down with this sort of crap!!!

whats crap about a factual statement, the only crap is your typical turn a blind eye reply

heavyballs

Unglika Norse wrote: »

People who took out loans to buy overpriced memberships are most certainly not the same as creditors who provided services to these bankrupt golf clubs who now trade in below cost selling, which was the original point being made.

In the meantime other suppliers, at least in the short term on a COD basis continue to supply these bank run clubs, virtually every business in this country or any other is run on a credit basis but almost all of these clubs have stung a huge amount of suppliers and you think that they should be allowed to continue to run as a business,

yes it seems he does and so do i,you really get on your high horse when this subject comes up,my guess is you're one of those who paid a high joining fee and got stung
if we take your logic on this matter and use it for all business's across the country we would be in a worse state,
also you havn't mentioned anything about the huge amount of private golf courses who have had to reduce their once ridiculous green fee prices as a result of a bit of competition from the bank owned courses,one that springs to mind is The Old Head,went over the grand for a fourball at one stage,i played there last month for €80,imagine the prices the private owned courses would command if all the courses you mentioned and many more were to close down

Sammo13

Golf clubs are in tormoil across the land, but also Hotels, Bars and other entertainment establishments which have left creditors high and dry.

These golf clubs mentioned are now offering deals to people what should have been the norm, is this a bad thing?

Or should we just put a fence around them cause they are now been taken over by NAMA.

Unglika Norse

heavyballs wrote: »

yes it seems he does and so do i,you really get on your high horse when this subject comes up,my guess is you're one of those who paid a high joining fee and got stung
if we take your logic on this matter and use it for all business's across the country we would be in a worse state,
also you havn't mentioned anything about the huge amount of private golf courses who have had to reduce their once ridiculous green fee prices as a result of a bit of competition from the bank owned courses,one that springs to mind is The Old Head,went over the grand for a fourball at one stage,i played there last month for €80,imagine the prices the private owned courses would command if all the courses you mentioned and many more were to close down

Nope, I didn't get stung by paying a high price to join a golf club, this logic is being applied to almost all businesses across the country except for golf clubs who continue to get the support of the banks that own them , if this was an ordinary business the banks would as they are every day of the week close them down by withdrawing their facilities. I agree that green fees had reached a ridiculous state, but the old heads green fees are more reduced to the cost the americnas are prepared to pay than anything else, I certainly wouldn't have paid e1300 a line to pay it two years ago no more than I would pay e80 now that they need my few bob

Unglika Norse

Sammo13 wrote: »

Golf clubs are in tormoil across the land, but also Hotels, Bars and other entertainment establishments which have left creditors high and dry.

These golf clubs mentioned are now offering deals to people what should have been the norm, is this a bad thing?

Or should we just put a fence around them cause they are now been taken over by NAMA.

exactly sammo and hotels owned by banks should also be closed because they are being allowed to trade with unfair advantage, you don't find them keeping many bars opened because they did not invest in the building of them to the same extent as they did hotels so they will let bars close down all over the country along with the other 100 businesses a week that have closed down this year because the banks wouldn't or couldn't support them

jackal

Golf Pro wrote: »

I'd like to start a campaign to ask golfers to boycott the golf courses that are being run by a receiver appointed by the banks. Anyone interested???

Good, well established and well run member's clubs are on the edge of going bust because the receivers are competing with them and giving away green fees and memberships just to be able to sell the place as a going concern and get as much as possible for the bank!!

These include Maccreddin, Tulfarris, Citywest, Palmerstown House, Knockanally, The Heritage, Blarney, Kilkee Castle and possibly more

Your argument holds as much water as the smart homes guy who said people who buy cut price houses are stealing from the creditors that were never paid by the developer.

I think you will find that the well of sympathy for "established members clubs" from the casual golfer is not very deep. For one reason or another, the clubs mentioned above were out of reach for the likes of us. I have happily paid and played at a few of the courses mentioned already. The status of these courses does not interest me beyond them staying open and cheap.

Golf Pro

I think some people are missing the point...A golf course and a golf business is not sustainable at some of the rates that are being charged at the moment. It is the ordinary golfer who is going to loose out when courses are no longer maintained correctly or clubhouses are shutdown.

The receivers are creating a race to the bottom and the ordinary golfer or the regular club member will be the big looser

zztop

What about the sponsorship banks give to club competitions.
Ya gotta live with them.

jackal

Look, the whole golf sector was totally over done in the last decade. Loads of courses are going to end up folding. The best will ultimately pull through.

You are asking people who have nothing to do with the problems of golf clubs, to side with the places that charge more? Will you cop on! The same is happening in the hotel sector. You are appealing to the wrong people, the punters will just spend their dough as they see fit, getting the best value they can. The financial status of a club is not their concern.

Figo69

jackal wrote: »

Look, the whole golf sector was totally over done in the last decade. Loads of courses are going to end up folding. The best will ultimately pull through.

You are asking people who have nothing to do with the problems of golf clubs, to side with the places that charge more? Will you cop on! The same is happening in the hotel sector. You are appealing to the wrong people, the punters will just spend their dough as they see fit, getting the best value they can. The financial status of a club is not their concern.

Exactly!!! I don't know what the problem is here. Golf clubs all around the country are suffering so therefore are reducing the green fees and abolishing the entrance fee. Surely this is what an average golfer would like to see, something to be able to afford and play whenever its suit them.
Golf club that are in receivership don't mean a bad thing, despite the difficult economic climate some clubs are getting a huge volume of vistors and generating some kind of income. This will keep the banks happy and importantly all golfers around the country.

If not, its a good time to be playing golf!:):):)

Jaysoose

Interesting look at the psyche of the 'vested interest', asking people to pay more for golf simply because they think it's worth the money.

Sorry op but people will not stump up whatever number clubs pluck out of the air to somehow justify their own overvalued opinion of the service being provided.

Market forces are at work and its a GOOD thing for the average golfer, just because some poser borrowed money they didnt have to join a club a few years ago doesnt mean they paid the right money.

If the bank clubs start falling into disrepair and general scruffyness then people wont go there either, hopefully this will leave us in a situation were quality and value for money are the norm.

soundsham

Golf Pro wrote: »

I'd like to start a campaign to ask golfers to boycott the golf courses that are being run by a receiver appointed by the banks. Anyone interested???

Good, well established and well run member's clubs are on the edge of going bust because the receivers are competing with them and giving away green fees and memberships just to be able to sell the place as a going concern and get as much as possible for the bank!!

These include Maccreddin, Tulfarris, Citywest, Palmerstown House, Knockanally, The Heritage, Blarney, Kilkee Castle and possibly more

Here here......

I stopped putting my money into the banks too every week that'll show the 4uckers:rolleyes:

TheGrump

The way I look at is that the clubs in recievership still have staff, like greenkeepers etc who are on the verge of losing their jobs (some already have no doubt) so if I play there I can keep it open a while longer and help to keep someone in their job.

I don't get this arguement of boycotting them to help other clubs just in case the other clubs then go bust. If they are "Good, well established and well run" then they shouldn't have large unsustainable debt and they should be able to see their way through the next few years with some minor adjustments.

kosmo10

You really need to get a life. All the courses you mention are huge employers in there respective areas, boycotting these courses would result in job losses which is not benificial to anyone. Posting such comments is a sign of ignorance and desperation.

I am sure you would love to see these courses close to pave the way for your glorified Par 3 up there in Dunmurry.

kippy

Hi,
Before I go into this, I am not a golfer but this type of thing is going to be a bigger and bigger problem for all sectors of Irish business over the next decade.

Been following this thread with interest. I have to say, while I dont particularily like to see jobs lost in any sector so I amn't advocating boycotting any particular golf courses however there are issues here.

It is very similiar to the hotels who are in control of the banks/NAMA. Once these businesses are being run as a going concern by these organisations they can significently undercut the other business' in their areas thus putting these other business' at a competitive disadvantage.
I see it here in Galway with hotels. The guys who looked after their business during the boom, keeping everything well run, not sinking massive money into other investments based on their hotels are all getting shafted now when they see hotels built with seriously stupidly borrowed money, no in control of the banks considerably undercut them mainly due to the fact that the banks are running them and the banks would prefer to get a very small repayment on their loan than nothing at all.

Does anyone not see the problems that are arising from these situations that are happening right now all over the country as a result of banks taking over business' as going concerns?
Its the exact same with golf clubs.......
Its got nothing to do with members getting loans for membership fees, its got to do with the unfair (in my eyes) competitive advantage that some business' have over others..........

Have the competition authority any thoughts on these matters I wonder.........

Sandwlch

Generally agree with kippy. Not that i think it will have any practical difference, but am already boycotting a couple of those courses. I have sympathy with anyone loosing their job at one, but better that it happen at those market distorting Nama ones than the ones who did not get themselves into financial trouble. Supported ones are choosing to operate at a loss since it is a more attractive option than liquidation, and reduces the losses that will be incurred by their investors. So let them go, rather than further help bail out speculators who made poor decisions (your taxes will do enough of that over the next ten years), and have well run clubs suffer into the bargain.
Anyone have a definitive list of Namad courses for us to avoid ?

couerdelion

Sandwlch wrote: »

Generally agree with kippy. Not that i think it will have any practical difference, but am already boycotting a couple of those courses. I have sympathy with anyone loosing their job at one, but better that it happen at those market distorting Nama ones than the ones who did not get themselves into financial trouble. Supported ones are choosing to operate at a loss since it is a more attractive option than liquidation, and reduces the losses that will be incurred by their investors. So let them go, rather than further help bail out speculators who made poor decisions (your taxes will do enough of that over the next ten years), and have well run clubs suffer into the bargain.
Anyone have a definitive list of Namad courses for us to avoid ?

Have you actually thought that through?

As they are in NAMA it isn't benefitting the speculators. If what the speculators/developers owe is significant then they'll declare bankruptacy anyway.

Surely as tax payers it is in our interest for NAMA to realise as great as possible a profit from any loans it has taken on from the banks and that by the liquidators keeping these courses going then this keeps them in with the best possible chance of doing this?

It is not economical for anyone to sustain a loss making entity for a significant period of time. The courses will either close if they are truly economic or be taken over by companies wantnig to run them at a profit.

If I were a member of a private golf club though I would want these other courses to close as it may raise entrance fees up to previous levels so I can realise my investment(speculation?) and visitors green fees thereby helping to keep my annual fees lower.

*Disclaimer: I'm a member of a Nama course so my views may not be truly impartial.

kippy

couerdelion wrote: »

Have you actually thought that through?

As they are in NAMA it isn't benefitting the speculators. If what the speculators/developers owe is significant then they'll declare bankruptacy anyway.

Surely as tax payers it is in our interest for NAMA to realise as great as possible a profit from any loans it has taken on from the banks and that by the liquidators keeping these courses going then this keeps them in with the best possible chance of doing this?

It is not economical for anyone to sustain a loss making entity for a significant period of time. The courses will either close if they are truly economic or be taken over by companies wantnig to run them at a profit.

If I were a member of a private golf club though I would want these other courses to close as it may raise entrance fees up to previous levels so I can realise my investment(speculation?) and visitors green fees thereby helping to keep my annual fees lower.

*Disclaimer: I'm a member of a Nama course so my views may not be truly impartial.

Your views are as impartial as anyone else.
Do you see the issues however in wider business with the increase in business being supported by NAMA/Banks to the detriment of those who kept their noses clean during the "boom".

While I do see a benefit to the consumer, what will end up happening is those no supported businesses will find it increasingly difficult to trade and could end up going under. A domino effect.

couerdelion

kippy wrote: »

Your views are as impartial as anyone else.
Do you see the issues however in wider business with the increase in business being supported by NAMA/Banks to the detriment of those who kept their noses clean during the "boom".

While I do see a benefit to the consumer, what will end up happening is those no supported businesses will find it increasingly difficult to trade and could end up going under. A domino effect.

My opinion is that the receiver can't afford to keep unprofitable businesses going for any length of time unless they can prove to potential buyers that the business could be profitable. This may mean cutting a huge number of jobs and running the business as a skeleton operation, and decreasing prices to match that lower level of service. But there comes a point where if the business is still not making money the receiver has no choice but to either close or further cut services. In the case of a golf course the more services they cut the more the end product deteriates.

There's a little bit of a parallel in Ireland (albeit excluding NAMA) with barbers. A swathe of new €5 shops have opened undercutting the established businesses. But they aren't really competing as they don't offer the same service. I pay €25 and I get a good haircut, my hair washed and a relaxing head massage or I pay €5 and comeout looking like I am in the eastern european military. Whilst the golf courses are still competing if they don't start making money the cuts will come and we'll end up with two tiers of golf clubs. A well run business will still continue to make proftit. Those clubs that might not be able to compete against propped up NAMA courses probably aren't being run all that well anyway. (in my opinion).

Golf Pro

Just to be clear. This is nothing to do with Nama or liquidators as most facilities are below the limit for Nama and there are no liquidators involved. This is about 'receivers' running golf clubs for those of you that understand the difference. In actual fact, clubs would be better off if a liquidator was involved, as the liquidator would sell the business to the highest bidder which would probably be the members, all creditors including the bank would be paid an equal share of their debt and the club would be restarted with smaller debt and a properly run business. This is actually what Knockanally tried to do before the banks appointed the receiver.
What I am suggesting is that the sooner receivers are taken out of the equation the better for everyone. Also be very clear, these businesses will not shut down with the loss of jobs as there is too much of a capital investment involved to shut them down just because these is a few tough years. They are being run by receivers to be sold as a going concern and the sooner they are sold (probably to members in a lot of cases) the better!

couerdelion

Apologies, I do know the difference between a liquidator (selling off the assets) and a receiver (taking charge of the assets). I will adjust my previous post.

Jaysoose

couerdelion wrote: »

My opinion is that the receiver can't afford to keep unprofitable businesses going for any length of time unless they can prove to potential buyers that the business could be profitable. This may mean cutting a huge number of jobs and running the business as a skeleton operation, and decreasing prices to match that lower level of service. But there comes a point where if the business is still not making money the receiver has no choice but to either close or further cut services. In the case of a golf course the more services they cut the more the end product deteriates.

There's a little bit of a parallel in Ireland (albeit excluding NAMA) with barbers. A swathe of new €5 shops have opened undercutting the established businesses. But they aren't really competing as they don't offer the same service. I pay €25 and I get a good haircut, my hair washed and a relaxing head massage or I pay €5 and comeout looking like I am in the eastern european military. Whilst the golf courses are still competing if they don't start making money the cuts will come and we'll end up with two tiers of golf clubs. A well run business will still continue to make proftit. Those clubs that might not be able to compete against propped up NAMA courses probably aren't being run all that well anyway. (in my opinion).

Your attempting to compare golfers with people getting haircuts... golfers will not pay over the odds for average services and will tell everybody they know about it.

The prices being charged for rounds of golf in ireland have been a joke in recent years.

couerdelion

Jaysoose wrote: »

Your attempting to compare golfers with people getting haircuts... golfers will not pay over the odds for average services and will tell everybody they know about it.

The prices being charged for rounds of golf in ireland have been a joke in recent years.

That's what I am saying. Golfers won't pay over the odds for average services. In order to justify the prices the quality needs to be higher than those charging rock bottom prices. If clubs aren't providing 'value' then they will be unsustainable.

Yes the hairdressing anology is a bit crap but I guess I was alluding to golfers deciding if they want a cheap round on a course with a number of divots and pitch marks with rough greens or a well kept course which cost more money? You would probably get people choosing to do both, but they aren't really competing.