Negotiating Start Date?

GreeBo

Hey,

I've just been offered a job by the recruiter for a company. I have a 2 month notice period in my current job but also have 20 days unused holidays.
I was saving these holidays to go on an extended trip in dev/jan (6 weeks) but now this new job has come up and I want it.

The recruiter is of the opinion that the new employer will not take kindly to me even mentioning this holiday, but its a part of my plans so I dont want to dismiss it. Im willing to drop it to 4 weeks but would like the opportunity to discuss it with HR directly, rather than just with the recruiter.
Going straight into the new job would mean that I will have worked ~20 months straight of 10-12 hours days, I think Im liable to implode if I do this.

So, my questions are:
- Can my current employer force me to work the full 8 weeks notice period, and then just pay me for the outstanding annual leave? Are there any legal entitlements for me to have taken at least a 2 week consecutive break per year? (Or am I imagining that one?)
- How do I get to the point of communicating with HR directly, the recruiter seems to want me to deal with them directly.
- Finally, I presume its normal for me to not start proceedings with my current employer until I have a signed contract in my hands? How does this work if we have not agreed a start date? I dont want to risk losing the offer by being seen to be awkward.

Cheers!

pollypocket10

GreeBo wrote: »

Hey,

I've just been offered a job by the recruiter for a company. I have a 2 month notice period in my current job but also have 20 days unused holidays.
I was saving these holidays to go on an extended trip in dev/jan (6 weeks) but now this new job has come up and I want it.

The recruiter is of the opinion that the new employer will not take kindly to me even mentioning this holiday, but its a part of my plans so I dont want to dismiss it. Im willing to drop it to 4 weeks but would like the opportunity to discuss it with HR directly, rather than just with the recruiter.
Going straight into the new job would mean that I will have worked ~20 months straight of 10-12 hours days, I think Im liable to implode if I do this.

So, my questions are:
- Can my current employer force me to work the full 8 weeks notice period, and then just pay me for the outstanding annual leave? Are there any legal entitlements for me to have taken at least a 2 week consecutive break per year? (Or am I imagining that one?)
- How do I get to the point of communicating with HR directly, the recruiter seems to want me to deal with them directly.
- Finally, I presume its normal for me to not start proceedings with my current employer until I have a signed contract in my hands? How does this work if we have not agreed a start date? I dont want to risk losing the offer by being seen to be awkward.

Cheers!

1. You currently employer can't force you to do anything. They may take legal proceedings against you for breach of contract if you don't work your full notice period. Who knows what the chances of them doing that will be? Probably slim unless your role is particularly key.
In any case it's best to try and leave on good terms so the best thing would be to open the lines of communication about having a shorter notice period.

Your holidays may be taken as part of the notice period if dates were previously agree.

There is no legislation that you have to have two weeks annual leave together in a 12 month period.

2. You should tell (not ask) the recruiter that you are going to communicate with HR directly with regards to the start date and your plans and then call them directly. Be sure to tell the recruiter first, if they think you are going behind their back they will never work with you again. Be aware though that HR may not want to talk to you, after all they pay the recruiter to deal with issues such as this. Also be aware that if you insist on pressing ahead with your plans the offer may be withdrawn.

3. You are risking losing the offer due to being awkward. I would get the offer in writing before you give in your notice. However even with a signed contract the offer can still be revoked.

IMO, you are taking about an excessive amount of time before the start date. From the dates you've mentioned I am guessing approx 3 months, maybe more?

Now is the time to prioritize, before you enter into negotiations decide whether or not you are willing to give up or shorten this trip significantly OR if you are willing to lose the offer. Also try to see this from other peoples point of view and try not to pi*s them off, whether it be the current employer, prospective employer or recruiter. You never know when you might need these people's help again.

Eoin

I was in a similar position - I had a 3 month notice period which was too long for my current employer.

- Can my current employer force me to work the full 8 weeks notice period, and then just pay me for the outstanding annual leave? Are there any legal entitlements for me to have taken at least a 2 week consecutive break per year? (Or am I imagining that one?)

As pollypocket10 said, they can't obviously physically force you to do anything, but they are well within their rights to not allow you to use your leave during your notice period. So from a legal point of view, they can "force" you to work the full notice period.

- How do I get to the point of communicating with HR directly, the recruiter seems to want me to deal with them directly.

Some companies want the recruiter to earn their keep and deal with as much of the admin as possible, so maybe the company want you to deal with the agency.

- Finally, I presume its normal for me to not start proceedings with my current employer until I have a signed contract in my hands? How does this work if we have not agreed a start date? I dont want to risk losing the offer by being seen to be awkward.

Always a good idea - but remember that even a signed contract would mean that your new employer could change their mind and give you a week's pay (or whatever notice period is in the contract) in lieu. I handed in my notice without a signed contract.

3DataModem

GreeBo wrote: »

Hey,

I've just been offered a job by the recruiter for a company. I have a 2 month notice period in my current job but also have 20 days unused holidays.
I was saving these holidays to go on an extended trip in dev/jan (6 weeks) but now this new job has come up and I want it.

The recruiter is of the opinion that the new employer will not take kindly to me even mentioning this holiday, but its a part of my plans so I dont want to dismiss it. Im willing to drop it to 4 weeks but would like the opportunity to discuss it with HR directly, rather than just with the recruiter.
Going straight into the new job would mean that I will have worked ~20 months straight of 10-12 hours days, I think Im liable to implode if I do this.

So, my questions are:
- Can my current employer force me to work the full 8 weeks notice period, and then just pay me for the outstanding annual leave? Are there any legal entitlements for me to have taken at least a 2 week consecutive break per year? (Or am I imagining that one?)
- How do I get to the point of communicating with HR directly, the recruiter seems to want me to deal with them directly.
- Finally, I presume its normal for me to not start proceedings with my current employer until I have a signed contract in my hands? How does this work if we have not agreed a start date? I dont want to risk losing the offer by being seen to be awkward.

Cheers!

My advice is agree an acceptable start date with new employer, get signed contract, hand in notice, tell current employers you would prefer not to work out notice, and make a deal shortening it as much as possible IF possible.

Then if you have a gap in the middle - book a vacation.

GreeBo

Thx for the replies.
Part of the concern is that I am somewhat key at the moment, Im pretty much the last of a specific team to leave. Part of the reason Im leaving is that the other 3 were not replaced...hence the 12 hours days.

The recruiters were specifically hired by the new company to do all their hiring, but I still feel that I should have this conversation with HR and the recruiter, otherwise I wont have a feel for what their thoughts are.

I would be looking to start at the latest 12 weeks from the resignation date, its possible that my current employer will let me take some holidays at the end, but naturally I cant ask them before I get the new contract.

Also, legally Im entitled to take my annual leave in the year its accrued, if I were to resign today that would make my last working day be the 20 Dec, so not enough time left to take 20 days that year. How does that fit into things?

Eoin

From this page:

Annual leave and leaving employment

It is illegal under the Organisation of Working Time Act, 1997 for an employer to pay an allowance in lieu of the minimum statutory holiday entitlement of an employee unless the employment relationship is terminated. In general, your annual leave is calculated on the basis of hours worked.

If you are leaving a job you are entitled to receive payment for any outstanding annual leave and public holidays due to you.

They do also mention the following:

An employee who has worked for at least 8 months is entitled to an unbroken period of 2 weeks' annual leave.

But it doesn't seem clear what takes precedence.

GreeBo

Yeah, NERA didnt seem to sure either when I spoke to them.

Eoin

If you're stuck, I can ask a solicitor.

murphym7

I have a 3 month notice period in my contract of employement - as does everyone else working here. Nobody in the 15 years we are operating has ever given more than 6 weeks and the average is 4 weeks. This is the first point to look at, have previous leavers given the full notice period? If the norm is not to, then you are laughing. If you have to work your 2 months then use your 20 days to reduce your notice period to one month - new employer will be expecting minimum notice period of 4 weeks anyway.

Always leave on good terms if possible, very important if you are working in a very specific industry. There is a good chance you may meet some of these people in another organisation.

Do not play hardball with your new employer about the 6 week holiday - in fact if it was me, and I really wanted the new job, I would not even ask. It is a very cheaky thing to do. Put yourself in their boots - they have paid a lot of money to get you in, then you want to f**k off after a few weeks of work for a 6 week holiday, no way will they wear that one, unless you are a superstar at what you do.

We would be OK with somone taking a two week holiday after starting, we would not be thrilled, but we are human in my organisation. If a candidate starting banging on about heading away on a 4/6 week holiday shortly after starting we would not progress them any further, end of story. Unless of course we really really needed them.

Eoin

murphym7 wrote: »

If you have to work your 2 months then use your 20 days to reduce your notice period to one month - new employer will be expecting minimum notice period of 4 weeks anyway.

The issue is that the company is entitled to not allow any leave to be used during the notice period, and just pay the OP for any outstanding leave instead.

seamus

Try to come to some compromise with the new employer. Explain this to them:

Going straight into the new job would mean that I will have worked ~20 months straight of 10-12 hours days, I think Im liable to implode if I do this.

And see if they will give you a 4 week break (say 2 weeks paid, 2 weeks unpaid) at the end of February. At that point you'll have been in the company for two months - enough to learn the ropes and add a bit of value, then after your break you'll come back refreshed and not burnt out.

You'll be getting 4 weeks of back pay for your annual leave from your current employer so taking 2 weeks' unpaid leave shouldn't be a problem money-wise.

Oh, and linkedin is a great place for finding the names of HR people and such in the company you're going to, but beware of pissing off the recruiter by going over their head.

GreeBo

seamus wrote: »

Try to come to some compromise with the new employer. Explain this to them:

And see if they will give you a 4 week break (say 2 weeks paid, 2 weeks unpaid) at the end of February. At that point you'll have been in the company for two months - enough to learn the ropes and add a bit of value, then after your break you'll come back refreshed and not burnt out.

You'll be getting 4 weeks of back pay for your annual leave from your current employer so taking 2 weeks' unpaid leave shouldn't be a problem money-wise.

Oh, and linkedin is a great place for finding the names of HR people and such in the company you're going to, but beware of pissing off the recruiter by going over their head.

Yeah thanks for that. I have the HR details just dont want to bypass recruiter. Also found out from someone else that its all done through this recruiter only moving to HR after you sign.
To be honest Im not worried about the money side, Id take it all unpaid if needs be. Ideally they would let me start 2 weeks late and I would get 2 weeks off from the current place, but trying to juggle the two when I can only really talk to one of them.

Standard is to give the full notice and depending on circumstances use annual leave etc.

GreeBo

Quick question, if your contract says 2 months notice, is that 8 weeks or calendar months?
Is there a standard?

seamus

I don't think there's a standard. The assumption would be two calendar months, otherwise the contract would say "8 weeks". My contracts explicitly says "4 weeks" and not "one month".