The Government's Obligation to Emigrants?

southsiderosie

The IT ran a story yesterday about an Irish man who died alone in New York and was only found a week later. This prompted efforts to survey elderly Irish in NYC and better understand their social networks and their links to Ireland. Interestingly, organizers asked the Irish government for assistance and were turned down; then ended up getting a grant through New York Senator Chuck Schumer.

Although it is an unfortunate fact that many elderly people - regardless of nationality - will die lonely and alone, I thought the response of the Irish government here was interesting. From what I can tell, for a country with such a large emigrant population, the Irish government is not very proactive when it comes to dealing with emigrants. Irish abroad can't vote and the government doesn't really seem to be that involved in emigrant issues other than seeing the ex-pat community as a source of potential investment. Politically, the Irish government seems to lean on its "special relationship" with the US; in practice this meant getting Ted Kennedy to act as if Ireland were a district of Massachusetts. This is in contrast to other emigration countries like Poland or Mexico, which seem to be very involved both with expat communities directly and with governments in host countries for their foreign nationals.

So my question is, what obligations should governments have to their citizens living abroad? What level of assistance or rights should be afforded to them? Do the obligations and rights of citizenship extend beyond the borders of the state?

(And since the last thread on emigrant voting turned into the same six people yelling at each other - myself included - I'm thinking in more broad terms here, not just about voting rights)

meditraitor

southsiderosie wrote: »

So my question is, what obligations should governments have to their citizens living abroad? What level of assistance or rights should be afforded to them? Do the obligations and rights of citizenship extend beyond the borders of the state?

If you permanently live abroad are you really a citizen?

seamus

If they are not resident here they are not paying taxes and are therefore not elgible for Irish government assistance.

That aside, if someone is working in sub-saharan Africa curing aids, that's one thing, but I don't see why we would spend money taking care of vulnerable people living in other countries that are perfectly capable of looking after them.

There are enough anonymous elderly Irish people dying in Ireland on a regular basis because nobody knows they're there, maybe we should focus on our obligations and assistance towards them before we go sending money abroad?

Edit:
"Locating" vulnerable elderly people is really only one part of this puzzle. Suicide rates amongst pensioners is the highest out of all age groups, but it largely goes unnoticed because as a % of deaths, it's down below heart disease and such. Pensioner suicides are often also recorded as natural deaths or heart attacks in this country in particular out of due regard for sensitivity.

southsiderosie

meditraitor wrote: »

If you permanently live abroad are you really a citizen?

There are a lot of immigrants in the US who get permanent residency, but never actually get their citizenship. So, yes, they would still be citizens.

seamus wrote: »

If they are not resident here they are not paying taxes and are therefore not elgible for Irish government assistance.

I don't mean welfare payments or anything like that. But the Irish government's approach to its emigrants is "OK, bye", whereas governments of other emigration countries work very hard to maintain political and economic ties with their emigrant populations, and to offer government assistance to organizations and other services for their foreign nationals abroad. Again, the Polish government is an example.

I suppose the Irish government would behave differently if Irish could vote from abroad, but Mexicans couldn't do this until recently, and their government still was very engaged in cross-border issues. They don't just talk about the importance of the diaspora.

Part of me thinks that this is because, quite frankly, the Irish government doesn't seem to care that much about its citizens within its borders, much less outside...but I am trying to work on my cynicism.

Permabear

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meditraitor

donegalfella wrote: »

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Thats one of the most insighteful posts Ive seen around here in a while....
great observation.

Essexboy

In the 1950s De Valera urged Irish emigrants in Britain to return home, as their living conditions in British cities were often poor
His grasp of emigrant life demonstrated a seriously worrying lack of understanding about the underlying state of Ireland.

metrovelvet

The Irish government never gave a crap about its diaspora. If an illegal Irish immigrant dies in the US, you know who picks up the tab for repatriation? The local Arch Dioscese.

I think this current government will only be too happy with the current state of emigrants because they are the people who will vote them out.

Fo Real

donegalfella wrote: »

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And the nepotism and the circle jerk continues....
I'm far from a leftie, but Labour appear to be the only party untainted by gombeenism.

I'd agree with David McWilliams when he says we must entice the brightest of our diaspora back home. Offer them tax breaks or even jobs in their particular field. We could use their expertise learned abroad to organise and build decent public transport, for example.

PeterIanStaker

This govt cares not a whit for its citizens, whether they're at home or abroad. Donegalfella hit the nail on the head so well, I wish I could thank him 4 times.

PeterIanStaker

Fo Real wrote: »

I'd agree with David McWilliams when he says we must entice the brightest of our diaspora back home. Offer them tax breaks or even jobs in their particular field. We could use their expertise learned abroad to organise and build decent public transport, for example.

If we enticed the brightest home, they wouldn't vote for FF. Therefore the safety valve they've encouraged for decades.

winter soldier

what i cannot understand with this story is how come the irish community in america did not look after one of their own? the irish community i am talking about are the ones that have been over there for 30 40 years. i was always led to believe that a lot of the older irish over there stuck together and pretty much made a home away from home in america, like they did in great britain.

southsiderosie

metrovelvet wrote: »

The Irish government never gave a crap about its diaspora. If an illegal Irish immigrant dies in the US, you know who picks up the tab for repatriation? The local Arch Dioscese.

The history of the Irish and the Catholic Church in the US is fascinating. They were really the welfare agency, embassy, information clearinghouse for folks on both sides of the Atlantic. My mother received a call out of the blue a few years ago from some long lost cousins in Clare who were able to track her down through old funeral mass cards that the parish priest in Chicago send back to folks in Lisseycasey more than 30 years ago.

winter soldier wrote: »

what i cannot understand with this story is how come the irish community in america did not look after one of their own? the irish community i am talking about are the ones that have been over there for 30 40 years. i was always led to believe that a lot of the older irish over there stuck together and pretty much made a home away from home in america, like they did in great britain.

Well, people move, friends and spouses die...There aren't too many Irish people left in a lot of those neighborhoods anyway; they are mostly West Indian, Asian and Latin American immigrants today.

But speaking of those countries, again, Ireland is a real outlier. Dominica has an annual meeting with ex-pats in the UK; the Mexican governor of Michoacan state visits Chicago annually, and Dominican political candidates campaign in New York (and this was before there was extraterritorial voting). Donegalfella, I get your point about FF benefiting (and I kind of suspected that) but it is pretty ironic given how much the government loves to talk up the diaspora.

metrovelvet

southsiderosie wrote: »

The history of the Irish and the Catholic Church in the US is fascinating. They were really the welfare agency, embassy, information clearinghouse for folks on both sides of the Atlantic. My mother received a call out of the blue a few years ago from some long lost cousins in Clare who were able to track her down through old funeral mass cards that the parish priest in Chicago send back to folks in Lisseycasey more than 30 years ago.



Well, people move, friends and spouses die...There aren't too many Irish people left in a lot of those neighborhoods anyway; they are mostly West Indian, Asian and Latin American immigrants today.

But speaking of those countries, again, Ireland is a real outlier. Dominica has an annual meeting with ex-pats in the UK; the Mexican governor of Michoacan state visits Chicago annually, and Dominican political candidates campaign in New York (and this was before there was extraterritorial voting). Donegalfella, I get your point about FF benefiting (and I kind of suspected that) but it is pretty ironic given how much the government loves to talk up the diaspora.

The government talks about the diaspora so it can keep its tourist revenue and fundraising money coming in.

They dont give a crap about Irish America. They like us when we are rich, like a Kennedy. But if you come over doing your geneology or whatever, you will be mocked mercilessly.

Lenny Lovett

meditraitor wrote: »

If you permanently live abroad are you really a citizen?

If you were born here in Ireland of Irish parentage Yes, you are a citizen!

One only has to go to Kilburn High Road in London and to the only real Irish pub (The Kingdom) left in Kilburn. You will see there most days a small group of elderly Irish people who emigrated (out of necessity not choice) in the 50s, 60s and 70s. They are now struggling on a much smaller pension than they would be entitled to in Ireland, and are generally in a sorry state. It is heartbreaking to talk to them and hear of their loneliness and desire to return to Ireland. We have a shocking and shameful record in care of our economic emigrants from years gone by. Regardless of their place of residence for the past few decades they are Irish citizens who were forced out of Ireland and we have a moral duty (if nothing else) to care for them and re-patriate them if required.

(Oh, and before you start questioning their reason for being in the pub during the day: They get fed there by the Owner and the food is paid for with the help of charitable donations and fundraising. They also get a discount on their few Pints. They need to get out of their flats at some stage in the day. It also ensures their short term welfare is looked after)

meditraitor

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

If you were born here in Ireland of Irish parentage Yes, you are a citizen!

One only has to go to Kilburn High Road in London and to the only real Irish pub (The Kingdom) left in Kilburn. You will see there most days a small group of elderly Irish people who emigrated (out of necessity not choice) in the 50s, 60s and 70s. They are now struggling on a much smaller pension than they would be entitled to in Ireland, and are generally in a sorry state. It is heartbreaking to talk to them and hear of their loneliness and desire to return to Ireland. We have a shocking and shameful record in care of our economic emigrants from years gone by. Regardless of their place of residence for the past few decades they are Irish citizens who were forced out of Ireland and we have a moral duty (if nothing else) to care for them and re-patriate them if required.

(Oh, and before you start questioning their reason for being in the pub during the day: They get fed there by the Owner and the food is paid for with the help of charitable donations and fundraising. They also get a discount on their few Pints. They need to get out of their flats at some stage in the day. It also ensures their short term welfare is looked after)

But that makes no sense! because if you read below Citizenship requires contribution to the society of which you claim citozenship... buggering of to England/USA for 30 years is reneging on this I think.

Citizenship is the state of being a citizen of a particular social, political, or national community.

Citizenship status, under social contract theory, carries with it both rights and responsibilities. "Active citizenship" is the philosophy that citizens should work towards the betterment of their community through economic participation, public , volunteer work, and other such efforts to improve life for all citizens. In this vein, schools in some countries provide citizenship education. Citizenship was equated by Virginia Leary (1999) as connoting "a bundle of rights -- primarily, political participation in the life of the community, the right to vote, and the right to receive certain protection from the community, as well as obligations."[1]

Now tell me how a person who goes and contributes/lives in another state for most of their life is a citizen of this one??

Lenny Lovett

meditraitor wrote: »

But that makes no sense! because if you read below Citizenship requires contribution to the society of which you claim citozenship... buggering of to England/USA for 30 years is reneging on this I think.

That's a fairly simplistic attitude towards the issue. They didn't "bugger off" (as you so eloquently put it) by choice but by neccessity. There was no work or prospects here then.

meditraitor wrote: »

Now tell me how a person who goes and contributes/lives in another state for most of their life is a citizen of this one??

Many if not all would love to move back here and integrate but they do not have the means to nor accommodation here if they did. Try and see the bigger picture.

who the fug

meditraitor wrote: »

Now tell me how a person who goes and contributes/lives in another state for most of their life is a citizen of this one??

But the state was quiet happy to see that generation send back money for 20/30 years to help their relatives.

These remissions were a significant part of the Irish economy.

Also the state is reaping the benefit of not having to pay pensions to that generation booted out in the fifties

ardmacha

Hopefully the government will ensure that emigrants don't leave their debts here for the rest of us to pay off.

delta720

metrovelvet wrote: »

The government talks about the diaspora so it can keep its tourist revenue and fundraising money coming in.

They dont give a crap about Irish America. They like us when we are rich, like a Kennedy. But if you come over doing your geneology or whatever, you will be mocked mercilessly.

It's called having the craic.

southsiderosie

meditraitor wrote: »

But that makes no sense! because if you read below Citizenship requires contribution to the society of which you claim citozenship... buggering of to England/USA for 30 years is reneging on this I think.

Now tell me how a person who goes and contributes/lives in another state for most of their life is a citizen of this one??

Irish citizens who leave have no political rights, as they have no mechanism for voting from abroad. So under a social contract theory, where both the state and the individual have rights, the state has failed. You cannot ask people to define citizenship as participatory, but then deny them the right to participation.

That said, the Irish diaspora has contributed hugely to the economy of Ireland, through remittances, tourism, and increasingly, investment. But their ties and contribution to the nation are not recognized by the state beyond platitudes at state dinners with American officials.

I think at a minimum, the Irish government could have some kind of consular services to help these older people.