So What's The Scéal with Mini-Buses?

cormie

Hi,
Does anyone here own a mini bus at all? A Transit one in particular? What's the situation with using them, I know to drive one with more than 8 passenger seats, you need a C (?) license. Is there a long waiting list for these tests and do you need a mini bus of your own to take the test or how does it work?

Also, will they not pass the DOE without a speed limiter and if so, what speed limits are they restricted to?

Now for anyone with a transit mini bus, are the seats easy to put in and take back out?

Is the tax still €288 on a transit one?

Any feedback appreciated

loobylou

Our work buses have recently had limiters fitted to pass the DOE. Limited to 100kph (although actually 97kph according to satnav).
They don't even have seating for more than 8 passengers but we've been told that they needed limiters fitted as the bus "has the potential to have more than 8 passengers".

jimmyw

cormie wrote: »

Hi,
Does anyone here own a mini bus at all? A Transit one in particular? What's the situation with using them, I know to drive one with more than 8 passenger seats, you need a C (?) license. Is there a long waiting list for these tests and do you need a mini bus of your own to take the test or how does it work?

Also, will they not pass the DOE without a speed limiter and if so, what speed limits are they restricted to?

Now for anyone with a transit mini bus, are the seats easy to put in and take back out?

Is the tax still €288 on a transit one?

Any feedback appreciated

No you need a D1 to drive a mini bus.C and c1 are for trucks.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/travel-and-recreation/motoring-1/driver-licensing/categories_of_motor_vehicles_and_minimum_age_of_drivers_in_ireland

Sorry cant help you with the tests for these

cormie

Thanks for the replies

So are the limiters only required for vans with capacity of more than 8 passengers? And is it 8+Driver, or Driver + 7? The B category in the link says "8 passengers" but the D Category says "More than 8 people"

Also, if I get a D, or a C, does that automatically give me a D1/C1 I wonder?

The Real B-man

cormie wrote: »

Thanks for the replies

So are the limiters only required for vans with capacity of more than 8 passengers? And is it 8+Driver, or Driver + 7? The B category in the link says "8 passengers" but the D Category says "More than 8 people"

Also, if I get a D, or a C, does that automatically give me a D1/C1 I wonder?

Limiters are only required for D, D1 Vehicles

Its Driver +7 Passengers for B Licence

Its 1 to 16 Passengers including Driver for D1

Yes if you get a D you will automatically get the D1 Same goes for C

cormie

Thanks a lot for clearing that up, jeez, I always thought it was driver+8 passengers in B license. I thought I always heard people ordering an "8 seater" taxi and would assume this would be so popular because it can be driven on B license.

May look into getting a D in that case, can a D test be taken in a 16 seater transit, or would it have to be something bigger like a coach and if so, would the test centre provide this or do I have to get my own coach for a day? :eek:

db

Category B allows for up to 8 passengers.

Mc Love

Yeah I know someone with a B licence that drives those type of minibuses all the time

cormie

Wait, so you're both saying it's driver+ 8 on Category B? So, 9 total?

The wording could be better on it.

jimmyw

cormie wrote: »

Thanks a lot for clearing that up, jeez, I always thought it was driver+8 passengers in B license. I thought I always heard people ordering an "8 seater" taxi and would assume this would be so popular because it can be driven on B license.

May look into getting a D in that case, can a D test be taken in a 16 seater transit, or would it have to be something bigger like a coach and if so, would the test centre provide this or do I have to get my own coach for a day? :eek:

Would a transit type mini bus hold 16 seats? I would say you would have to do the test on a full size coach.I assume your instructor would provide the coach, (for a fee;)).

OldmanMondeo

Also bear in mind you would need a tacho in the bus. And if the bus is registered after April 06, it has to be a digital unit, therefore more costs.

loobylou

The minibuses I drive have seating for 7 passengers. (Renault Masters).
We have had to have the limiters fitted (per RSA) because Renault manufacture a minibus with more than 8 passenger seats on that same chassis. Therefore, because our vehicles have the "potential" to carry more than 8 passengers they are treated as such. You could'nt make it up:mad:

CiniO

I can see lots of different opinions on this, many of theme deny each other.
Just to clarify.

B licence permits you to drive any vehicle up to 8 passengers (9 people together with driver). It is based on number of seats, not actually number of people in.
So if you have a minibus with 14 seats, but carry only 5 people, your B licence is not enough.

C licence is for trucks, and has nothing to do with it.

To drive a minibus (more then 8 passengers) you need D1 or D licence. Difference between them is that D1 permits for buses up to 16 passengers, as D doesn't have this limit.
In other words if you have D licence, it permits you to drive any kind of passenger vehicle with seating capacity more then 8 passengers.
If you pass D test, you will automatically get D and D1 on your licence, but it's not really necessery, as D on it's own would be enough.

Some minibuses might need to be fitted with tachograph and speed limiter. There are some exceptions, so there is a chance you might be liable to one of them. Just contact RSA for details. On their website you can find as well al the info when you have to use tachograph, and when vehicle has to be fitted with speed limiter.

Speed limits for buses are as follows. 50 in towns, 80 outside towns, and 100 on dual carriage ways, and motorways. Speed limiter has to be set to 100km/h though.

Last thing that wasn't mentioned yet.
Driver of such a vehicle if he is doing it for reward (works as a driver) has to have Drivers CPC for Bus drivers. Otherwise he's not allowed to drive a bus for a reward.
To obtain CPC you have to pass good few additionall tests (therory and practical) in addition to your D or D1 licence tests. It's also bit costly. After it he/she has to do one day training every year.
If someone had D or D1 licence before 10th September 2008, he obtained CPC automatically, and only he/she has to do to maintin it is to do one day training every year.

Way easies then, is just to get a 8 seater minibus (9 with driver), as for it you don't need any tachographs, speed limiters, CPCs,.D licences, etc.
Just a normal B licence is enough.

CiniO

loobylou wrote: »

The minibuses I drive have seating for 7 passengers. (Renault Masters).
We have had to have the limiters fitted (per RSA) because Renault manufacture a minibus with more than 8 passenger seats on that same chassis. Therefore, because our vehicles have the "potential" to carry more than 8 passengers they are treated as such. You could'nt make it up:mad:

That's bull****.
There isn't such thing as potential.
Vehicle has to be registered with a certain number of seats. If it 9 or less, vehicle is trated as car. And doesn't need speed limiter, tachograph, and can be easily driven on B licence. That vehicle also is not allowed to carry more people.

If the chasis is the same, so you are ok to convert it into a minibus (add more seats), and then it can be registered as minibus. You will most likely need speed limiter then on it.
But untill it has only 9 seats (together with drivers seat) and is registered as 9 seater, it's not a minibus.

Whatever RSA told you, you shouldn't have agreed.
If they told you, that you have to have speed limiter on it, you should have gone to court with it. Regulations are very clear, so you wound win it easily.

loobylou

The DOE people would not pass it without limiter. RSA agreed.
The vehicles are adapted for the carriage of wheelchairs which complicates things. In no case though can more than 8 passengers be carried, ie if wheelchairs are strapped in place, some of the seats need to be folded away.

CiniO

loobylou wrote: »

The DOE people would not pass it without limiter. RSA agreed.
The vehicles are adapted for the carriage of wheelchairs which complicates things. In no case though can more than 8 passengers be carried, ie if wheelchairs are strapped in place, some of the seats need to be folded away.

DOE people wanted to make a couple of bob easy way by installing a speed limiter to the vehicle that doesn't require one. Maybe it was someone incompetent in RSA who agreed with it.

To be honest if it was about my minibus, I would go straight to court against that DOE centre and RSA.

Rules are really clear.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2005/en/si/0831.html

From it you can easily read that these regulations applies only to Goods vehicles and Passenger vehicles.

And quote from the regulations:

“passenger vehicle” means a vehicle having seating accommodation for more than 8 persons exclusive of the driver;

So if your bus is only registered to carry 8 people + driver (even in wheelchairs), then speed limitation devices regulations doesn't apply to it at all.

loobylou

I actually agree with you and argued the same at the time.
Not my call though, I'm only a lowly driver and management said they spoke with 3 different people in RSA who al said the same thing.
BTW It was not just one minibus but three!!!
More of a worry, if the RSA think they need a limiter, would they also think I need a D licence?

cormie

Thanks again for the feedback. So it is 9 (Driver plus 8 passengers) then? I thought it was before I started the thread. I find it strange the way the wording is on the website linked to. Is there any where that confirms for definite it's driver+8 passengers? It's just odd that they don't explain properly and then that the D only says 16 people as opposed to using the same wording and saying 15 passengers if it's driver plus 15

That's a fair bit of complications to get the extra few seats alright with the yearly training and everything like that.

The thing with me is that I wouldn't be carrying the passengers for reward, I'd be carrying their equipment for reward and then I'd have the passenger seats if required for them to hop in too. Not sure how that changes things!

Does it mention anywhere what exceptions there are for getting the limiter and tacho fitted?

Also, do you know, if I wanted to get a Driver+8 seater, can I get a 17 seater, take out 8 seats and then re-reg it as a 9 seater, just so I have the extra space as the 1+8 seaters seem to be short wheel base, low roof models where I'd be looking for a long wheel base medium-high roof.

Thanks again, very helpful!

db

The RSA Rules of the road website

cormie

Thank you! So it's Driver + 8 for B and Driver + 16 for D1 according to that!

buzzwell

CiniO wrote: »

DOE people wanted to make a couple of bob easy way by installing a speed limiter to the vehicle that doesn't require one. Maybe it was someone incompetent in RSA who agreed with it.

To be honest if it was about my minibus, I would go straight to court against that DOE centre and RSA.

Rules are really clear.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2005/en/si/0831.html

From it you can easily read that these regulations applies only to Goods vehicles and Passenger vehicles.

And quote from the regulations:


So if your bus is only registered to carry 8 people + driver (even in wheelchairs), then speed limitation devices regulations doesn't apply to it at all.

Correct!!
At last someone who can read and understand SI 831 of 2005!!!

I'm a bit late jumping onto this thread but sufice to say that the RSA have screwed up on this one big time, as diesel Transits (amongst other minibuses) registered before 2005 are exempt from the regulations.


For more info on this check out:




http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=67461327

cormie

I was about to start a new thread to ask this, but had it in the back of my head I had a thread on this before, but don't remember having the knowledge of this particular question:

cormie wrote: »

Also, do you know, if I wanted to get a Driver+8 seater, can I get a 17 seater, take out 8 seats and then re-reg it as a 9 seater, just so I have the extra space as the 1+8 seaters seem to be short wheel base, low roof models where I'd be looking for a long wheel base medium-high roof.

Thanks again, very helpful!

*Please don't lock the thread, a lot of useful info above and a lot of knowledgeable posters who may see this reply easier (email notifications, subscribed threads etc) than the same question if I were to start a new thread.

CiniO

Hi Cormie.

I'm sure you can convert your 16+1 seater to 8+1 seater, but I don't think it's as straight forward as you might think.

This would be the same kind of process as converting 5 seater jeep to commercial jeep as some people do to save on motortax, etc... Surely engineers report needed, as well as getting in touch with Shannon to update vehicle details.

Also bear in mind, that most (if not all) 16+1 seater transits, have plated D.G.V.W of over 3500kg. Few ones I've used were all 4250kg afair, and considering that, even if you convert it to 8+1 seats, you still can't drive it on B licence.
Technically, you'd need a truck licence (C or C1) to drive that.
Possibly, while converting to 8+1 you'd need to amend D.G.V.W to 3500kg, which I'm not sure if it's possible.

Also bear in mind, that once converted and D.G.V.W amended to 3500kg, it will be 8+1 passenger vehicle, which falls under the same laws as any passenger car.
Should be NCTed instead of CVRTed.
Also it would be liable to regular private tax (I believe under CO2 or CC depending on age) as you wouldn't be able to tax it as commercial, as this is only reserved for goods vehicles.
Only option to tax it cheap would be as SPSV (taxi), but you'd need a taxi or hackney licence for that.

cormie

Cinio, you're always very helpful, thanks a lot!

So it would need to be classed as a goods vehicle in order to qualify for commercial tax @ 333per annum?

Does this then mean it has to go through the DOE instead of NCT or is the DOE/NCT decision based on something else?

I'm just thinking of crew cabs here. Take this for example: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2014-63-Ford-Transit-2-2TDCi-125PS-EU5-RWD-350L-MWB-9-SEAT-CREW-CAB-/322050707026?hash=item4afbb7ce52:g:RZoAAOSwzvlW9AlM

9 seater 350L (350 model is 3.5t GVW), surely this would be classed as commercial and need a DOE even with the 9 seats? Is it the bulkhead between the cargo and passenger area that defines the difference here I wonder?

What would happen I wonder if you were to get the above van and remove the bulkhead? Do DOE tests check for a bulkhead?

CiniO

cormie wrote: »

Cinio, you're always very helpful, thanks a lot!

So it would need to be classed as a goods vehicle in order to qualify for commercial tax @ 333per annum?

Yes, definitely.
Only goods vehicles can be taxed as commercialls.
Term "goods vehicle" includes crewcab.

Does this then mean it has to go through the DOE instead of NCT or is the DOE/NCT decision based on something else?

Goods vehicles (vans, trucks, crewcabs), and passenger vehicles above 8+1 seats have to go through CVRT.
Passenger vehicles up to 8+1 so most cars, as well as minibuses with seating up to 8 passengers have to go through NCT.

I'm just thinking of crew cabs here. Take this for example: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2014-63-Ford-Transit-2-2TDCi-125PS-EU5-RWD-350L-MWB-9-SEAT-CREW-CAB-/322050707026?hash=item4afbb7ce52:g:RZoAAOSwzvlW9AlM

9 seater 350L (350 model is 3.5t GVW), surely this would be classed as commercial and need a DOE even with the 9 seats? Is it the bulkhead between the cargo and passenger area that defines the difference here I wonder?

Nice one.
Never seen a crewcab like that before but I like it.

I'm not sure though what are legilative requirements for crewcab in Ireland, so I'm not sure if such vehicle could be classed as crewcab in Ireland.
You'd need to check that.

What would happen I wonder if you were to get the above van and remove the bulkhead? Do DOE tests check for a bulkhead?

Having goods compartment separately is probably one of the main requirements for crewcab, so by removing bulkhead, it wouldn't classify as crewcab anymore.
I'd say it would definitely be a fail on CVRT as well as possible problems during roadside check or accident.

cormie

Thanks again. So the bulkhead obviously plays a huge part in the classification between commercial (DOE) and private (NCT). I can't imagine a van like the crew cab I linked to not being classed as commercial. Then I guess there's the question of at what point does it qualify as not a commercial and not private, but as a motorhome instead