Zero Fares On Iarnrod Eireann?

serfboard

Couldn't see if this has been discussed before, but the fact that it was on Morning Ireland this morning brings a new opportunity to look at it.

Anyway, the report was that IE are offering Ryanair-type zero fares, which are zero, then €3 with taxes and charges on Dublin->Galway.

This is in response to the competition from Bus Services on the M6. As predicted by many people on this forum, this competition was always going to be bad news for IE. I know that the fares are just promotional ones and not available on all services (or probably hardly any), but what they are doing now smacks of desperation to me.

Barry Kenny said that their subvention is decreasing and this is costing a fair bit of money, so there must be nobody traveling on the trains these days (can't remember when I last did myself - the bus journey is just so much better).

They are also considering extending this offer to Cork and Limerick as well - but I don't think the competition on those routes is as fierce as Galway->Dublin just yet.

With the new X20 Bus Eireann service doing Galway->Dublin Airport in 2:40 and Athlone->Dublin Airport in 1:20, surely this means the death of Train->Airlink as a way of getting to the airport for passengers near the M6?

Could we be witnessing the end of the Dublin to Galway train?

KC61

serfboard wrote: »

Couldn't see if this has been discussed before, but the fact that it was on Morning Ireland this morning brings a new opportunity to look at it.

Anyway, the report was that IE are offering Ryanair-type zero fares, which are zero, then €3 with taxes and charges on Dublin->Galway.

This is in response to the competition from Bus Services on the M6. As predicted by many people on this forum, this competition was always going to be bad news for IE. I know that the fares are just promotional ones and not available on all services (or probably hardly any), but what they are doing now smacks of desperation to me.

Barry Kenny said that their subvention is decreasing and this is costing a fair bit of money, so there must be nobody traveling on the trains these days (can't remember when I last did myself - the bus journey is just so much better).

They are also considering extending this offer to Cork and Limerick as well - but I don't think the competition on those routes is as fierce as Galway->Dublin just yet.

With the new X20 Bus Eireann service doing Galway->Dublin Airport in 2:40 and Athlone->Dublin Airport in 1:20, surely this means the death of Train->Airlink as a way of getting to the airport for passengers near the M6?

Could we be witnessing the end of the Dublin to Galway train?

It is demand pricing - and it is available on every train in limited numbers if you book far enough in advance. What do you suggest they do? Nothing? The train company had to do something in the face of the competition from the motorway and the bus companies. At the same time from this morning there is an 06:35 train from Galway to Dublin only stopping at Athenry and Athlone getting to Dublin in 2 hours 15 minutes. They need to extend this to other services in time to make the railway competitive again.

I would not write the train off yet - but the company needs to be innovative in terms of scheduling - the full implementation of the four tracking out of Heuston next year will allow greater flexibility, as will the additional 22k sets next year.

Judgement Day

If they are slashing fares why not reintroduce Fastrack as they obviously have space for it on the trains? Yank out a bay of seats and install a secure cupboard and it would more than pay for itself but let's face it CIE/IE is a dead man walking but nobody seems to realise it.

foggy_lad

Fast track was never fast and took so many overpaid staff to throw a few things into the guards van its a wonder it lasted so long.

As for routes into heuston, they stop a couple of miles short and it is the journeys from platforms 6, 7, 8 and 9 into the city centre that are killing Irish rail!

tombliboo83

There's already a secure cupboard for parcels in the 22s, next to disabled toilet but seems that they don't want the business

serfboard

KC61 wrote: »

It is demand pricing - and it is available on every train in limited numbers if you book far enough in advance. What do you suggest they do? Nothing?

No - of course they have to try and remedy the situation.

KC61 wrote: »

The train company had to do something in the face of the competition from the motorway and the bus companies.

Precisely. But it is only because of the competition that they are doing something about it. It is tantamount to saying that the service before the motorways was unacceptable and over-priced but they didn't bother doing anything about it because they didn't have to.

KC61 wrote: »

At the same time from this morning there is an 06:35 train from Galway to Dublin only stopping at Athenry and Athlone getting to Dublin in 2 hours 15 minutes. They need to extend this to other services in time to make the railway competitive again.

Now you're 100% getting my point. I am not, like some posters on here, advocating the death of IE - but what I am saying is that they need to get their act together fast before the roads and buses render them redundant. And so it seems they are.

KC61 wrote: »

I would not write the train off yet - but the company needs to be innovative in terms of scheduling

... and pricing. Which is where this offer comes in.

KC61 wrote: »

the full implementation of the four tracking out of Heuston next year will allow greater flexibility, as will the additional 22k sets next year.

Good. I hope it does. I am not anti-train, I would like to be able to do Galway->Dublin in 2 hours (as was promised 20 years ago by Maire Geoghan-Quinn when she was Minister for Transport), and at a reasonable cost.

Simply put - the motorway competition is showing that over-priced slow trains just won't cut it anymore. Passengers won't put up with it because we now have a very good alternative.

BTW, you didn't pick up on my point about the Dublin Airport service. Having been someone who trained/airlinked to Dublin Airport in the past, there is no way I would conceive of doing it now. And I know it's not a large percentage of the trains passengers, but it's still a percentage they will never get back.

mickydoomsux

foggy_lad wrote: »

Fast track was never fast and took so many overpaid staff to throw a few things into the guards van its a wonder it lasted so long.

Fair point on the speed but the staff putting stuff on the trains were just station operatives who were there anyway.

Also, why do you think IE staff are overpaid? Exactly how much do you think we make? Just because the boardof management are ridiculously overpaid (same as any large company) doesn't mean we all are.

sleepyman

Going to be discussing this on Matt Cooper now.

dowlingm

To be honest I don't think IE (or any other company in receipt of State subsidy) should be allowed to offer zero fares. Cheap fares, sure, but not undercutting a basic minimum amount.

If IE was separated from maintenance of the way and the latter abstracted into the NRA budget, the accusation that tax funding was being use

As for parcels, I'd offer DHL, Fedex, AnPost and people like that a tender to rent space on trains for parcels, with their personnel having responsibility for accepting, loading and unloading or onward transfer via local courier. A sort of Fastrack meets RailGourmet arrangement. The courier company could then transfer any local offices/loading areas to railway stations for a reasonable rent where space permitted.

Incidentally, I saw one of these yesterday - when it comes to freight where there's a will there's a way!

serfboard

sleepyman wrote: »

Going to be discussing this on Matt Cooper now.

Anyone hear how the discussion went?

flyingsnail

serfboard wrote: »

Anyone hear how the discussion went?

you can listen to it here, it's in part 1 at about 13:30

Judgement Day

God help us three people on the programme, none of whom know anything about railways, talking total horse ****. It is beyond comment. WiFi for everyone is IE's answer and poor old Conor Faughan seems to think that competition will be good for IE and as for Matt Cooper, he wants the trains to go faster - nobody of course has told him that they are in many cases slower than 25 years ago. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Transportuser09

foggy_lad wrote: »

Fast track was never fast and took so many overpaid staff to throw a few things into the guards van its a wonder it lasted so long.

Staff did more than just that; where is the evidence to suggest that they were overpaid?

foggy_lad wrote: »

As for routes into heuston, they stop a couple of miles short and it is the journeys from platforms 6, 7, 8 and 9 into the city centre that are killing Irish rail!

Not ideal maybe but I don't think this is killing Irish Rail. You could have a similar length, if not longer, to walk around the average Airport building.

foggy_lad

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Fair point on the speed but the staff putting stuff on the trains were just station operatives who were there anyway.

Also, why do you think IE staff are overpaid? Exactly how much do you think we make? Just because the boardof management are ridiculously overpaid (same as any large company) doesn't mean we all are.

were irish rail station staff not paid extra to handle freight? did many staff members make a lot of money from overtime which was brought about by fast track operations?

Transportuser09 wrote: »

Staff did more than just that; where is the evidence to suggest that they were overpaid?



Not ideal maybe but I don't think this is killing Irish Rail. You could have a similar length, if not longer, to walk around the average Airport building.

but when you are at an airport you expect to have a long distance to walk but rail stations are supposed to be there where they are needed in cities and towns not where ryanair consider city centres to be!

just look at connolly station, dart commuters have to walk the length of the station then pile through two small archways to a small stairs and escalator then up the ramp to platforms 6 and 7 and then walk to the end of the platforms to have any chance of a comfortable journey. commuters should just have to walk through a station doorway up an escalator and onto the platform after a short walk not a bloomin marathon!

mickydoomsux

foggy_lad wrote: »

were irish rail station staff not paid extra to handle freight? did many staff members make a lot of money from overtime which was brought about by fast track operations?

No. It was part of their job to handle frieght and the Fastrack business only ran during station opening hours so they weren't getting any overtime for just doing their jobs during their rostered hours

Where are you getting all this horrible mis-information from?

KC61

mickydoomsux wrote: »

No. It was part of their job to handle frieght and the Fastrack business only ran during station opening hours so they weren't getting any overtime for just doing their jobs during their rostered hours

Where are you getting all this horrible mis-information from?

His ever furtive imagination!

Transportuser09

foggy_lad wrote: »

just look at connolly station, dart commuters have to walk the length of the station then pile through two small archways to a small stairs and escalator then up the ramp to platforms 6 and 7 and then walk to the end of the platforms to have any chance of a comfortable journey. commuters should just have to walk through a station doorway up an escalator and onto the platform after a short walk not a bloomin marathon!

Possibly in the case of Connolly this could theoritically be alievated somewhat by reopening the old suburban entrance to platforms 6/7 from the street (gone about 10 years).

But in the case of Heuston I'm not sure there is anything that can be done. The platforms had to be put there, any nearer the main consourse and they would be in the Liffey; again they couldn't be put on the other side of the station because of St. John's Road. It's just one of those things you have to put up with. It's better than having fewer platforms and a reduced capacity surely. At least they aren't as far as platform 10, which had its own shuttle bus back in the day.

foggy_lad

Looking at connolly now there are only 3 platforms on the main concourse while there could easily be 5 or more and double width platforms would not be needed if the commuter entrance was reopened. Really the luas should have run on to this entrance. The same can be said for Heuston where so much space is wasted between trains at the expense of passengers. When irish rail redeveloped both stations it was for their own money saving operations rather than passenger comfort or ease of use for commuters who also have a trek to the farthest platforms in Heuston while intercity gets the platforms on the main concourse.

Ham'nd'egger

foggy_lad wrote: »

Looking at connolly now there are only 3 platforms on the main concourse while there could easily be 5 or more and double width platforms would not be needed if the commuter entrance was reopened. Really the luas should have run on to this entrance. The same can be said for Heuston where so much space is wasted between trains at the expense of passengers. When irish rail redeveloped both stations it was for their own money saving operations rather than passenger comfort or ease of use for commuters who also have a trek to the farthest platforms in Heuston while intercity gets the platforms on the main concourse.

Honest to God but the more you post on here the more inaccurate claptrap and balderdash you come out with :mad:

1) There are just 4 platforms under the roof of Connolly, one of which can reasonably only used for servicing trains and specials due to it's short platform, curved alignment and remoteness to running lines. Were it to be be extended, you'd lose the only emergency access route into Connolly from the car park side as well as well as the check in area for the Enterprise; this is needed for any security/customs checks. Of the 3 suburban platforms, there is zero scope to widen or lengthen them so any changes to them is out of the question. Were platform 4 to be narrowed to allow for a new platform, you are also narrowing an emergency access route to platforms 5, 6 and 7 for the sake of a terminal platform that is not needed, not to mention the long term closure of the whole station and yard to refit both it and the approaches.

2) If Luas was to run under Amien Street bridge you'd have to lower the road of a critical artery into the city by a good meter; I am sure that the traffic chaos of this along with losing traffic road space is something you haven't taken a moment to consider. In any case, exactly where is this Luas line going to lead to anyway, aside from a long closed door to the station that already has a Luas stop?:rolleyes:

3) The walk from platforms 6, 7 and 8 in Heuston is maybe 200 meters to the foyer and as has been pointed out before, it is a fraction of the walk that one has in Dublin airport. There was no room in Heuston to extend two more platforms under the shed without sacrificing both the drop off area and another emergency access point into the building. Any time I am in Heuston, I notice most commuter services leaving platforms 1, 2 and 3 while Cork services run from platform 5 as a given.

4) Incidentally, it's not too many moons back that Heuston only had 3 platforms in regular use so an increase of almost 200% of platforms is not too bad for service flexibility.

penexpers

Hamndegger wrote: »

3) The walk from platforms 6, 7 and 8 in Heuston is maybe 200 meters to the foyer and as has been pointed out before, it is a fraction of the walk that one has in Dublin airport.

It's also a fraction of the walk that one has when navigating other transport systems in other cities (London, Paris, New York etc..)

Jawgap

Trains are the most civilised form of transport but my impression of IE when compared to other operators is that they are hugely over-staffed - and if their subvention is decreasing then that's a nettle they'll have to grasp at some stage.

channelsurfer2

anyone try to book these fares? its 0euro one way but if you want a return it will cost anything between 15 to 25 euro depending on the time of return??

KC61

channelsurfer2 wrote: »

anyone try to book these fares? its 0euro one way but if you want a return it will cost anything between 15 to 25 euro depending on the time of return??

No - it depends on how far in advance you are booking and on which trains.

Carawaystick

Hamndegger wrote: »

1) There are just 4 platforms under the roof of Connolly, one of which can reasonably only used for servicing trains and specials due to it's short platform, curved alignment and remoteness to running lines. Were it to be be extended, you'd lose the only emergency access route into Connolly from the car park side as well as well as the check in area for the Enterprise; this is needed for any security/customs checks. Of the 3 suburban platforms, there is zero scope to widen or lengthen them so any changes to them is out of the question. Were platform 4 to be narrowed to allow for a new platform, you are also narrowing an emergency access route to platforms 5, 6 and 7 for the sake of a terminal platform that is not needed, not to mention the long term closure of the whole station and yard to refit both it and the approaches.

While I don't think there'a any roof over Platform1 in Connolly, it can take an 8 car 29k train, I presume P2 can also as can P3 & P4.

What IÉ should do is bridge from these platforms to P6&7

parsi

foggy_lad wrote: »

just look at connolly station, dart commuters have to walk the length of the station then pile through two small archways to a small stairs and escalator then up the ramp to platforms 6 and 7 and then walk to the end of the platforms to have any chance of a comfortable journey. commuters should just have to walk through a station doorway up an escalator and onto the platform after a short walk not a bloomin marathon!

Have a look at Gare de Nord (Paris) - it's a hefty trek from the RER platform to the Main Entrance - three lots of escalators involved.

mikemac

foggy_lad wrote: »

Looking at connolly now there are only 3 platforms on the main concourse while there could easily be 5 or more and double width platforms would not be needed if the commuter entrance was reopened. Really the luas should have run on to this entrance.

You'd break down in tears if you ended up in Roma Termini, a lot of walking involved to get to your platform, especially the train to the airport

Connolly and Heuston Station are tiny in comparison.
The grass isn't always greener outside Ireland

Cookie_Monster

feelingstressed wrote: »

Connolly and Heuston Station are tiny in comparison.
The grass isn't always greener outside Ireland

no, but at least it grows straight :pac::pac::pac:

Ham'nd'egger

Carawaystick wrote: »

While I don't think there'a any roof over Platform1 in Connolly, it can take an 8 car 29k train, I presume P2 can also as can P3 & P4.

What IÉ should do is bridge from these platforms to P6&7

Some of platform 1 is under the platform shed but as stated there are other factors against using it so it's role is mainly limited to specials and servicing trains. The other platforms can take long trains handy enough

There was a bridge from platform 4 to 6/7 back in the day but it was taken down when the DART was built. I guess that if it were to be replaced then it would have to cater for wheelchair access so God knows how much it would cost.

The Nipp

serfboard wrote: »

Anyway, the report was that IE are offering Ryanair-type zero fares, which are zero, then €3 with taxes and charges on Dublin->Galway.

what would 3e 'taxes and charges' be? 75c goes to each station and another useless 1.50 'administration fee' while everyone and their dog knows damn well it doesnt even cost them 0.15 of a cent to process the transaction?

CIE

Funny how the government controls the "competition" as far as transportation alignments go. They used the same justification to close the Cork suburban railways too, e.g. the Cork, Blackrock & Passage West had to close due to failing in the face of "bus competition"...hold on, you built the road for the buses to run on, and don't you run the buses as well? Based on that logic too, there should be no DART, and the 31 bus to Howth Strand and 45 bus to Bray Esplanade should be running every five minutes.

Dublin-Cork was supposed to be one of the prime candidates for electrification, they were saying in the 60s and early 70s. Instead of a real modernisation that should have included not only such a conversion plus speed upgrades (e.g. a 143-mph tilt-train to allow maximum use of a traditional alignment, with appropriate signalling upgrades, platform fencing, etc.), you get a tiny "upgrade" from the 90-mph top speed of the Mark 3s with 071-class to the (problem-fraught) Mark 4s with 201-class and 100-mph top speed...and unspecified amounts of money spent on new paint jobs...and the half-baked implementation of "mini-CTC". (And public money blown on premature retirement of the 23-year-old Mark 3s. The Mark 2Ds lasted 36 years; the steam-heated Cravens were in service for 43 years.) The average speed on Dublin-Cork trains barely breaks the 60-mph mark, which is way behind the times; doesn't look like even the 22000-class DMUs would have sufficient acceleration to defray that deficiency.

dowlingm

The Nipp wrote: »

what would 3e 'taxes and charges' be? 75c goes to each station and another useless 1.50 'administration fee' while everyone and their dog knows damn well it doesnt even cost them 0.15 of a cent to process the transaction?

If IE are charging transaction charges at the website it makes as much sense to charge a similar fee at the counter. The website costs money but so do fare sellers and TVMs and cash handling has a cost too (security and bank fees).

From the customer's perspective, better to stop dicking around with fees, make it part of the fare overhead, stop with the zero fare nonsense and get the Advertising Standards people to stop the likes of airlines and event promoters from persisting with this bogus separation of charges anyway.