Road signs again!!

NFD100

http://www.tribune.ie/news/home-news/article/2010/oct/17/road-sign-review-incomplete-after-six-years/

Road sign review incomplete after six years

Ken Foxe, Public Affairs Correspondent

No sign: delay in new manual

A €1m review of Ireland's notoriously patchy road signage has been underway for more than six years, it has been confirmed.




A comprehensive revamp of the 'Traffic Signs Manual' began in 2004 but is not now expected to be published until the end of the year. Authorities have insisted there has been no undue delay in the project and that the review required new legislation.




The existing manual – published first in 1996 – was out of date and out of line with "international best practice", a statement said.




The Department of Transport ordered a review and redrafting of rules for signage, which was sub-contracted to a consultancy firm.




Fine Gael TD Simon Coveney said: "The idea that it would take six years to come up with a traffic signs manual seems extraordinary to me.




"I can also guess why it took that long but certainly it sounds like a report that was left half-finished for a long time. If something is not ready this much time later, there are clearly problems with how it is being managed and whether it is a priority.




"This should be bread and butter for the Department of Transport, the National Roads Authority (NRA) and the local authorities involved.




"It is something that needs updating. While the signage on motorways is of a very high quality, there is still major confusion over speed limit signage around the country."




The NRA confirmed it had hired a consultant to carry out the review, with that work overseen by a steering group. A statement said: "The update included a very significant review and upgrade of [a chapter on] ... signs for roadworks to take into account new health and safety legislation and much-enhanced safety measures that have been developed."




The review of signage at roadworks was the most complicated part of the work and a first revision of it was published in November 2006.




Almost two years of feedback from city councils, county councils, the NRA and other bodies saw another draft prepared in October 2008.




A final draft of the document was then prepared and it is understood a final version is due for publication later this year.




A statement said: "The update also included significant enhancements of the section on directional signage, to bring the manual up to date with best international practice, with considerable emphasis on overhead gantry signage on motorways and dual carriageways.




"A chapter on variable message signs which was not covered in the previous manual is also included in the updated manual."




A spokesman for the NRA said: "This project was a requirement of the Department of Transport. There is an existing traffic manual and this is simply a project to update the existing one."




It said that the cost of the project so far had come to €956,800, mainly made up of professional fees and printing costs.




The statement said: "It should be noted that a typical timeframe for a complete review of a traffic signs manual in other jurisdictions is usually in the order of five to 10 years."

October 17, 2010 - Sunday Tribune

wellbutty

We don't need expensive manuals, we need common sense and an order to each local authority to get their county fixed.

Distance signs in miles on national routes, roadworks for works completed years ago, inconsistent colours/shapes, up to 20 signs at a fork, advertisement signs without permission being sought, big green distance signs on national routes half overgrown by a ditch.

Consultants are not needed, just some cop on and a bit of effort by the councils.

limklad

The problem of road signs in this country is so bad that it will take a decade to write a report. What do people expect. The problem with poor roads signs is huge. There is no standardisation in this country when it comes to placement or design as the design is changing all the time. We have no money to replace poor ones, we have to pay for the Anglo/Banks mess for several decades.

Anyone ever see the thing where James May met up with 1 of the people whop designed the road sign rules for the UK?

It was herself and another guy, and they did the whole thing themselves. No input from multiple sources, just did what seemed logical and it was drafted in law

Even something like "why are place names not in capitals on the signs" answer was "people are more used to reading lower case....it takes a moment to recognise a placename in normal case, whereas it'll take a second or two to make it out if its capitalised on a sign that might have placenames for 5-6 other locations

It's logic Jim, but not as we (the Irish Govt) know it

Road-Hog

wellbutty wrote: »

We don't need expensive manuals, we need common sense and an order to each local authority to get their county fixed.

Distance signs in miles on national routes, roadworks for works completed years ago, inconsistent colours/shapes, up to 20 signs at a fork, advertisement signs without permission being sought, big green distance signs on national routes half overgrown by a ditch.

Consultants are not needed, just some cop on and a bit of effort by the councils.

Why bother with 'rules of the road manual' either, sure isn't driving all about common sense, same for planning abolish all the planning acts and associated regulations.......!!

Jayuu

Deleted User wrote: »

Anyone ever see the thing where James May met up with 1 of the people whop designed the road sign rules for the UK?

It was herself and another guy, and they did the whole thing themselves. No input from multiple sources, just did what seemed logical and it was drafted in law

Even something like "why are place names not in capitals on the signs" answer was "people are more used to reading lower case....it takes a moment to recognise a placename in normal case, whereas it'll take a second or two to make it out if its capitalised on a sign that might have placenames for 5-6 other locations

It's logic Jim, but not as we (the Irish Govt) know it

Reminds me of this!
Stop Sign designed by committee

marmurr1916

Could they not just have copied the UK's manual, with minor changes to the rules to allow for the fonts used on Irish signs?

wellbutty

Road-Hog wrote: »

Why bother with 'rules of the road manual' either, sure isn't driving all about common sense, same for planning abolish all the planning acts and associated regulations.......!!

My point is that this stuff is already written, it only needs application and a lack of laziness. How can you have a permanent "Icy Road" sign in the sunniest region of Ireland? I've been in the Alps and not seen such signs.

Here's why the German in-laws slag me:

icdg

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Could they not just have copied the UK's manual, with minor changes to the rules to allow for the fonts used on Irish signs?

Er, that is exactly how the original Traffic Signs Manual was developed! Even the chapter numbers are the same.

The fonts used on Irish road signs are exactly the same fonts, Transport and Motorway, that are used on UK road signs. The difference is in how we use them - they use mixed case, we use mixed case italics for Irish and ALL CAPS for English. (In Scotland they use colour to disabiguate between Gaelic and English. In Wales they don't bother disabiguating between Welsh and English at all...).

The reason its taking them so long is that, since December 2005, the NRA have been tinkering with directional signs. Before that they more less had been the same since 1994 when the Guildford Rules (patching of destinations) was introduced but the NRA decided to have a play with them on the South Eastern Motorway section and re-invented the wheel. Unfortunately they managed to invent signage that actually encouraged people to stay in the right hand lane (as if Irish drivers NEEDED encouragement to do that!). Rather than admit they were wrong and revert to the original UK-style design, they then needed to come up with another new design of gantry signage, which took them till mid-2007. They've been tinkering with the signs ever since (although nowhere near as radically) and no two schemes have been signed exactly the same.

Our signage is still, in general, based on the UK Warboys Committee designs of 1965, as indeed it has been since 1977. Its just, that with motorway signs in particular, we've deviated quite a bit in the past five years.

slinky2000

another famous one in Limerick


Enough Signs? by slinky2000, on Flickr

icdg

icdg wrote: »

Er, that is exactly how the original Traffic Signs Manual was developed! Even the chapter numbers are the same.

Our signage is still, in general, based on the UK Warboys Committee designs of 1965, as indeed it has been since 1977. Its just, that with motorway signs in particular, we've deviated quite a bit in the past five years.

One major diversion has been the idea of using the background colour of the road the sign leads to rather than the road the sign is on, drive the N/M6 past Athlone and you'll get the full monty.

Blue, green, green, white, green, green, blue It aint warboys!

etchyed

wellbutty wrote: »

We don't need expensive manuals, we need common sense and an order to each local authority to get their county fixed.

Distance signs in miles on national routes, roadworks for works completed years ago, inconsistent colours/shapes, up to 20 signs at a fork, advertisement signs without permission being sought, big green distance signs on national routes half overgrown by a ditch.

Consultants are not needed, just some cop on and a bit of effort by the councils.

Let me get this straight. You want to rely on local authorities to "cop on" and have "common sense" and responsibility for the signs in their areas. But you see no need to have a manual telling how they're supposed to do so consistently. Recipe for disaster...

You're spouting populist nonsense IMO and I'd imagine you'd be the first to complain about a lack of cop on if all of the signs in different counties were difficult to understand because of inconsistency.

wellbutty

etchyed wrote: »

Let me get this straight. You want to rely on local authorities to "cop on" and have "common sense" and responsibility for the signs in their areas. But you see no need to have a manual telling how they're supposed to do so consistently. Recipe for disaster...

You're spouting populist nonsense IMO and I'd imagine you'd be the first to complain about a lack of cop on if all of the signs in different counties were difficult to understand because of inconsistency.

I'll say it again, we have the signs, we have the manuals indicating the road type each colour is to be used for...they're just not being applied with common sense.

If you are/were working in the council, would you need a manual to tell you not to put up a permanent "icy road" sign? If you were passing every day on your rounds and saw construction-related signs going back years or signs in miles, would you try to find time (in your not-so-busy council schedule) to rectify it/notify some one about it or would you wait for a million quid manual to tell us to use blue signs on motorways, green on national routes etc? If it's the latter then I can see why we are where we are.

I think that certain warning signs are necessary, those "Icy road" signs for example are usually placed where ice is likely to form frequently in winter before anywhere else, you could be driving along a clear road and suddenly be caught out by this one icy section.

The same could be said for the "road liable to flooding" signs.

Empire o de Sun

As one who has use the old 1996 TSM before, it was an ok document, but not consistent, and not always easy to follow.

To make sure that all signs are done the same, and to improve competition by sign makers/designers, all working drawings should be released free of charge on the internet. And not kept as some sensitive piece of secretive government info. It will save the state more money in the long run. This includes release of the fonts too.

By working drawings I mean all drawings for symbols, fonts etc. detailing how they are exactly to look.

From my experience ireland sometimes uses the uk working drawings but not always, if you look closely at a no overtaking sign, the cars look like they were drawn by some kid in kindergarten.

Have a full set of warning and regulatory signs, there are too many made up signs in Ireland, partly cos none officially exist.

Give all the numbers for all the signs, RUS 001 etc. instead of have to refer to Fig. X.X 1996 TSM. Is it that important to keep this info secret.

Make the signs legally binding, in that, the sign is only legal if it is designed to spec, and exists in the TSM or amendments.

Finally, (from my experience in Germany) all traffic signage has to be approved by the relevant authority. You send the drawings and they have to sign and stamp them.

Empire o de Sun

saw this on google maps street view.

http://maps.google.ie/?ie=UTF8&ll=53.211122,-6.70342&spn=0.014547,0.045447&z=15&layer=c&cbll=53.211004,-6.70341&panoid=sjTMlPSzKcu-U6t37-uMIg&cbp=12,205.52,,1,4.79

Amtmann

Can anyone tell me what this unusual yellow sign means?

JohnC.

Certainly not in the Rules of the Road. Google Goggles suggested a nautical hazard sign, which is unlikely. Unless flooding is really bad there

Irish and Proud

Furet wrote: »

Can anyone tell me what this unusual yellow sign means?

It's usually one of a range of symbols used in the UK to way-mark traffic diversions (usually in the event of roadworks). However I didn't know that these were used in Ireland.

Roryhy

Furet wrote: »

Can anyone tell me what this unusual yellow sign means?

Im pretty sure it means alternative route. Id say it was described on an earlier sign as being another way(maybe longer) of getting to somewhere. There used to be 1 of these on the M7/M9, i forget where it was leading to?....maybe Athy? Rameire might remember better, he's from that neck of the woods if i remember correctly.

slinky2000

First one I've ever seen int he south! They're everywhere int he North/UK

Roryhy

Roryhy wrote: »

Im pretty sure it means alternative route. Id say it was described on an earlier sign as being another way(maybe longer) of getting to somewhere. There used to be 1 of these on the M7/M9, i forget where it was leading to?....maybe Athy? Rameire might remember better, he's from that neck of the woods if i remember correctly.

Well assuming they have the same meaning, they're alternative route markers. If the motorway is closed for any reason, a sign will be opened up to display
"M? closed Follow (symbol)"

Jayuu

For many years before the bypasses of Kildare and Monasterevin there used to be signs like this just before the M7/M9 break suggesting an alternative route to Port Laoise via Athy and Stradbally. The idea is that you follow the symbol on subsequent signs. It can also be a filled diamond as well.

Where is this one? Just noticed the sign after it for the Limerick Tunnel! I would suggest that its for an alternative route to the M7 for non-motorway drivers.

murphaph

Jayuu wrote: »

Where is this one? Just noticed the sign after it for the Limerick Tunnel! I would suggest that its for an alternative route to the M7 for non-motorway drivers.

I'd say it's likely an alternative route to follow in the event of a tunnel closure. (the tunnel will have to close for maintenance even if there are no incidents)

etchyed

murphaph wrote: »

I'd say it's likely an alternative route to follow in the event of a tunnel closure. (the tunnel will have to close for maintenance even if there are no incidents)

I thought that but the sign behind it says "Shannon Tunnel scheme ends here" and it's exit 2 so I presume this sign is on the eastbound carriageway (away from the tunnel).

Amtmann

etchyed wrote: »

I thought that but the sign behind it says "Shannon Tunnel scheme ends here" and it's exit 2 so I presume this sign is on the eastbound carriageway (away from the tunnel).

Nope, it's on the approach to the tunnel on both sides.

etchyed

Furet wrote: »

Nope, it's on the approach to the tunnel on both sides.

Ah, so I take it the Ends Here sign is for exiting traffic? Silly me.

Jayuu

murphaph wrote: »

I'd say it's likely an alternative route to follow in the event of a tunnel closure. (the tunnel will have to close for maintenance even if there are no incidents)

Good point. I'd say that's exactly what it is.

Danno

http://maps.google.ie/?ie=UTF8&layer=c&cbll=53.011775,-7.14184&panoid=-7qx6tkQO0eXddq03AW4VQ&cbp=12,219.41,,1,4.52&ll=53.011814,-7.142015&spn=0,0.043774&z=15

Under the Laoise in Portlaoise you can just about see where there was a Yellow diamond symbol before Monasterevin was bypassed.

murphaph

Danno wrote: »

http://maps.google.ie/?ie=UTF8&layer=c&cbll=53.011775,-7.14184&panoid=-7qx6tkQO0eXddq03AW4VQ&cbp=12,219.41,,1,4.52&ll=53.011814,-7.142015&spn=0,0.043774&z=15

Under the Laoise in Portlaoise you can just about see where there was a Yellow diamond symbol before Monasterevin was bypassed.

Also visible here in Athy.

I clearly remember the diamond and alternative route symbol on the M7 before the diverge for the M9. That fork sign is now gone, having ben replaced with gantry signage in the last couple of years.