Improving Pressure in Gravity Shower without pump

stuntman

Hi,
Most discussion boards mention use of pumps to increase pressure, but I was wondering if there are other ways of increasing the pressure.

I have a 4 bed( relatively newly built house - 2005) + extension - so I have 3 showers in all 2 of them are electric instant heat power shower (trition T10, both cannot be operated simultaneously). The family bath as a gravity based shower with manual mixer. the taps pressure every where is quite good, it is the pressure in gravity shower that is the issue, not that I am looking for exceptional pressure like the power shower, but just a bit more would do.

The gravity shower seems to have decent flow, but no pressure, when I remove the shower head, and open the shower mixer (manual) tap, water simply "falls" down the shower arm, not jut out and then fall down as in other taps - bath taps below the shower head or the sink - when I open the taps in the bath tub in the same bathroom as the shower, it is nearly a flood.

The cold water tank is about 4 feet (from the water surface in the cold water tank in loft) above the showerhead .

I have room to raise cold water tank by no more then 1 ft, would this be enough to increase the pressure ? would it be worthwhile ?
I would think, if there were pressure enough to make the water jut out a little from the shower arm, it should provide just about enough shiwer pressure .

Any pointers on the alternatives ? I am reluctant to install booster pump if I can help it, more points of failure, extra electrics and having to upgrade to a larger hot water tank.

Thanks for your time.

cnocbui

Only a pump or raising the height of the tank by a lot, will likely provide a solution (assuming there is no mains pressure to speak of). As raising the tank by a lot would seem impractical, that leaves the pump option.

stuntman

There is good mains pressure,there are discussions in UK forums around venturi showers (trevi boost showers), but that would mean the cost will end up being the same as installing a pump. But then again there have been lots of issues around venturi showers.

If I install a pump, what is the lowest rated pump ? I only need a 0.5 bar pressure, so I do not empty my hot water tank in 15 min !! can you fit flow reducing values/washers when you connect the pump ?

Joey the lips

If your shower valve operates at 0.5 bar its considered high pressure in ireland. That will be your problem. You will need a pump. There is no if's or but's on this one.

Its a problem i keeping pointing out to people who buy online from england... There low pressure is not our low pressure.

stuntman

Has anyone installed the single outlet pump, like Mira Enhance ?
http://www.qssupplies.co.uk/Brand/Mira/Mira-Enhance-Shower-Pump.pdf

This seems just the right one for the job, just enough pressure with low flow rates of 10 l/min ?

This is to be fitted after the mixer.

Mike2006

If you raise your tank by a foot you will get an icreased in pressure of about 0.03 Bar...

Not really noticeable for the effort...

Pump would be the best option.

Mike.

Joey the lips

stuntman wrote: »

Has anyone installed the single outlet pump, like Mira Enhance ?
http://www.qssupplies.co.uk/Brand/Mira/Mira-Enhance-Shower-Pump.pdf

This seems just the right one for the job, just enough pressure with low flow rates of 10 l/min ?

This is to be fitted after the mixer.

You cant do that you will get cavatation most likely. The pump cannot send any more water than the valve releases through....


With due respect your only answer is a 1,5 bar pump or take out the shower valve. No other get you there spare will do the job.

But i get the feeling your determined on this one to find an alternate answer.

Sparkpea

Even a shower with built in pump like aquastream

Joey the lips

Sparkpea wrote: »

Even a shower with built in pump like aquastream

He has the shower. Thats the problem. If he is going to do away with the shower that changes the situation. An aquastream is a brilliant shower. Its generally bought as An aquastream thermostatic power shower and it cost you about 400 euro. It has a built in pump and it relies on a store of hot cylinder water and cold tank water.

stuntman

Thanks to you all for the replies. 400 is a bit steep, and besides I would like to keep the mixer that I have currently have.

I gather Mira enhance has been discontinued:mad: I really liked it.

The alternative is to install salmender pumps, these are, from what I have read on the web, very silent pumps, the Right Twin model are available for about 150 euro, plus plumber/electritian might cost me another 150 ?
I am inclined to go with this option, will see how my budget holds up given that christmas is not too far away .

Sparkpea

stuntman wrote: »

Thanks to you all for the replies. 400 is a bit steep, and besides I would like to keep the mixer that I have currently have.

I gather Mira enhance has been discontinued:mad: I really liked it.

The alternative is to install salmender pumps, these are, from what I have read on the web, very silent pumps, the Right Twin model are available for about 150 euro, plus plumber/electritian might cost me another 150 ?
I am inclined to go with this option, will see how my budget holds up given that christmas is not too far away .

are you looking to pump just the one shower or the bath etc. as well? salamander are good pumps I would use them fairly regularly but they are a pain in the bum when it comes to the warranty and incorrect installation. They request you have 80gallons or so of storage tank water if its for more than one shower, the temperature must not exceed 60 degrees etc. so you either need to have a cylinder stat on or use a blending valve. In most cases we end up having to add another storage tank for extra stored water or else a WSP to cut the pump off when the water level gets low so it doesn't run dry.

My dads old apprentice is the salamander engineer for the north and recommends us for fixing poor installations where the pump has burnt out and cannot be serviced under warranty.

stuntman

The thing is, It really should't cost a whole lot to slightly increase the pressure, all need is about 0.25 bar or even about 5 psi at the shower head. How hard can it be ?
I have had a look at my friend's house (a slightly older house), and he has acceptable pressure, when I remove the showerhead in his bathroom, the water juts out not "falls" like it does in mine.

The difference I think is the ceiling height- his bathroom ceiling is higher (by about a foot), going by this I think raising the tank by one foot should do the job.
I spoke to a plumber who lives a few doors down where I live, he had a look and said "you would be surprised how diffrence raising it by a foot can make", and he is charging a reaonable fee for 100 eur to raise it, all extentions to pipes etc.
Also, if I lay the tank at 90 degreees to what it is how, I can get nearly 2 ft of height, so even better.

The only thing I am worried about is, what if this does not do the job ? or should I bite the bullet and go for a pump and fit some flow reducers at the shower head.

*Sigh* I am in a dilemma, the thing is I am also planning for some thing that could happen down the line(next year or maybe in 2 years time) - I may leave the country and then will be renting this house, if it is going to be shared among multiple tenents, I need it to have just enough pressue but with low flow, decent gravity can ensure that, else it would have to be a pump with flow reducer.
But a pump would mean an additional machanical/electrical appliance that could go wrong - transformer blow up, over heating, leaking joints etc .. leading to more maintainance costs.

Sparkpea

I would raise the tank as the first/cheapest/easiest option probably.


How old is your shower valve? could the cartridge be corroding/rusting which slows down the pressure and will eventually stop. Can you get access to the supply pipes to the shower e.g. if they are in the hotpress beside the shower for example to maybe run 22mm supplies from the HW tank and CW cistern to as close to the shower as possible?

I'm guessing your feeds out of the storage tank are only 22mm? 28mm also makes such a difference.

stuntman

But if after trying out the cheaper option of raising it by a foot and if still does nothing for the pressure , I would have already spent 100 euro which could go towards other alternatives.
The mixer valve is not very old, this is a relatively new house, built in 2006. This shower always had poor pressure ever since I bought in 2006 (new house).

I am thinking of cleaning the pipes and valve, access through hot press, but I will have rip the plaster board through the hotpress to get access to the mixer valve and the pipes.
Cannot say when I will get around to doing this... too much work putting back the plaster boards!!

The hot and cold water pipes to the mixer seem to comming from below the floor boards !!, the pipes are drawn hot water and cold water tank down into the floorboards in hot press and then up to bath and shower (hidden in the back wall of hot press, behind the plaster board) !! why is that ? is that a standard way to do ? apparently that is the way to do this .. have checked up a few houses built by different builder.

paddy147

Grundfos 3 bar pump,a couple of braided flexi fittings,some extra copper piping or flexi plastic plumbing pipe..................simple as that and job done.No more pi55ing about with things that will cost you money but wont work out for you.

Mike2006

Don't bother raising it a foot. As I already said, 0.03 Bar extra will be the result which is not a noticeable difference.

It would be a lot of effort for no gain. Drain tank, remove fittings, Install new support base, extend pipes, re-fit pipework, refill tank, remove airlocks.

Just my opinion.

Mike.

TouchingVirus

I agree with the lads here, the pump is your only option. We had the same problem and raised the tank to no avail. Ended up buying a 2 bar pump and installing it into the hotpress and it really is your only ticket

stuntman

Thanks Mike, I know while raising by 1 foot can give me at most 0.4 PSI , it is difficult to visualize how it translates to actual feel of the pressure, But tocuhingVirus has tried raising it by 2 foot and had no joy, that is what I wanted to know, someone actually having tried this out. But then again, having good pressure means different things to different people, it is very subjective, Some are happy with 4-5 PSI but there are others who are not that happy even with some power showers.(as I gather from some UK forums)

As I said before, I seem have good flow, but poor pressure, so even an extra 2 PSI should do the job.

I will try this out :
1. Check the pipe connectors at the mixer, clean it if necessary.
2. There is 90 degree connect in the attic from cold water tank (from plastic pipe to copper pipe going into the hot press and then to Hot water tank), I will convert this 90 degree joint to a curve join.
3. I do not know if I have high pressure mixer or low pressure mixer (but I doubt it is a high pressure mixer, or is it just a case of remove any pressure reducing devices in the mixer !!) There is no manufacturer's name on the mixer tap, so have no way to find out, everything in the house is shires, so I suspect it is shires.

If after this, it can't be improved, I will go for the pump.

But I am determined to find out why there is good shower pressure in my friend's house and not for me - both are gravity and head seems about the same.
My theory is this, why is that some houses have good gravity showers and other don't even with the same head ? That comes down to either poor quality workmanship, debris in pipes,sharp bends or worse installing high pressure mixer.

flowerific

stuntman wrote: »

Thanks to you all for the replies. 400 is a bit steep, and besides I would like to keep the mixer that I have currently have.

I gather Mira enhance has been discontinued:mad: I really liked it.

The alternative is to install salmender pumps, these are, from what I have read on the web, very silent pumps, the Right Twin model are available for about 150 euro, plus plumber/electritian might cost me another 150 ?
I am inclined to go with this option, will see how my budget holds up given that christmas is not too far away .

Hi Stuntman, I need to get a replacement booster pump for my groundfloor duplex apt. taps, loo, shower, washing machine run off pump. Do you think one of those Salmender pumps would do. I don't know the current make of my pump but it says 1.5bar.
What website did you see those prices.
I was looking at http://www.taps4less.ie/pages/search.asp?st=water+pump+booster&submit=Go
thanks

stuntman

I was looking at these UK based website, but have seen some irish website too just can't remember now, and can't seem to find it in my browser website.

I got am idea of prices and range from :
http://www.plumb-warehouse.co.uk/ishop/968/shopscr576.html

Get anti-vibration mat from these guys for the pump, keeps the noise down.

If you get it shipped, I would assume you would still be covered under manufacturer's warranty. I was speaking to a plumber only yesterday and he was saying there is pump in B&Q for 150.

Hope this helps.

Joey the lips

flowerific wrote: »

Hi Stuntman, I need to get a replacement booster pump for my groundfloor duplex apt. taps, loo, shower, washing machine run off pump. Do you think one of those Salmender pumps would do. I don't know the current make of my pump but it says 1.5bar.
What website did you see those prices.
I was looking at http://www.taps4less.ie/pages/search.asp?st=water+pump+booster&submit=Go
thanks

If your in an apartment your more than likely looking for a negative head pump rather than a positive head pump which will explain the price difference you are prob questioning. Also be very careful with salamander. I dont know why but there negative head pumps had terriable trouble in apartments. Washer Dryers are notorious for making most pumps kick in but these seemed to do it more.

However you seem to be following this thread incorrectly and have your mind made up on something so i shall leave you with it... If you need any thing else just ask,.