Old man attacks dog

Graces7

Since we came here two months ago, there have been ongoing problems with an aged neighbour who thinks he has a right of way and to invade our rented house/garden etc; there was an old right of way nearby that has long since fallen into disuse. We keep our gate locked now to keep our dogs and property safe. Locks get smashed frequently at night.

This week the problem has escalated. At the weekend we finally called the Gardai; he was spoken to and warned about the criminal damage he is causing. He promised not to bother us again. We are sure he has some degree of dementia and no memory etc of what he is doing.

Two days ago the old man came to the gate shouting abuse etc; our dogs were in the garden and of course when his voice was screaming at me, they were barking. He was aiming kicks at them and he has a crutch he was waving at them.

I went in to call the Gardai as I have been told to do now, thinking he was safe behind the gate. Heard frenzied barking and ran out; the old man had climbed the fence and was up at the house.

He took a swing at me with his crutch, missed, and hit the collie, then started laying into our dogs - both rescued and the collie massively abused in the past. He caught her a fearful blow across her side and she yelped in pain; I took them in immediately.

The Gardai were again called. not the local man as before ( this is a rural area) but two in a patrol car. They are taking it seriously this time thankfully. The old man lives alone, apparently in a house that is falling about his ears and with rats there. They will contact his family.

Someone has said that had the collie when he hit her had bitten him she would have been out down? She is soooooooooo "aggressive" that she turned tail and ran; when the Gardai came the wee dog almost loved them to pieces; they had asked on the 'phone what breed the dogs were.

I had rather he had beaten me than our beloved dogs; it has taken years of our loving care to banish the look of fear from the collie's eyes and now it is back.

We feel sorry for the old man but this now has gone too far. And can it really be true that had she bitten him they would have put her down? They made no attempt to bite him; barking was all they were doing. As is their job.

And yes, there is a warning sign on the gate, but this old man is way past seeing that.

Tranceypoo

First of all you poor thing you sound like you're still in shock. I would not worry/think about what might have happened if the dogs had bitten, they didn't, so don't torture yourself. I would concentrate on getting your dogs confidence back and making sure they are ok and if it happens again that he is standing at your gate, get your dogs in immediately, if not sooner. Hopefully that man will get the help he requires.

belongtojazz

Oh no I'm so sorry to hear what has happened

Hopefully what has happened hasn't undone the good work you have done with your collie.

olaola

I'm sorry that your poor dog had to undergo that event. But this is really more about the old man than anything else.
He's obviously not in a fit mental state to deal with the warnings, and how he is reacting to you and your dogs is not something that will be stopped by a Garda visit. Does he have family that you can contact?

seamus

Tranceypoo wrote: »

I would not worry/think about what might have happened if the dogs had bitten, they didn't, so don't torture yourself. I would concentrate on getting your dogs confidence back and making sure they are ok and if it happens again that he is standing at your gate, get your dogs in immediately, if not sooner. Hopefully that man will get the help he requires.

Agreed. The man sounds mentally ill, so hopefully this will be the trigger to get him some help, have him sectioned if necessary.

You've helped the collie before, you will help her again - she trusts you and she knows you keep her safe. She's probably still in shock like you are, so give her a few days of TLC and she'll probably be back to her old self.

Very sorry to hear that this has happened, you never seem to catch a break!

On the biting thing, it's not as simple as bite = put down.

I'll try explain this as briefly as possible. For starters, there's no "automatic put down" rule in place. Your dog cannot be seized and destroyed on the spot. Where a dog has caused damage to a person or property, the warden can seize the dog and take you to court. In court, it is up to the judge to decide if the dog is legally dangerous, at which point he can make an order for the destruction of the animal.

"Legally dangerous" is the important term there. It's a lot of hassle for the warden to take you to court. He generally won't do it if he doesn't believe that the dog is dangerous - if you make your case to the warden that the dog was defending itself from attack (especially on private land) then he is likely to release the dog to you.

Just for everyone's future reference, and this cannot be stressed enough - If the warden seizes your animal, do not under any circumstances sign the dog over the to the warden. If you do, it's game over and the dog will be destroyed regardless of its breed or temperament.

joyce2009

I'm so sorry to hear what has happened to your poor dogs it must have been terrifing for you and them ,, hopefully the gaurds will look into the mans situation,,but if you think their might be a dementia issue and he is living in squallid home you might give the local health nurse a call she would aslo be able to contact his family and maybe get him some help and he'll let you be.

Graces7

To all; my heartfelt thanks.

Yes, this has been an ongoing problem and we have been unfailingly patient and compassionate.

He has crossed a line now of course. The first Garda who came out was a relation of everyone in the area; rural places are like this. and rightly he sought to calm the situation down; he said he warned the old man about the criminal damage.

We raised the query re senility, but the Garda brushed that aside, thinking the old man would as he promised "not bother us any more."

Which is what the landlord is doing also. Because the man IS old and all respect that.

The dogs are better; even had their usual squabble earlier! I will hear that blow and yelp of pain for months to come. Poor girl; and I am proud of them that they did not attack and came in as soon as I called them to me.

You realise how much you love them when they are threatened; they have a total innocence don't they? A dependency and a trust.

It is up to the Gardai now; the two who came out this time were more.. professional somehow; one had a bullet proof vest on. Hope he will not need it. We have stressed that we seek to make an official complaint now and they assured us that this is in the system now. So we have typed out a detailled statement ready for that.

The Gardai say they will contact his family also; and yes, he needs to be taken care of away from there now. We know there is a nephew who is hoping to claim the large farm.

Maybe when they see how he is living?

It is now in the hands of the Gardai. There was talk last week of getting the geriatric social worker out to him so they may well do that now he has made an assault.

And yes, we are jumpy. Being called Satan, the devil and a bitch is interesting indeed...

Violence is a horrible thing, especially around your home. We have settled here and have no intention of being forced out; the old man said that that is what he was after, but we know he is sick.

The landlord has cleared almost an acre of land for our use so we can grow food and flowers and herbs to sell. And we run the dogs in the fields; it is perfect for them and for us.

And we are making good progress at the farmers markets here also.

Meanwhile as it is seeing us that sparks him off, we are making a back exit from the garden to the fields... Easy to do here thankfully. They use single strand electric fencing for the cattle. So we will now come and go invisibly.

Again all thanks for the compassion here. It helps so much; and thanks also re the "not automatic"; when they asked on the phone what breed the dogs were I knew what they were seeking.

Cherry Blossom

OP, I'm not sure how much power the Guardi have in a case like this or if it will make much difference. If it were me I'd also contact social services, tell them the whole story and try to get someone from their department out to the man for a visit. It sounds like he genuinely needs help and isn't getting it.

seamus

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

OP, I'm not sure how much power the Guardi have in a case like this or if it will make much difference.

Well they do in reality. It's a standard case of trespass, damage to property and threatening behaviour.

The only problem is that any court case would be months down the line and would likely go easy on a very old man.

Social services are a good idea because they can act much more quickly.

sionnaic

you poor thing - you just seem to have the worst luck with neighbours!

What a terrible experience - I'm glad the Gardaí are helping. I'd second what the others are saying about contacting the health nurse and also if you can contact a social worker. If you can make a few phonecalls or emails just start firing them off and see who gets back to you. Sounds like a horrible situation with the nephew waiting like a vulture in the wings for the inheritance but obviously not giving a sh*t about the poor man in the meantime. It's very sad.

It doesn't excuse the abuse you're suffering though! Awful. I can only imagine how angry I would be at anyone who hurt my two pups...unholy wrath probably comes close. Given your past experiences with people in positions of authority I can completely understand your fear over your two dogs.

I hope the situation will be resolved soon for everyone's sake.

LillyVanilli

Graces7 wrote: »

Since we came here two months ago,....... there was an old right of way nearby that has long since fallen into disuse. We keep our gate locked now.

Sorry to hear this is happening to you. Have you blocked off the right of way or is the gate leading into your property?
A family member of mine had an old right of way beside their house that was disused and overgrown. They put a gate on it and world war 3 started. Locals that used the lane in their childhood were up in arms, even though they didnt use it anymore, they wanted the option. Do you think that could be his issue?

Graces7

seamus wrote: »

Well they do in reality. It's a standard case of trespass, damage to property and threatening behaviour.

The only problem is that any court case would be months down the line and would likely go easy on a very old man.

Social services are a good idea because they can act much more quickly.

After his Friday night rampage, when he cut through an electric cable, which thankfully was a ground cable from the electric fence, smashed two padlocks etc, etc, I called in at the Garda barracks on the way home from market. Our car is out there .... Man with large?? bolt cutters?? Imagination is too vivid.
He also threatened to smash the gate with his tractor;; he doesn';t have one thankfully.

They are seemingly used to this kind of thing and said they would get the geriatric social worker out to him on Monday. The local Garda said no to that, as he thought )wrongly) that the man is "healthy" and we hoped that his warning would avail.

It became police business when he started attacking in person more than ever and I know that they have some powers to act.

We are very aware that we are new here in a close knit community and we want to be here many years. We do not want charges pressed, just that this stop now.
That may be enough to make them get him into care. Please God so.

We have had Altzheimers in the family ; looking in this old one'e eyes, he is not "there"; he is living in the past.

It is a matter for the Gardai just now; we are waiting and keeping safe; and we have instructions to call the Gardai if he shows up here again.

So we shall see what they do; meanwhile we now have a total of five padlocks and leaving home takes quite some doing;).

The local ones eg our landlord, seem helpless to know what to do. We even contacted the priest, who averred that there is no vandalism in HIS parish.. Hmmmm

Lifting an old one from his home is a serious stuff; and we don;t envy the unit that gets him:rolleyes:. He is foul mouthed and aggressive. Stubborn as a goat too.

The nephew may well have tried to help and been turfed out; we know the old one has cattle there and wonder re their care.

Someone here said that if they had been here when he hit the dogs, the old one may not have lived to tell the tale.

Ah but 'tis a lovely spot in the autumn sun, and the dogs love the fields. Worth fighting for.

Graces7

LillyVanilli wrote: »

Sorry to hear this is happening to you. Have you blocked off the right of way or is the gate leading into your property?
A family member of mine had an old right of way beside their house that was disused and overgrown. They put a gate on it and world war 3 started. Locals that used the lane in their childhood were up in arms, even though they didnt use it anymore, they wanted the option. Do you think that could be his issue?

Sheesh; and yes, this is the root of it here. We checked all this of course. The old right of way was up the laneway to our house and then across an old boreen to his house. It was granted when that was the only means of access to his house. A right of way HAS to exit in YOUR property and it has when granted to be the only access to your house. It also HAS to be used eg twice a year to be retained.

That was so up to around twenty years ago when they made a lanway directly to his house from the road. After that no one used the boreen and it is totally impassable. I mean totally. The old man claims he walks it every day and the other day he duly set off to walk home that way. He didn't even know where the entrance was and then after a few yards got stuck and had to break through into the landlord's field.

We had agreed with the landlord that he be allowed to walk it ie walk at the back of the house, turn round and walk back ( :rolleyes:) twice a year.

And three times now he has agreed to that and had promised "not to bother them any more." That lasted around 48 hours each time.

So we have been reasonable; he would have had to come to the gate and ask.

But he is incapable of keeping any such arrangement and as we told him, we cannot trust him now to be near us. he also shouted that he OWNS the property. So this is not longer about the right of way. The house was empty two years and the door was off and clearly he was in and out all the time and in the garden. Maybe trying for squatters rights? He has been in over the fence and prowling so many nights.

Oh he also has three other laneways that lead to his house.

We have the need for privacy etc and to keep our dogs safe.

And it does not give anyone a right to cause damage and assault.

magentas

Poor man obviously isn't well and needs help which I hope he gets soon.

But you cannot continue like this. Your priority has to be for yourself and OH and dogs safety.

Sounds so typical of country folk (I'm from country myself BTW!) but they can be so backward and think ignorance is the best course of action (or inaction IMO) I mean this in relation to local guard/neighbours

very sad that his family don't step in and DO something, this can't esculate or someone may end up hurt

It's a very sensitive situation but I have a collie myself and don't know how I'd react if someone went to strike him:mad:

I know Seamus said a bite doesn't mean an automatic put-down (which I learned from his posts in another thread and am very grateful for his knowledge;)) but that seems to be the general consensus and you could feel under pressure to have her PTS if she did bite and that's not something you want to go through

For what it's worth I admire the way you're handling it

Hope it all works out for you

Sigma Force

You totally should be proud of your dogs and yourself for getting them to the stage they are at.
The gardai will probably contact social services, family may or may not get involved if he's as bad as that and difficult to handle he probably needs professional help. So if nothing happens re family you could probably contact social services or mabey a charity that helps people in his situation.

There are a few charities that help older people but they seem to be more helping them with shopping, keeping them company etc. but this man is probably too difficult because of his illness.
So perhaps social services could even advise on who to contact if the family don't turn up to care for him.

Steve30x

If somebody hit my dog it would be me the gardai would be called on. I wouldnt stand for it. Just thinking about it right now is getting me wound up.

Wolfe Tone

I feel really sorry for the old man. He needs help.

Graces7

Next instalment of this soap opera..

( I am more upset now than at any stage as this is causing stress to so many others now)

All has been quiet; for the first Sunday since we came here, no invasion. Still tense and jumpy but the dogs are fine; collie;s eyes have stopped that awful jerkie stress movement.

On Monday the garda came by to check that all was well.. He said that the old man has promised he will not bother us again. I said that h has said that five times already and is incapable of keeping to that.

This garda was one of the second call men; he looked a bit puzzled and as he had not seen the boreen, we invited him to view.. He wondered where he was being taken as the back of the house is wild and overgrown.

When we showed him the boreen; never saw a jaw drop before, and he swore under his breath as he gazed at the mass of brambles etc.

He said then that the old man told him he drives his car through the boreen every day; I thought at first he said cow, which made it even funnier. In its day, it was only ever a footpath.
" Now I know what I am talking about I will go and talk to him again, " he said.. I asked re the nephew; it is two nephews apparently. They say that they have tried to deal with him and that he is very set in his ways. The garda was angry of course... quietly so. Old man has tried to make them look fools.

This morning saw the landlord banging at the door. This is a very unsophisticated farmer. We have never bothered him re eg registering the tenancy. He has spent a lot of money on this place and been good to us.

he is very, very upset indeed. Last night around 8.30 pm saw two neighbours/nephews??? ( thick accent) knocking at his door. The old man is saying that when he came here, he fell off the top of the gate and I set the dogs on him. Dog bit him on the ankle and he had to go to the doctor for an anti-tetanus.

Landlord cannot cope with all this; old man is demanding a key and to come in whenver he wants etc; I think they have given in to all his demands in the past for a quiet life.

Then of course I started worrying re the dogs; IF he were believed.. I know; that was a week ago now.

Landlord used words I didn't know he knew; they all know what this old man is like and no one knows what to do about him; the nephews live just up the road by the way.

We have been getting informal legal advice all along; now something really has to be done legally.

Seamus; yes we felt and feel sorry for the old man; but this is vicious lies now that could endanger us and our dogs. Either he knows what he is doing and is culpable or he does not know what he is doing etc. Clearly the gardai have told him to stay away so now he is causing all the trouble he can.

As someone here has said of course; had he really been to the dr, the gardai would have been round re the dogs.. as it is we made a written report immediately.

So now once again to our solicitor as this has gone too far.

It is causing problems with our tenancy of course.

Asphyxia

I would feel the exact same way if it happened to me nobody has the right to come on to your property and hurt you or your pets, you did the right thing calling the guards and bringing the poor thing inside.

joyce2009

i really feel sorry for you and the stress you must be feeling ,,stay strong and i hope it all works out for you..

Plek Trum

Phew - what a right pickle! For what its worth, you have behaved yourselves impeccably and correctly from the start. Much more so than some people who's patience would be breaking at this point.

You dont deserve this hassle and lies, especially when the landlord is now being dragged into it. The second Gardai seems reasonable and in touch with the situation. If the landlord is now being dragged into it, perhaps the Gardai could speak with him as an independent third party about whats going on and the 'official' assessment of the situation? Casual, either landlord can ring him or visa versa?

Remember that nobody has any right to threaten, abuse or intimidate you or your animals. I wish you well, hope everything works out.

Graces7

Plek Trum wrote: »

Phew - what a right pickle! For what its worth, you have behaved yourselves impeccably and correctly from the start. Much more so than some people who's patience would be breaking at this point.

You dont deserve this hassle and lies, especially when the landlord is now being dragged into it. The second Gardai seems reasonable and in touch with the situation. If the landlord is now being dragged into it, perhaps the Gardai could speak with him as an independent third party about whats going on and the 'official' assessment of the situation? Casual, either landlord can ring him or visa versa?

Remember that nobody has any right to threaten, abuse or intimidate you or your animals. I wish you well, hope everything works out.

Thank you. We came here for peace and privacy... :rolleyes: And there was nothing in the lease re any alleged right of way; we are getting in touch with the agent now. My patience is fine; but there are health and other issues that are at breaking point. He seems to have erupted in a new way because the gardai have warned him off? And of course it is a week since the non-bite... everyone has bent over hackwards trying to sort this out.. waiting to hear from our solicitor now. it is the family who should act of course, but this is Ireland.

When we were first here, way back, we visited an old lady in her home; she was sitting on her armchair and the smell hit you even with the door open.

The way Social services' Home Help were dealing with her incontinence was to put a receptacle under her chair and let it leak through.

Her neighbours were scared to intervene lest she lose the home help provision of an hour a day Monday to Friday.

The Church sent a taxi every Saturday to take her to Mass.

When she got an infection and was in hospital and we said, best place, the neighbours were incensed. She wanted to stay in her home and she was fine there they said.

So what chance an old man who can walk half the night... Even though he apparently has no proper water supply and the roof is full of holes. HIS choice it seems.

Well it seems they have stopped him from invading here?

FarmerGreen

Uncalled for.

Graces7

Grace,
Please dont respond-Just report the post and let us look after it.

Tranceypoo

Oh you poor things, as another poster said, you have acted with great restraint in all of this, I just hope it gets resolved sooner rather than later. Are you keeping notes of incidents, dates when they happen etc and maybe even try filming on your phone if possible? Any back up you have to prove your case would be worthwhile I would think. Like I say I hope it gets resolved and you get some peace & quiet, which is not much to ask in the grand scheme of things!