Immigration and Sham Marriages

southsiderosie

The Irish Times ran a very interesting op-ed today about sham marriages between poor Latvian women and poor non-EU migrants:

IRELAND HAS become the main destination for young and vulnerable Latvian women, lured by the promise of just one or two thousand euro to marry a Pakistani or an Indian man, also poor and wanting to relocate to an English-speaking European Union state. A Latvian bride brings with her the tantalising prospect of EU citizenship.

Why Ireland? The key to this “cash ‘n’ marry” problem is a lack of laws or serious checks against such disingenuous weddings.

Ireland is a particular draw for men from the Indian sub-continent who speak English. The women are generally from Latvia, one of the poorest members of the EU, and a significant number are destitute.

<snip>

To address this problem a change to the law is needed, in Ireland and the EU.

It is not illegal in Ireland to enter into a “sham” marriage or even to organise one for financial gain.

New proposed immigration legislation sadly avoids tackling the issue. In other countries – including Germany, France, Belgium – the problem is tackled both before and after the wedding...Here the Garda Síochána can only tackle the problem indirectly, by targeting other offences such as bigamy, false documentation or being in the State illegally....<snip>

A wedding ceremony just to gain residency status makes a mockery of marriage and immigration laws. In the long term, the problem may diminish as the standard of living in Latvia and other member states increases. In the short term, however, urgent action is needed to close the legal loophole. That can only mean two things: a change in the law and much more careful monitoring by our enforcement agencies.

Full Article: "Ireland must take action to stop sham marriages"

Given how strict immigration officials are about proving the validity of marriages conducted outside of Ireland, it's pretty shocking that there are few to no mechanisms to check the validity of foreign marriages when people are already within the country. That said, it seems that whatever changes are made to the law have to happen at an EU level, otherwise the problem will just shift to less stringent countries.

I also have to wonder about how widespread of a problem this is; I haven't heard of any cases like the one in the UK involving the vicar who performed over 300 sham marriages.

Finally, part of me wonders how big of a deal we should really make about "sham" marriages. There are plenty of people who make very instrumental decisions about marriage: they do it for financial reasons, or for tax reasons, etc. I sense that this would seem less objectionable if one of the parties involved was Irish, but since the laws regarding movement and the right to work apply to EU member states in general, this seems like a bit of a moot point. If anyone should be annoyed by this, it seems like it should be the EU states like Germany and Belgium who are much more strict about granting residence permits to foreign spouses.

donkey balls

ah these sham marriages have been going on for years in the UK,i remember my girl friend&her friends at the time getting asked(Austrailian passport holder)would she be interested in a dodgy marriage.
So that the person from the indian subcontinent could gain access to Austrailia,Sure with the way our country is going maybe i should marry my EX to gain entry into Austrailia:D.

jock101

Well, that what you get when you believe Gombeen politicians and vote for EU treaty's, like the Nice and Lisbon treaty's! Close border controls and relax freedom of movement, what do you expect!

southsiderosie

jock101 wrote: »

Well, that what you get when you believe Gombeen politicians and vote for EU treaty's, like the Nice and Lisbon treaty's! Close border controls and relax freedom of movement, what do you expect!

Yes, but Belgium and Germany participated in the same process of free movement within the EU, and they do not have the same problem.

In addition, Ireland opted to immediately allow accession states entry into their labor market - most continental European countries did not.

TBH, it does not seem like the Irish government thought about many of the ramifications of European integration, most notably when it comes to 1) open borders and 2) a shared currency.

Callan57

I would have thought that the number of men from a predominantly muslin country opting to marry someone from a poverty stricken, former communist and certainly not muslin east European country would surely have raised a few eyebrows. Not meaning to be racist or sexist about this but young Latvian women are not exactly what a Pakastani mamma would consider suitable wifely material!

The interesting thing about the article in IT is that even when the Latvian officials point out a relatively easy and straight forward way of dealing with this issue the Irish officials sit on their hands! The Latvians apparently wanted the Irish officials to insist on a letter from the Latvian embassy confirming that the person was free to marry ... this would have given them an opportunity to at least be sure their citizen was acting of her own free will & understood what she was doing. Reminded me a bit of the old 'letter of freedom' you used to get from your Parish Priest before you could marry outside your parish ... don't know if that still applies for RC Church weddings.

donkey balls

when i did best man for my mate i had to sign a form from what i can remember to state that he was not married to another person or ever was,his misses also had to get her sister to do the same.

OhNoYouDidn't

The overwhelming majority of marriages in the world today are done for economic reasons. Coercion is one thing, but if someone wants to marry for money, its not the states role to interfere.

southsiderosie

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

The overwhelming majority of marriages in the world today are done for economic reasons. Coercion is one thing, but if someone wants to marry for money, its not the states role to interfere.

I certainly wouldn't deny that economics plays a role in peoples' decisions to get married. But one could argue that it becomes the state's business when the decision to marry for money puts a foreign national on the path to citizenship and gives them access to the labor market.

OhNoYouDidn't

southsiderosie wrote: »

I certainly wouldn't deny that economics plays a role in peoples' decisions to get married. But one could argue that it becomes the state's business when the decision to marry for money puts a foreign national on the path to citizenship and gives them access to the labor market.

I'm not sure. Do you really want some Garda showing up at a registry office and vetoing marriages? Is this a power we want to grant the state?

Pauleta

If a women paid me a couple of grand for a sham marriage, I would gladly be of service. All you have to do i sign your name and probably dont even have to see her again.

KindOfIrish

I think Gardie should classify some sham marriages as human trafficking and it's a criminal offense.

southsiderosie

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I'm not sure. Do you really want some Garda showing up at a registry office and vetoing marriages? Is this a power we want to grant the state?

In most countries, that's not how it works; the checks are part of the normal visa application process. So upon the marriage or entry into the state, the foreign spouse would get a provisional visa for, say, two years. And during that time they would have to document that they were living together, sharing bills, etc, and would also have to do 1-2 interviews with immigration officials to verify that they actually did have some kind of relationship. In some countries, an immigration official will even come by your house, or at a minimum will spot check what seems like a dodgy application. After two years, if immigration is convinced THEN the spouse gets a permanent residency visa (in the US this would be a green card).

As a side note, I was once offered $10,000 to marry a foreign national; when I lived in Miami - a city with a huge immigrant population - these kinds of arrangements were very common.

caseyann

southsiderosie wrote: »

The Irish Times ran a very interesting op-ed today about sham marriages between poor Latvian women and poor non-EU migrants:



Given how strict immigration officials are about proving the validity of marriages conducted outside of Ireland, it's pretty shocking that there are few to no mechanisms to check the validity of foreign marriages when people are already within the country. That said, it seems that whatever changes are made to the law have to happen at an EU level, otherwise the problem will just shift to less stringent countries.

I also have to wonder about how widespread of a problem this is; I haven't heard of any cases like the one in the UK involving the vicar who performed over 300 sham marriages.

Finally, part of me wonders how big of a deal we should really make about "sham" marriages. There are plenty of people who make very instrumental decisions about marriage: they do it for financial reasons, or for tax reasons, etc. I sense that this would seem less objectionable if one of the parties involved was Irish, but since the laws regarding movement and the right to work apply to EU member states in general, this seems like a bit of a moot point. If anyone should be annoyed by this, it seems like it should be the EU states like Germany and Belgium who are much more strict about granting residence permits to foreign spouses.

Can i ask you what you mean by poor?

Can one of the mods link these two threads together all about shams and sham marriages also.Thanks

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056021688

p.s there is no law to stop them here crazy.

caseyann

KindOfIrish wrote: »

I think Gardie should classify some sham marriages as human trafficking and it's a criminal offense.

If you look at some of the girls statements it is exactly that in one of my links on my thread,There is girls who were beaten and raped when they refused to go through with it.

caseyann

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I'm not sure. Do you really want some Garda showing up at a registry office and vetoing marriages? Is this a power we want to grant the state?

They have that power in England and luckily for some dimwitted girls do stop them.

OhNoYouDidn't

caseyann wrote: »

They have that power in England and luckily for some dimwitted girls do stop them.

I disagree. I don't want the Gardaí intervening because they consider someone to be 'stupid' in any aspect of life.

There is an issue around trafficking and coercion that needs to be dealt with. But if I chose to marry for love, money, or to ensure my partner can stay in Ireland with me thats my personal business. Not yours, not the state and definitely not the cops.

OhNoYouDidn't

southsiderosie wrote: »

In most countries, that's not how it works; the checks are part of the normal visa application process. So upon the marriage or entry into the state, the foreign spouse would get a provisional visa for, say, two years. And during that time they would have to document that they were living together, sharing bills, etc, and would also have to do 1-2 interviews with immigration officials to verify that they actually did have some kind of relationship. In some countries, an immigration official will even come by your house, or at a minimum will spot check what seems like a dodgy application. After two years, if immigration is convinced THEN the spouse gets a permanent residency visa (in the US this would be a green card).

Thats a far better approach then what happens today - the Gardaí STOPPING weddings they feel are suspicious.

caseyann

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I disagree. I don't want the Gardaí intervening because they consider someone to be 'stupid' in any aspect of life.

There is an issue around trafficking and coercion that needs to be dealt with. But if I chose to marry for love, money, or to ensure my partner can stay in Ireland with me thats my personal business. Not yours, not the state and definitely not the cops.

lol anything to be against me,You agree with people de frauding the countries to get a visa.And people exchanging money to lie and under false reasons get access to countries and residency they may have no right what so ever to be in.
Fine do as you wish.What you have described about marrying your partner to stay in country is a completely different thing altogether.If you cant differentiate between them not my problem.
And yes if money passes hands its a crime ime.

OhNoYouDidn't

caseyann wrote: »

lol anything to be against me,You agree with people de frauding the countries to get a visa.And people exchanging money to lie and under false reasons get access to countries and residency they may have no right what so ever to be in.
Fine do as you wish.What you have described about marrying your partner to stay in country is a completely different thing altogether.If you cant differentiate between them not my problem.
And yes if money passes hands its a crime ime.

Hold on. I'm saying that who I marry and for what reasons is my business and my business only. People get married for daft reasons all the time, its not a criminal matter.

And no, if money passes hands its not a crime. Dowries still happen down the sticks. Its an old Irish tradition. The issue is that we have an international dimension now which should be dealt with by inspection, not coppers showing up at a wedding and shouting 'I have reasons to object to this union"

southsiderosie

caseyann wrote: »

Can i ask you what you mean by poor?

"Destitute"" = poor. Did you read the article?

Originally Posted by caseyann
lol anything to be against me,You agree with people de frauding the countries to get a visa.

ONYD didn't say that. The issue here is, should the guards stop at the moment of marriage, or should the state issue provisional visas and then follow up for two years to be sure the marriage is real. I think the latter is better than the former, and that's the point of agreement with ONYD. Did you read the post just above your "anything to be against me" comment?

caseyann

southsiderosie wrote: »

"Destitute"" = poor. Did you read the article?



ONYD didn't say that. The issue here is, should the guards stop at the moment of marriage, or should the state issue provisional visas and then follow up for two years to be sure the marriage is real. I think the latter is better than the former, and that's the point of agreement with ONYD. Did you read the post just above your "anything to be against me" comment?

I wouldnt call been able to pay 10 and 20 grand to some lativian or other poor people trying to get a EU passport.The buyer is not poor ,I would like to be that kind of poor lmao


he made a comment he disagreed with me as if i was the one who made that law.Which in all honesty imo is justified and right.I could care less if the other party is willing.Its a lie and fraud and misleading and criminal and should be outlawed here.And yet another gap for illegals and fraudulent criminals to stay where they are not entitled to be in first place.

caseyann

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Hold on. I'm saying that who I marry and for what reasons is my business and my business only. People get married for daft reasons all the time, its not a criminal matter.

And no, if money passes hands its not a crime. Dowries still happen down the sticks. Its an old Irish tradition. The issue is that we have an international dimension now which should be dealt with by inspection, not coppers showing up at a wedding and shouting 'I have reasons to object to this union"

You are comparing dowries to buying a wife for a passport? I have seen it all now.
They dont all turn up at weddings they get there before if they havent been made aware of it and also to catch the offender in the act to make a stronger case.
They stop it in its tracks before even getting down the aisle yes they should have that power.

OhNoYouDidn't

caseyann wrote: »

They stop it in its tracks before even getting down the aisle yes they should have that power.

And who decides? What are the criteria they will use to decide if its a genuine marraige or not?

Do you not see that its a far better and less invasive policy to hold residency permits for 3 years after marraige and inspect the couple to see are they actually a couple than allow some thick culchie cop kick in the door of a chapel and decide that you and your prospective husband can't wed?

OhNoYouDidn't

caseyann wrote: »

.Its a lie and fraud and misleading and criminal and should be outlawed here.

So you want every marraige between a middle aged millionaire and a stunning 20 something stopped as well? Celebrity weddings that stink of publicity?

Or is it only when its the 'foreigners' getting married for a better lifestyle that you object?

southsiderosie

caseyann wrote: »

I wouldnt call been able to pay 10 and 20 grand to some lativian or other poor people trying to get a EU passport.The buyer is not poor ,I would like to be that kind of poor lmao

They aren't paying that much. The article said they were paying 1-2,000, which is not a lot of money. The general point was that men from poor countries were arrying women who were also from relatively poor countries in order to enable the men to stay and work in the EU.

caseyann wrote: »

he made a comment he disagreed with me as if i was the one who made that law.Which in all honesty imo is justified and right.I could care less if the other party is willing.Its a lie and fraud and misleading and criminal and should be outlawed here.And yet another gap for illegals and fraudulent criminals to stay where they are not entitled to be in first place.

If you are really concerned about sham marriages though, then the provisional visa/follow-up actually makes more sense. People will pull enough documents together to pass the giggle test at the point of marriage. But having to maintain a residence and have evidence of a shared life together is a big investment. This is more likely to deter sham marriages than anything else. And as I said before, having lived somewhere where this kind of thing was common, the easiest part is the initial marriage. The hard part is actually convincing the government to give the foreign spouse a residency card.

caseyann

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

And who decides? What are the criteria they will use to decide if its a genuine marraige or not?

Do you not see that its a far better and less invasive policy to hold residency permits for 3 years after marraige and inspect the couple to see are they actually a couple than allow some thick culchie cop kick in the door of a chapel and decide that you and your prospective husband can't wed?

Hahaha oh the melodrama.You would swear they were kicking in doors to the sham marriages in the process of actual marriage.They merely are given the information of possible marriage under false pretenses to de fraud the immigration.By what ever parties immigration and the Police follow up and stop it in tracks.

Nodin

What?

caseyann

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

So you want every marraige between a middle aged millionaire and a stunning 20 something stopped as well? Celebrity weddings that stink of publicity?

Or is it only when its the 'foreigners' getting married for a better lifestyle that you object?

Lmao foreigners looking for a better lifesytle? Are you having a laugh now?
So in order to do that they get married to a woman for money? if thats the case why not just give out the Passports and ability to be in countries for nothing.When the truth is they are probably not entitled to be in said country in first place and creating more losers living here.And also been denied the right to be here and found a new avenue to stay.
Ah sure just tell them to all stay.

And try the whole having problems with foreigners on someone else i am married to someone who isnt Irish born

caseyann

southsiderosie wrote: »

They aren't paying that much. The article said they were paying 1-2,000, which is not a lot of money. The general point was that men from poor countries were arrying women who were also from relatively poor countries in order to enable the men to stay and work in the EU.
In 2006 they offered girls €10,000, which is huge money for Latvian girls, possibly several years’ income. In 2009 the prices fell dramatically, to €2,000,” he says.
So we should be the stop gap and the charity of the world for the poor from other countries when not even taking care of own?????



If you are really concerned about sham marriages though, then the provisional visa/follow-up actually makes more sense. People will pull enough documents together to pass the giggle test at the point of marriage. But having to maintain a residence and have evidence of a shared life together is a big investment. This is more likely to deter sham marriages than anything else. And as I said before, having lived somewhere where this kind of thing was common, the easiest part is the initial marriage. The hard part is actually convincing the government to give the foreign spouse a residency card.

No really it wouldnt as soon as they get their visa to stay they are no longer with those wives.We are not america and if they dont get it bleeding hearts club come out in force like here,just because i dont agree with sham marriages and think should be made illegal here as it is nearly everywhere else.

southsiderosie

caseyann wrote: »

No really it wouldnt as soon as they get their visa to stay they are no longer with those wives.We are not america and if they dont get it bleeding hearts club come out in force like here,just because i dont agree with sham marriages and think should be made illegal here as it is nearly everywhere else.

In Ireland, people get permission to stay RIGHT AWAY. How does this make more sense than issuing a provisional visa?

You are right, you are not America - it is much easier to game the system in Ireland.

Again, did you even read the original article?

caseyann

southsiderosie wrote: »

In Ireland, people get permission to stay RIGHT AWAY. How does this make more sense than issuing a provisional visa?

You are right, you are not America - it is much easier to game the system in Ireland.

Again, did you even read the original article?

I didnt read the one you posted no As i already had posted something similar in another thread
I was being sarcastic.They will do anything including pretend to be married for the amount of time it needs to to get said visa or residency.Then when done gone on way.
Mockery of this country and a mockery to people who have fought for their right to be here and work here and gain Irish passport,who actually do respect this country and other countries they are in.

And creating the means of proving they are in relationship that they can provide for them and have jobs and their own rent or houses should be compulsory.That will deter them wont it;) Rather than let said sham marriages go through and claim the tax deductions or social welfare and save the country millions.Rather then let them marry and claim what ever they wish just because they married EU nationals.
See point made.Even Canadians are investigated and booted if found to be sham marriages.

caseyann

P.s they are taking advantage and using those people who are in desperate need for money also and as you saw in article some of them are beaten and raped.
It should be banned.

K-9

caseyann wrote: »

And try the whole having problems with foreigners on someone else i am married to someone who isnt Irish born

How would he have proved he wasn't marrying for convenience?

caseyann

K-9 wrote: »

How would he have proved he wasn't marrying for convenience?

He already had his residency before i met him And he would want to be off his head to marry me for convenience

K-9

caseyann wrote: »

He already had his residency before i met him And he would want to be off his head to marry me for convenience

LOL

But you get my point? The alternative method of checking after 2 or 3 years is better. Plus if they have fled surely they could rescind the citizenship, passports etc.?

caseyann

K-9 wrote: »

LOL

But you get my point? The alternative method of checking after 2 or 3 years is better. Plus if they have fled surely they could rescind the citizenship, passports etc.?

I dont think so,i think the American way is the right way.I do get your point,but i dont think fake people should get that chance to live in our countries under false pretenses.Sure in 2 or 3 years they may just be living in house together and wait 6 years and then out they go after the check,continue to stay married to her till all is done.People are not that quick to throw in towel.
Get( the proposal) out on dvd should give you a laugh

caseyann

I think tbh you guys can not say to allow such marriages be allowed when things like this are happening,its disgusting.
Two men are still in custody after their arrest on Saturday as part of a a joint investigation with Latvian police into suspected human trafficking.
The women, were being held by their captors in a flat over a shop in Palmerstown, west Dublin, but managed to raise the alarm in a series of text messages to friends at home in Latvia. Last night the women were in the care of the State.
However, the men who arranged their passage and promised them jobs turned on them over the weekend, explaining they must marry two Asian men – one Indian and one Pakistani – in order that the men could get Latvian passports, which would entitle them to live and work anywhere in the EU.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/1026/breaking3.html
Those people should be deported immediately and locked up in their own countries.

caseyann

A Garda spokesman said two men arrested on suspicion of imprisoning the women – a 23-year- old Indian man and a 32-year-old Pakistani man – were released without charge yesterday afternoon pending the forwarding of a file to the Director of Public Prosecutions.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/1027/1224282071548.html


Thats kidnapping and false imprisonment,How do they get released?

In the first eight months of 2010, 115 of the 266 applications for residency made by Pakistanis in Ireland were based on marriages to Latvian women, according to the department.

conorhal

I've heard an awful amount of waffle on the radio from registrars, Guards and immigration officials, all shrugging their shoulders and suggesting that there is nothing they can do.

It's bloody simple, we are not talking more than a few hundred cases here.
All that's needed is a single piece of legislation that requires anybody who has applied for a marriage license to marry an individual from outside the EU to present themselves for an interview with an immigration official (who would interview the couple both separately and jointly) to satisfy the state that the marriage was not a sham would sort the problem overnight. It’s not rocket science.

In the case that was in the papers this week, one of the Asian men involved was here on a student visa, he already has a violation of his visa requirements against him and had been under surveillance by the Guards. My question is simply this, if the Guards thought he was dodgy, why was he not just deported the instant he violated his visa conditions?
We are just far too lax here regarding immigration, just try overstaying your visa by one dingle day or working on a holiday visa in the States or Australia and you will be blacklisted from the country. Here, we just shrug and claim there’s nothing we can do.

OhNoYouDidn't

caseyann wrote: »

I think tbh you guys can not say to allow such marriages be allowed when things like this are happening,its disgusting.
Two men are still in custody after their arrest on Saturday as part of a a joint investigation with Latvian police into suspected human trafficking.
The women, were being held by their captors in a flat over a shop in Palmerstown, west Dublin, but managed to raise the alarm in a series of text messages to friends at home in Latvia. Last night the women were in the care of the State.
However, the men who arranged their passage and promised them jobs turned on them over the weekend, explaining they must marry two Asian men – one Indian and one Pakistani – in order that the men could get Latvian passports, which would entitle them to live and work anywhere in the EU.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/1026/breaking3.html
Those people should be deported immediately and locked up in their own countries.

You are linking two entirely different phenomenon. If these guys have treated women in the manner they have, of course the law should come down on them. No-one is arguing against stamping out human trafficking.

But thats an entirely different debate to whether the state has the right to veto marraiges.

caseyann

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

You are linking two entirely different phenomenon. If these guys have treated women in the manner they have, of course the law should come down on them. No-one is arguing against stamping out human trafficking.

But thats an entirely different debate to whether the state has the right to veto marraiges.

No it is not,how many marriages of the above are genuine? It all falls under same category,Sham marriages should be vetoed and the articles prove why they should be.

OhNoYouDidn't

caseyann wrote: »

No it is not,how many marriages of the above are genuine? It all falls under same category,Sham marriages should be vetoed and the articles prove why they should be.

Whats a 'genuine' marriage?

Whats a 'sham' marriage?