Emergency First Responder ??

knifey_spoonie

Has anyone in here done it?, I can see there is loads of companies that do it, but id like to find out first hand from people who did the courses, what the trainers were like.

I dont wantto shell put the money to find out they only do a half arsed course/Dont cover everything.

So here is my question, what company would you recomend to do the EFR Course??

Thanks

sgthighway

It is a very popular course. In theory the course should be the same where ever you go because its all the same syllabus.

What part of the country are you in?

Hooch

Im afraid we cannot recommend companies etc for EFR on thread

The course its self is what most retained fire service members have completed around the country. Although its only 6 days in length it is very comprehensive and and best course out there.....unless you go as far as EMT.

Alpha Papa

well said NGA, I have completed one. I have used the skills learned in both my professional and personal life. Make sure you go for a Phecc approved organasation/course.

coolmoose

As Alpha Papa said, there are plenty of "first responder" courses that are not PHECC Approved, and will not result in PHECC EFR Qualification being awarded.

You're best off going with a PHECC Approved Training Institute. EFR training can be completed for under €1000 now (800 or thereabouts), 6 days course, can include CFR if not a pre-requisite. Many courses offer this as a 1 week course (Mon-Sat) or as a part time course (consecutive weekends) .

The training standard for EFR can be downloaded, and every PHECC approved EFR course should fulfill all of the requirements laid out in the Training & Education Standards (available on www.phecc.ie)

Hooch

If I can just add to coolmoose's great post, try to get an organisation that has instructors with pre hospital experience.....be that ambulance, fire, garda or rescue......you'll get so much more from the course instead of an instructor who has never been to an RTC etc!!!

ivabiggon

just one other thing, there is only a small amount of a difference between EFR and EMT syllabus but the EMT is more comprehensive, my advice for what it worth if you can stretch to the cost of the EMT it is a better certification/ qualification to have, plus you should have a chance to do a placement on an ambulance.
good luck with it.

knifey_spoonie

Thanks for all the replys lads, really helpfull.

There is a couple of reasons for me wanting to do it

Mainly for myself, its something ive wanted to do, also its something that may be usefull in work there is probally a higher risk of injuries in my industry. Also im taking part in the Mongol Rally next year (Charity Rally Ireland to Mongolia) so it is something i want to have in place for that.

I am also lucky that i can probably get some of the costs of the course covered by work.

I would love to do the EMT course but 5 Weeks out of work aint going to happen at the minute.

BTW im based in Laois

touge_drift

for what you want, your better off doing the efr. as to be an emt and to be able to use those skills you need to be part of or work for a cpg approved body like the ambulance service or a volunteer service etc.

ivabiggon

touge_drift wrote: »

for what you want, your better off doing the efr. as to be an emt and to be able to use those skills you need to be part of or work for a cpg approved body like the ambulance service or a volunteer service etc.

i don't think your right with your information there touge drift, what your saying is a person looking to feather their nest in relation to qualifications and that they can't become an EMT because their not in some club when the reason they are doing the coarse in the first place is to get into a job involving their new found skill, sorry i can believe that.

if an individual has the the money & time and the competence surly they can enroll in an EMT coarse do the exams come out the far end with a cert and say hey...."i'm an emergency medical technician" and if they come across an incident work on someone safely within their parameters and have no fear of repercussion.

touge_drift

ok i'll re-phrase that then, you cannot be a LICENCED emt without being a employee or member of a cpg approved company/organisation.

**edit** im also under the impression you cannot do emt interventions and such without your licence? unless ive been fed a big pile of rubbish?
so therefore you cannot opperate as an emt really without a licence, and to gain said licence you need to be part of a cpg approved body.

i'll put my hand up and accept it fully if im wrong, im just saying what ive always been told and taught.

ivabiggon

sorry...and no reflection on you, but if that is true and i have no reason to disbelieve you..... thats a load of rubbish, if you do a coarse and get the cert you should be able to practice your skill, there is hardly any intervention that a EMT can do that if done right within CPG's would harm any patient.
sound like a PHECC rule to make jobs for the boys. sure who would know if you practiced on the side of the road, i tell you now if i got out of my ambulance and an EMT had worked on a client i certainly wouldn't be questioning licences..
absolute rubbish, if this is true.
i can give so many scenarios were a person would do the coarse only to better themselves.. take for instance a business owner who sets up a crèche or a scout leader. these wouldn't be in organisation that are phecc registered.
poor show if it is??????

Actual Paramedic

touge_drift wrote: »

ok i'll re-phrase that then, you cannot be a LICENCED emt without being a employee or member of a cpg approved company/organisation.

**edit** im also under the impression you cannot do emt interventions and such without your licence? unless ive been fed a big pile of rubbish?
so therefore you cannot opperate as an emt really without a licence, and to gain said licence you need to be part of a cpg approved body.

i'll put my hand up and accept it fully if im wrong, im just saying what ive always been told and taught.

You can join the register without been in a CPG approved organisation, know a good few people who are licenced and registered EMT's.

As for practicing as an EMT, depends what you do. Medications are limited as even if you are part of an organisation will you have them with you off duty/when not volunteering? Does the organisation have insurance cover for you 24 hours a day?

anyhow if someone from a CFR to EMT to aP is on scene and helping a patient when I arrive I would be glad of the help and even better they are helping the patient which is goal of us all.

coolmoose

touge_drift wrote: »

ok i'll re-phrase that then, you cannot be a LICENCED emt without being a employee or member of a cpg approved company/organisation.

**edit** im also under the impression you cannot do emt interventions and such without your licence? unless ive been fed a big pile of rubbish?
so therefore you cannot opperate as an emt really without a licence, and to gain said licence you need to be part of a cpg approved body.

i'll put my hand up and accept it fully if im wrong, im just saying what ive always been told and taught.

You theoretically can practice as an EMT without being a member of a CPG approved organisation... HOWEVER, you are not entitled to administer any medications.

You do not have to be in a CPG approved organisation however to sit the EMT course, exams and be awarded PHECC EMT registration.

touge_drift - In theory you are correct as there are 4 criteria that need to be fulfilled in order for a practitioner to implement a certain CPG:

1. Be in good standing on the PHECC register
2. Be trained and competent in the specific CPG in question
3. Be working on behalf of a CPG approved organisation
4. Be authorised by said organisation to implement said CPG

It would be vitally important, as it is for all practitioners, to operate and practice within the boundaries of your CPGs "off-duty", and to organise a statutory service vehicle (be it HSE or DFB) to attend the scene. This issue is quite pertinent for the many EFRs/EMTs/Ps in the retained and full-time fire services (excluding DFB) as they are not in fact CPG approved organisations.

In reality the only practitioners covered 24/7 insurance wise by employers are HSE/DFB Ps/APs (who are also advised to contact local ambulance control to inform them they are in attendance)

touge_drift

thanks for clearing that up, i was only going by what we have been told over the last year or so since i got my licence.

interesting to know.

i'll accept defeat now haha

coolmoose

touge_drift wrote: »

thanks for clearing that up, i was only going by what we have been told over the last year or so since i got my licence.

interesting to know.

i'll accept defeat now haha

You don't need to accept any defeat...you are in fact correct that you need to be a member/working on behalf of a CPG approved organisation to practice to your CPGs.

However, it would be safe to intervene whilst "off-duty" once you stick to your CPGs and do not administer any medications.

baronflyguy

ivabiggon wrote: »

..... if they come across an incident work on someone safely within their parameters and have no fear of repercussion.

ivabiggon makes a good point here.

If you act in accordance wholly with your training status and not act in a grossly negligently fashion – then it is unlikely that any litigious claim would be successful.

coolmoose wrote:

In reality the only practitioners covered 24/7 insurance wise by employers are HSE/DFB Ps/APs (who are also advised to contact local ambulance control to inform them they are in attendance)

Interesting point coolmoose and its a kind of a grey area some/maybe all the voluntary orgs i think cause I've never seen it written down and I could be wrong cause I dont have concrete information but just from what I've been told when i asked various people in these orgs, I was under the impression some/maybe all first aid related voluntary orgs also provide 24/7 insurance to their volunteers on and off duty if they are certified through that organization and obviously only do what they are trained and certified to do. Say someone says to Volunteer X off duty "hey you are in such and such org we need help" and Volunteer X decides to initiate First Aid to a patient and assume duty of care, by someone asking for help and the voluntary organization name been mentioned then that person is insured. Naturally a report should be done up and handed into someone the voluntary organization so what happened is known about.

Anytime insurance is talked about it scares people and I hope Ireland doesn't turn into a drama queen suing nation. If a member of my family or a friend was in need or needed CPR I would be glad someone tried their best if they are trained in a skill and didnt turn a blind eye for fear of been sued.

- BFG

coolmoose

baronflyguy wrote: »

ivabiggon makes a good point here.
Interesting point coolmoose and its a kind of a grey area some/maybe all the voluntary orgs i think cause I've never seen it written down and I could be wrong cause I dont have concrete information but just from what I've been told when i asked various people in these orgs, I was under the impression some/maybe all first aid related voluntary orgs also provide 24/7 insurance to their volunteers on and off duty if they are certified through that organization and obviously only do what they are trained and certified to do. Say someone says to Volunteer X off duty "hey you are in such and such org we need help" and Volunteer X decides to initiate First Aid to a patient and assume duty of care, by someone asking for help and the voluntary organization name been mentioned then that person is insured. Naturally a report should be done up and handed into someone the voluntary organization so what happened is known about.

Anytime insurance is talked about it scares people and I hope Ireland doesn't turn into a drama queen suing nation. If a member of my family or a friend was in need or needed CPR I would be glad someone tried their best if they are trained in a skill and didnt turn a blind eye for fear of been sued.

- BFG

I'm certainly not saying that people should be afraid of intervening, if they stick to their CPGs and their level of practice then they have no fear of any repercussions. However, the issue of being covered by a voluntary organisation's insurance policy whilst not providing services on behalf of that organisation is something for individuals to discuss and clarify with their own individual organisations.

More importantly, inititating First Aid and providing care as a PHECC Registered EMT/P/AP are entirely different concepts! Practitioners carry a much greater level of patient and treatment responsibility and therefore it would be prudent of them to clarify their organisations' insurance cover of their actions off duty - they technically cannot operate as an EMT on behalf of that organisation unless they are providing services on that organisation's behalf (e.g. at an event)

Up to individuals to clarify this point with their respective orgs, I know for a fact that HSE/DFB PHECC Registered practitioners are covered 24/7, cannot say for certain about any of the vols.

We are already one oft he most litigious countries in the world, so it wouldn't surprise me. As a practitioner I would certainly clarify my organisations position regarding this matter for my own peace of mind.

Most importantly though, sticking to your CPGs is the key to avoiding any drama whilst intervening in a pre-hospital setting.

baronflyguy

coolmoose wrote: »

I'm certainly not saying that people should be afraid of intervening, if they stick to their CPGs and their level of practice then they have no fear of any repercussions.

Sorry coolmoose, my post was not intended to be an attack on your posting. I found your post was very informative and interesting to read. It was late at night when I posted and sometimes posts on boards can be picked up wrong. Last paragraph wasn't directed at you , was intended for anyone reading this thread and the seeing the discussion on insurance and it spooks them.
It would be good if someone in the know in the various vol orgs could clarify just out of curiosity and like you said peace of mind to know.

touge_drift

in my voluntary org, we have been told you are classed as on duty and insured from the time you leave your house until the time you get home from any duty/event.

so what i take from that is im only insured while i go to and from duty and training or anything else in the name of the org im in.

maglite

Just a point of interest, if your concerned about insurance, ask in writing or get a copy of the insurance documents to insure what someone believes is true..

Also I do belief no one in Ireland has ever been successfully sued acting in a good Samaritan capacity.

Actual Paramedic

coolmoose wrote: »

Up to individuals to clarify this point with their respective orgs, I know for a fact that HSE/DFB PHECC Registered practitioners are covered 24/7, cannot say for certain about any of the vols.

Are you sure the DFB are covered when off duty? Mate of mine in it says they are told they aren't. I am only saying what he tells me and he works for them.

coolmoose

Actual Paramedic wrote: »

Are you sure the DFB are covered when off duty? Mate of mine in it says they are told they aren't. I am only saying what he tells me and he works for them.

I'm certainly open to correction on that, I'm going on what I've been told by a friend of a mate who works for them...your source is firsthand!

DublinRescuer

In order to work at emt level you must 1. Be working on behalf of a phecc approved organisation, 2. Be in good standing with phecc and be competent and trained in the procedures, and 3. Have the equipment there to provide emt standard care. Also, if you are off duty and come across a scene, you can use your knowledge yes, but can only work to ofa level in any situation. Otherwise you are not covered and are at risk yourself. So that's it really, if you are not in the "club", you cannot use your high skill or you could be held responsible..

In the orgs I'm in, when you wear your uniform you are cover. Though you only wear it for events so that's a given. Few situations arised where couple members on the way to training where called by Garda to help, they couldn't say no, but there was allot of dispute within officers who were fore and against the two??

miju

DublinRescuer wrote: »

In order to work at emt level you must 1. Be working on behalf of a phecc approved organisation, 2. Be in good standing with phecc and be competent and trained in the procedures, and 3. Have the equipment there to provide emt standard care. Also, if you are off duty and come across a scene, you can use your knowledge yes, but can only work to ofa level in any situation. Otherwise you are not covered and are at risk yourself. So that's it really, if you are not in the "club", you cannot use your high skill or you could be held responsible..

Not the case anymore with the good samaritans act in place now

Mycroft H

And I've never seen anything in PHECCs documentation that you had to drop to OFA level when not acting on behalf of an approved organisations. Seems like hearsay.

Your registered as an EMT and that's the standard that PHECC are going to hold you to.

timmywex

DublinRescuer wrote: »

3. Have the equipment there to provide emt standard care.

Equipment = My Brain.


You can provide EMT standard care with a plaster, or indeed just your brain

BoonDoc

maglite wrote: »

Also I do believe no one in Ireland has ever been successfully sued acting in a good Samaritan capacity.

That is the saving factor for this discussion. No judge will allow a first responder to be sued for offering first aid within his training. If that ever happens then no one will EVER stop to help someone injured.

China has this problem. If you lift a finger to help someone you are responsible for everything about them and can be sued for treating them.



You have to offer the same treatment that anyone with your level of training would offer. Therefore, at the EFR level, you have to provide the aid that any EFR in Ireland would be able to offer.

You are not going to grab a Makita drill and decompress a cranial bleed. You may have seen it on telly but you cannot do anything beyond what other people at your level of training would do.