Training Pace to race time question (warning: Contains Taper Madness)

--amadeus--

Right, the last time I raced was the Strawberry half at the end of June, which was wk 2 of the training plan and so not representative of where I am now (I hope...) I did that in 1:28 odd. Before that my last race was last years Amsterdam marathon.

On Sunday I'm racing Amsterdam again. I'm pretty sure I have the right pace planned but I'm doing the usual taper doubt thing. On Saturday I did 3*1 mile reps w/ 2 min recoveries. Times were 5:49 / 5:56 / 6:05 (slowed badly and I'm blaming the large pizza with extra jalapeños that I had for lunch and that started to offer to re-visit...).

Now that's 17:50 secs for 3 miles. So here is a piece of string question - does that broadly equate to an 18 min 5k? I took the 2 min recoveries which will have helped my pace but race day atmosphere (and a pizza free tummy!) should have compensated for that, making them broadly the same, yes?

The reason I ask is that an 18 min 5k would be more or less on target for my goal marathon time.

ecoli

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Right, the last time I raced was the Strawberry half at the end of June, which was wk 2 of the training plan and so not representative of where I am now (I hope...) I did that in 1:28 odd. Before that my last race was last years Amsterdam marathon.

On Sunday I'm racing Amsterdam again. I'm pretty sure I have the right pace planned but I'm doing the usual taper doubt thing. On Saturday I did 3*1 mile reps w/ 2 min recoveries. Times were 5:49 / 5:56 / 6:05 (slowed badly and I'm blaming the large pizza with extra jalapeños that I had for lunch and that started to offer to re-visit...).

Now that's 17:50 secs for 3 miles. So here is a piece of string question - does that broadly equate to an 18 min 5k? I took the 2 min recoveries which will have helped my pace but race day atmosphere (and a pizza free tummy!) should have compensated for that, making them broadly the same, yes?

The reason I ask is that an 18 min 5k would be more or less on target for my goal marathon time.

would have you between 18 and 18.05 roughly if you take out the breaks but put in race factors such as sprint finish adrenaline etc you not too far off

donothoponpop

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Now that's 17:50 secs for 3 miles. So here is a piece of string question - does that broadly equate to an 18 min 5k?

There's a 100m difference between 3 miles and 5k, so that's a 10 sec 100m you need to make up before your marathon. Go to a track and keep running 100m sprints, until you do one in 10 seconds, if you don't do this it will be mathematically impossible to hit your goal marathon time.

--amadeus-- wrote: »

The reason I ask is that an 18 min 5k would be more or less on target for my goal marathon time.

Are you comparing using McMillan or similar? Bear in mind those times are equivilent to what you should be capable of running, by training specifically for that event. So I'd say the fact that you're hitting close to that 5k time in marathon training, show you're in good shape.

Best of luck. Taper madness indeed...;)

ecoli

donothoponpop wrote: »

There's a 100m difference between 3 miles and 5k, so that's a 10 sec 100m you need to make up before your marathon. Go to a track and keep running 100m sprints, until you do one in 10 seconds, if you don't do this it will be mathematically impossible to hit your goal marathon time.

Dont wanna be a kill joy but 3 mile = 4827m
5k = 5000m so we are talking close to 200m

Gringo78

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Right, the last time I raced was the Strawberry half at the end of June, which was wk 2 of the training plan and so not representative of where I am now (I hope...) I did that in 1:28 odd. Before that my last race was last years Amsterdam marathon.

On Sunday I'm racing Amsterdam again. I'm pretty sure I have the right pace planned but I'm doing the usual taper doubt thing. On Saturday I did 3*1 mile reps w/ 2 min recoveries. Times were 5:49 / 5:56 / 6:05 (slowed badly and I'm blaming the large pizza with extra jalapeños that I had for lunch and that started to offer to re-visit...).

Now that's 17:50 secs for 3 miles. So here is a piece of string question - does that broadly equate to an 18 min 5k? I took the 2 min recoveries which will have helped my pace but race day atmosphere (and a pizza free tummy!) should have compensated for that, making them broadly the same, yes?

The reason I ask is that an 18 min 5k would be more or less on target for my goal marathon time.

There's taper madness & then theres taper MADNESS...

Using a 5km time to predict a marathon result is crazy enough....but using an interval session to predict a 5km race time to predict a marathon time....why don't you just ring Irish Psychics Live...they will be much more accurate.

Mate of mine recently ran 17:0x for 5k, had 5 LSR's > 20 miles & 5 MP runs >12 miles straight at sub 3 pace. Then ran 3:08 for the marathon (his 3rd failed attempt at sub 3). 5k race time tells you NOTHING (although I actually think you'd be better off with a slower 5k time...may suggest more slow twitch fibres than fast twitch which might be a good thing).

Why not try a session of Yasso 800's if you want some mental reassurment that you're in the ball park for the target?

donothoponpop

ecoli wrote: »

Dont wanna be a kill joy but 3 mile = 4827m
5k = 5000m so we are talking close to 200m

You're right, so he'll just have to run the sprints a little bit faster. Tougher target, but the marathon training means he has the endurance to go several nights without sleep, should he not hit his 10 second 173m target in the first few days. The important thing is he doesn't leave the track until its done. There's magic taper pills available in all good pharmacies which might help.

ecoli

donothoponpop wrote: »

You're right, so he'll just have to run the sprints a little bit faster. Tougher target, but the marathon training means he has the endurance to go several nights without sleep, should he not hit his 10 second 173m target in the first few days. The important thing is he doesn't leave the track until its done. There's magic taper pills available in all good pharmacies which might help.

In my mind the session is too short as an indicator should be doing 26*1 mile @ MP off no recovery + 400m @ MP best indicator session ever

cwgatling

ecoli wrote: »

In my mind the session is too short as an indicator should be doing 26*1 mile @ MP off no recovery + 400m @ MP best indicator session ever

With a fast finish

--amadeus--

Oh you are all so terribly funny. Just you wait till Monday when my race is run and ye are all gripped with the Taper Madness.

Ohhh how I will laugh

Gringo78

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Just you wait till Monday when my race is run

Best of luck in Amsterdam

shels4ever

Best of luck, don't think you will learn anything from a session so close to your planned marathon, Stick to plan A.

runningcoach

Best of luck Andrew great to hear you making it to the start with only mental issues ... yes this discussion is totally TAPER MADNESS with no sense of reality in it but I am sure I will be feeling this way in another week !!!

Krusty_Clown

As has been pointed out, you can't really contrast it with a 5K time, but there is value in comparing it with you previous incarnations of the same session.

FYI: Here's the last three times I've done exactly that session (though my recovery times tend to be longer):
September '09: 6:02/5:54/5:58
March '10: 5:43/5:38/5:39 (5 mins off previous PB)
September '10: 5:25/5:29/5:22 (8 mins off previous PB)

So instead of adding them up, compare them to the previous time you ran this session, and the results on that day.
Oh and best of luck in Amsterdam. Just go do it already.

TheRoadRunner

I guess this goes to show why it is beneficial to include a couple of races in the lead up to a marathon. 10k, 10 mile and half marathon can definitely help guide marathon target pace.

runforrest

advice please !! now all doubts setting in HM time sept 1hr 41 did dcm 09 3.36 paris april 3.38 was going to try go with 3.30 pacer yes/no ?? help

kennyb3

runforrest wrote: »

advice please !! now all doubts setting in HM time sept 1hr 41 did dcm 09 3.36 paris april 3.38 was going to try go with 3.30 pacer yes/no ?? help

Difficult one, my first instinct would be to say no, because if you double the half time you ve only 8 mins to play with to get to 3.30 (most people at a 3.30 level would want 14 -20mins extra imho - again depend on long runs so on), so really you need to be able to run 1.45 comfortably enough for both halfs.

Mcmillan has you down for 3.33 based on that half time which suggests going with the 3.30 pacers might be just too fast.

There are loads of other factors which only you can answer though:

- Was that half a PB? Or was it an off day. If you are capable of 1.37 or so 1.45 might feel easier than is suggested above.
- Quality of your long runs and amount of them
- Have you improved since the half

Overall though if it was me id be thinking of starting slower than (how slow is up to you) 3.30 and if i felt good at 20miles giving it loads for last 10k or so

runforrest

thanks kenny yea 1 hr 41 is pb did same last year 10secs faster this year enjoyed it though! good training 2x 18 2x16 2x20 lsrs a bit of speedwork did yasso 800s x 10 @ 3min 30 secs pace tough but actually got a bit better as we went on. did 16 last friday with 10 at mgp hr was 155 odd peak to 162 on hill im 44 and female does this indicate much im so afraid of wall this is marathon 11 and have never hit it:eek:

kennyb3

runforrest wrote: »

thanks kenny yea 1 hr 41 is pb did same last year 10secs faster this year enjoyed it though! good training 2x 18 2x16 2x20 lsrs a bit of speedwork did yasso 800s x 10 @ 3min 30 secs pace tough but actually got a bit better as we went on. did 16 last friday with 10 at mgp hr was 155 odd peak to 162 on hill im 44 and female does this indicate much im so afraid of wall this is marathon 11 and have never hit it:eek:

Given all of the above (11 marathons & that you ve run 3.36 off higher half time etc) id say go for it. You may as well start with the pacers, you ve nothing to lose.

If you'd have said it was your first or second marthon or that your other marathon times were based on faster halfs id have said prob best not to, but as i say you may as well give it a go.