Rotational grazing and stocking rate, looking for general advice

johngalway

Hi folks,

Bit of a "how long is a piece of string?" question. My small farm is currently split up into two blocks, set stocked, basically it carries what I own when they're not on the commonage. Currently on 40 or so blackface ewes plus their lambs.

The way I have worked it thus far is by having the rougher 10 acre block on the higher part of the farm as a rough grazing/feeding are pre-lambing. As the ewes lamb they are then let down into the better land which is a 7.5 acre block.

My latest idea is to divide that 7.5 acre block into three 2.5 acre blocks by erecting a T fence. Then I would graze those three blocks in rotation as the ewes lamb down.

I suppose as the sheep will lamb a few at a time I am best to leave them in block 1 until I build up a decent number, maybe 15 or 20? Then move them onto block 2 and add any newly lambed ewes to block 2, then onto block 3 adding newly lambed ewes to block 3 and so on.

Eventually there will be 40 ewes plus their lambs in a 2.5 acre block, moved in rotation (actually there won't, it'll likely be 36/38 as some will likely be in the "Intensive care field". Now I am second guessing myself here, wondering is this enough ground for 40 ewes (I can guess the answer depends on grass growth and quality of grass in the first place). How often will I need to move them (there's that bit of string). Ideally I would move them every 7 days, as that period of time would also give me time to treat weeds etc and have the residue gone before they get back to that block, but it may be less or more depending on weather and growth conditions.

Lambing will start the beginning of the last week of March. In a normal year my commonage can be grazed from the beginning of May. Though I usually hold back until mid May before letting the ewes with single lambs off to the "hill". So the ewes will be on the good ground for roughly 7ish weeks including numbers building up as lambs are born.

I apologise for rambling, I'm just trying to tease the new system out in my head and am looking for possible pitfalls. It's the same amount of land at the end of the day, just divided smaller and grazed more intensively?

I'll split up the top rough grazing eventually but one step at a time

ATB,

John

5live

The first question that springs to mind is when are you closing the 7.5 acre block to build up grass for late march. What spring growth rates would you get? And is there a backup plan if grass availability isnt enough or too much? Im sorry for just adding more questions but i am paddocking this winter and asking the same questions. One piece of advice i was given for cows was 1 acre for 30 cows for 1 day. I dont know if that is any help or just adding questions:o

johngalway

I can close it any time from mid December really. I wouldn't have a notion on growth rates tbh, this year was a disaster with the cold and dry, but in a "normal" year with grass growth before lambing I have enough for them, throw out some 18.6.12 and 0.7.30, timing dependent on weather but no later than two weeks before lambing.

I feed concentrates as well, pre and post lambing. Ideally I'd like to reduce that post lambing in time, if it's possible.

I've ran 50 ewes on this bit of ground in the past, ironically those years I had my best quality lambs. I guess I'm just getting the jitters from thoughts of a new system.

5live

I know that feeling. I think the first year is the worst and you can learn from it and not make the same mostakes in year 2. Just totally different ones:D. I would say you are on the right track as regards paddocks but you may have to get out early with fertiliser, as early as possible i'd say to try to get a good cover. And try to bring up the P levels to index 3 as this gives grass a good kickstart in spring too. And there is always the option of feeding a bit of ration or hay if grass levels not good enough. Reading back on this i think i have raised more questions than answers though:o

blue5000

I'd sugest divide into 4 paddocks, that gives more time for grass to grow in between grazings. Put water in centre. just my 2 cents.

Tipp Man

Just wondering what your reasoning is behind wanting to change for 1 block to 3 blocks?

What benefits do you expect to achieve? Is the cost of fencing etc worth it?

Basically whats wrong with what your doing now?

johngalway

Ok, the con is the cost of the fencing, I can put it up myself.

The pro's as I read them (and I'm no expert) is increased clover levels (more clover should mean the land needs less Nitrogen also) as the stocking rate on a small block is high but the grazing time is short, so what happens is the sheep don't get the time to pick and choose the juiciest bits to eat first, they're in, they eat, they're out.

This gives the advantage of the less desirable grasses being eaten too, where as in a large block, they'd go from sweet bit to sweet bit.

What I'm doing wrong now with one big block is because the sheep are targeting the sweet bits, other grasses and weeds are growing and shading the clover out, clover likes light.

Another advantage is when I split the place up, I can treat rushes, thistles etc. more quickly as I won't have to empty an entire large block, just a small one. Also the sheep should graze young weeds more effectively.

I'm told the worm burden will also be reduced, if I can split into four blocks and leave the sheep for a week in each. So they wouldn't see Block 1 again until 21 days time.

I'm undecided between 3 or 4 blocks but I need to give it thought, rather get it right the first time out.

With this type of grazing management, picking up a real good ram next year, coupled with a few other improvements I hope to make, I expect to have a much better quality crop of lambs in 2-3 years time (not kidding myself I can do all this in one year).

Eventually... I would like to be in a position where I can fatten my own lambs, have them slaughtered and sell direct to the customer. Whether I'm in the right part of the world land quality wise to do that is another question. All I can do is give it a go and see where it brings me!

Username John

I have no real answers to any of your questions John am afraid... but I will add some of my thoughts...

I am looking at the a similar issue, I have one 10 acre block, and I want to divide it. My issue is tho I want to be able to cut it in the summer, and dividing it in 4 wouldnt work, as its on too much of a slope. Also, putting down and taking up sheep wire is no fun... so I was thinking maybe the electric netting might be the answer...

Have you given any thought to using electric sheep wire. Lets say divide your block of land in two using normal wire, and then use the electric wire to divide each side again?

There is a lad thats strip gazing store lambs in a field using the electric netting, on my way to work, and it looks a good job. They're eating each patch down well, as opposed to picking the best of it when they have the entire run as you say...

johngalway

Username John wrote: »

Have you given any thought to using electric sheep wire. Lets say divide your block of land in two using normal wire, and then use the electric wire to divide each side again?

There is a lad thats strip gazing store lambs in a field using the electric netting, on my way to work, and it looks a good job. They're eating each patch down well, as opposed to picking the best of it when they have the entire run as you say...

I have thought about electric fencing. The downside for me is all my flock are blackface, so all have horns. I'd be wary of an animal getting tangled then repeatedly shocked. Maybe I'm being overly cautious but I've seen them do stranger things (one almost killed herself in a furze bush last year :rolleyes: ). She'd be delighted with a 'leccy fence that one.

But, it has been suggested to me, that I stick a post and wire fence down the middle, then a 'leccy fence to subdivide again. I have seen 5 strand 'leccy fences used in the Teagasc demo hill* farm outside of Leenane. Though they ran a mixed flock so I'm not sure what breeds they had within that field. It's pretty much finished up there now, only one man keeping it ticking over.

(hill* farm which cuts silage and has grass as good as you'd find up in Meath ).

5live

If you divide in two permanently then the sheep net suggested in an earlier post might be a good idea in that you can move the fence when grass is grazed out without too much capital cost and maybe install permanent fence when you are more confidant of where to put it(and when money is more plentiful?). And looks like you have to be under 35 and in a sheep improvement scheme to qualify for the new grant scheme(if it ever actually arrives)

johngalway

Jaysus, more hoops to jump through. The under 35 bit I can do, the sheep improvement scheme though?

Username John

5live wrote: »

And looks like you have to be under 35 and in a sheep improvement scheme to qualify for the new grant scheme(if it ever actually arrives)

Same here - under 35, yes.
"In a sheep improvment scheme" - Whats this? I am tempted to say WTF :mad:

sorry 5live - can you tell me where you got this info? Or anything else about "sheep improvement schemes"

Tipp Man

johngalway wrote: »

Ok, the con is the cost of the fencing, I can put it up myself.

The pro's as I read them (and I'm no expert) is increased clover levels (more clover should mean the land needs less Nitrogen also) as the stocking rate on a small block is high but the grazing time is short, so what happens is the sheep don't get the time to pick and choose the juiciest bits to eat first, they're in, they eat, they're out.

This gives the advantage of the less desirable grasses being eaten too, where as in a large block, they'd go from sweet bit to sweet bit.

What I'm doing wrong now with one big block is because the sheep are targeting the sweet bits, other grasses and weeds are growing and shading the clover out, clover likes light.

Another advantage is when I split the place up, I can treat rushes, thistles etc. more quickly as I won't have to empty an entire large block, just a small one. Also the sheep should graze young weeds more effectively.

I'm told the worm burden will also be reduced, if I can split into four blocks and leave the sheep for a week in each. So they wouldn't see Block 1 again until 21 days time.

I'm undecided between 3 or 4 blocks but I need to give it thought, rather get it right the first time out.

With this type of grazing management, picking up a real good ram next year, coupled with a few other improvements I hope to make, I expect to have a much better quality crop of lambs in 2-3 years time (not kidding myself I can do all this in one year).

Eventually... I would like to be in a position where I can fatten my own lambs, have them slaughtered and sell direct to the customer. Whether I'm in the right part of the world land quality wise to do that is another question. All I can do is give it a go and see where it brings me!

I only ask because in our beef system we have moved away from regular rotations and now our bunches have only 2 "sections" each. So we graze them in 1 section, move them to section 2 for 18-21 days, then back to section 1 and so on for the entire summer. What we have done is intoduce clover lays which means that our cattle land rarely sees the fertiliser spreader and we have found it can produce just as much grass as fertilised rotated ground. this obviously is much more difficult to implement in a dairy system but for beef (or sheep in your case) we feel that people are too fond of regular changes which means bringing in the topper and spreader which means more costs.

but these are only our thoughts and suit our system

5live

johngalway wrote: »

Jaysus, more hoops to jump through. The under 35 bit I can do, the sheep improvement scheme though?

I think its the breed improvement programme ie flock recording and the new sheep ireland(?) programme. Details in todays farm indo. U35, in DAs and in sheep improvement programme. Also priority given to those in quality assurance programmes. Those last 2 i only know they exist but what they involve i havent the foggiest. A bit like the rest of my life really:)

johngalway

5live wrote: »

I think its the breed improvement programme ie flock recording and the new sheep ireland(?) programme. Details in todays farm indo. U35, in DAs and in sheep improvement programme. Also priority given to those in quality assurance programmes. Those last 2 i only know they exist but what they involve i havent the foggiest. A bit like the rest of my life really:)

Why do I get the feeling I'm too late to join all those other outfits before this "scheme" get's brought in?

tabby aspreme

i find a paddock systym for sheep helps to reduce the amount of footrot, and it definitly brings on the clover

johngalway

tabby aspreme wrote: »

i find a paddock systym for sheep helps to reduce the amount of footrot, and it definitly brings on the clover

I imagine it would, reduces the amount of long grass, plus after any treatments they can nearly always be turned out onto fresh ground.

tabby aspreme

im told the footrot bug can only survive for 16 days in soil so any land without sheep for 16 days should be clean