question about counselling and ethics

metrovelvet

I know a counsellor or therapist is not there to judge a patient. However, if the patient wants to do unethical or moral things and it is really really important to them, is it the counsellor's place to encourage them to live out their dreams or to try to stop them?

What place do ethics have in therapy and counselling?

Odysseus

metrovelvet wrote: »

I know a counsellor or therapist is not there to judge a patient. However, if the patient wants to do unethical or moral things and it is really really important to them, is it the counsellor's place to encourage them to live out their dreams or to try to stop them?

What place do ethics have in therapy and counselling?

It really depends on the school of psychotherapy and the individual therapist. Ethics has a significant place with therapy, but again it comes down to training and the therapist.

For example if a person tell me the are planning on taking heroin for the first time, do I tell them the dangers of opiate use or an I more interested in why the want to try it?

Some therapists would do the former, some the latter, some may try both. From my perspective ethics are connected to desire, as you said the person living out their dreams, as a therapist I'm there to question their desire, not to tell them which is the best way to do.

However, different people will have different thoughts on the topic. It also depends on where I'm working, if within the confindes of my HSE work I have to speak to my consulant if I believe that a client was going to seriously hurt another person, or if I'm informed of a child being at risk.

However, my understanding is that I would not have to do so in private practice, whereas many would.

As it is such a large area can you be a bit more specific about your question on ethics, or are you happy with just a broad discussion?

stuf

For a therapist to be accredited then they should work within the ethical framework of their accrediting body and complaints against a therapist would be made and judged within this framework.

Here are links to the code of ethics of IAHIP and for IACP - two of the larger accrediting bodies for psychotherapists:

http://www.irish-counselling.ie/index.php/code-ethics
http://www.iahip.com/ethics.htm

At the beginning of a therapy the therapist should make clear the limits to confidentiality of the relationship as part of the verbal contract made at this point between the client and therapist.

There will always be ethical dilemmas, particularly where two or more ethical principals come into conflict. A responsible therapist will work these through with a supervisor or colleague paying heed to the clients confidentiality.

metrovelvet

Odysseus wrote: »

It really depends on the school of psychotherapy and the individual therapist. Ethics has a significant place with therapy, but again it comes down to training and the therapist.

For example if a person tell me the are planning on taking heroin for the first time, do I tell them the dangers of opiate use or an I more interested in why the want to try it?

Some therapists would do the former, some the latter, some may try both. From my perspective ethics are connected to desire, as you said the person living out their dreams, as a therapist I'm there to question their desire, not to tell them which is the best way to do.

However, different people will have different thoughts on the topic. It also depends on where I'm working, if within the confindes of my HSE work I have to speak to my consulant if I believe that a client was going to seriously hurt another person, or if I'm informed of a child being at risk.

However, my understanding is that I would not have to do so in private practice, whereas many would.

As it is such a large area can you be a bit more specific about your question on ethics, or are you happy with just a broad discussion?

It was something that was in a PI thread that makes me ask. Can I bring it up here?

dashboard_hula

You stated "unethical or (im?)moral things". Can you give an example of what you mean, a for instance?
The reason I ask is because generally at the beginning of a course of counselling, the practitioner usually agrees a framework of "you can discuss anything at all in confidence, and it will only be breached if I feel that you have become a danger to yourself or to others, or may be about to commit an illegal act". However I think it's made clear that illegal acts are only that which is actually prohibited by law.
Unethical and immoral situations I'd think are highly subjective in that one persons unethical is another persons acceptable (cannabis smoking f'rinstance).

Interesting topic though.

metrovelvet

This woman on PI was talking about how she wanted to have a baby and due to fertility problems it was now or never. So she started sleeping with her ex without telling him she wasn't taking precautions and he had made it clear to her that he didnt want to have children. [I got the impression the ex didnt exactly press her about what precautions she was taking and he didnt take any either.] But she mentioned having a therapist and the therapist was behind her, but had warned her of potential feelings of guilt. I know what a good therapist would have done, explored why she wanted to be a mother on those terms,etc etc, but I see the therapists approval and encouragement as helping this girl ruin her life.

Odysseus

metrovelvet wrote: »

This woman on PI was talking about how she wanted to have a baby and due to fertility problems it was now or never. So she started sleeping with her ex without telling him she wasn't taking precautions and he had made it clear to her that he didnt want to have children. [I got the impression the ex didnt exactly press her about what precautions she was taking and he didnt take any either.] But she mentioned having a therapist and the therapist was behind her, but had warned her of potential feelings of guilt. I know what a good therapist would have done, explored why she wanted to be a mother on those terms,etc etc, but I see the therapists approval and encouragement as helping this girl ruin her life.

Interesting case example, I would want to know more exactly what is the statement "the therapist is behind her based on"? This is a significant issue I have encountered it myself where I have the feeling I was being used as a donor, as you can imagine I was out of there very fast. So I would imagine it is not that uncommon.

Personally I think I would be taking a stance of only being interested in what is behind this, I would neither be supporting or advising against this behaviour. However, some therapists are either very moralistic or would be lets say very alternative in their thinking.

This would be something I would be brinning to supervision to explore a bit more, but depending on one's one could argue either to support, advise against, or explore the behaviour.

metrovelvet

I can see their dilemna. Is there any place for ethics in counselling outside of a relgious context [ie a rabbi or priest.]

Let's say the wife of a mobster is seeing you. She comes to you as a bored housewife with middle class malaise. Would you ever get involved with discussing how she enables his criminality while enjoying the spoils of his crimes? And what this means for her children?

The lady in PI for example, was completely deceiving the ex boyfriend and really didnt care about the duplicity. [Im not a counsellor but an obvious angle to this for me would be the 'lets talk about your self sabotage streak.']

Odysseus

metrovelvet wrote: »

I can see their dilemna. Is there any place for ethics in counselling outside of a relgious context [ie a rabbi or priest.]

Let's say the wife of a mobster is seeing you. She comes to you as a bored housewife with middle class malaise. Would you ever get involved with discussing how she enables his criminality while enjoying the spoils of his crimes? And what this means for her children?

The lady in PI for example, was completely deceiving the ex boyfriend and really didnt care about the duplicity. [Im not a counsellor but an obvious angle to this for me would be the 'lets talk about your self sabotage streak.']

I don't really understand your first question.

I deal with a lot of criminality in my practice, so yes. From my viewpoint when you start therapy you are there to look at every aspect of your life. So this would very much be part of the therapy. I have worked with some very violent people and a few abusers, this is always on the table so to speak. You go to therapy to put words on your life, so in the case you give it would be very important, even if it sounds like the Sopranos, which actually from a therapeutic veiewpoint was very interesting. Most therapists I know watched it for thar reason.

For me I would not be labeling the behaviour as such, well not to the client, but I think it would be an important piece of work. In my work with those who engage in criminal behaviour it is not my place to judge.

This can be hard at times as I used to belong to a Vol group with the HSE, the critical incident team, we responded in a psychological way to those who experience violent behaviour during there work. I have often had a client who may have assualted a member of my team, that could be a hard one. Sadly partly due to cut-backs this service no longer exists, even though we where volunteers, the only cost to the service was our time and travel. Now ironically, the person is sent to a psychologist in private practice costing more money.

The judgement factor is very important in therapy, with anything but the big examples are the easist to use as examples, so with someone who has neglected/abused their child, in order to provide therapy I need to be able to put aside my personal feelings about the topic. I have supervision to discuss them.

dashboard_hula

metrovelvet wrote: »

I can see their dilemna. Is there any place for ethics in counselling outside of a relgious context [ie a rabbi or priest.]

My experience is outside the field of counselling, and what's more, has only just begun. Maybe that's why this is so fresh in my mind:

No matter what situation the person is coming to you with, unless it's illegal, or putting them or a child/at risk person in immediate danger, you do not judge. You do not persuade either way. You use the tools/methods/techniques to get the person to a point where they can think clearly and rationally and then they can make a proper decision. But even if all that happens, and the person decides to continue with the "dodgy" behaviour, that's their choice. And you can't really do anything about it.

I think the concept of ethics in counselling or psychotherapy situation must be a constantly changing and evolving one, and because it's so situation-dependent, can never be hard and fast.

Personally - that topic you've described sounds like a whole heap of pain waiting to happen for everyone, and I personally think the PI OP has no earthly clue how much she's getting herself in for - but nobody can actually stop her doing it.

metrovelvet

Odysseus wrote: »

I don't really understand your first question.

I deal with a lot of criminality in my practice, so yes. From my viewpoint when you start therapy you are there to look at every aspect of your life. So this would very much be part of the therapy. I have worked with some very violent people and a few abusers, this is always on the table so to speak. You go to therapy to put words on your life, so in the case you give it would be very important, even if it sounds like the Sopranos, which actually from a therapeutic veiewpoint was very interesting. Most therapists I know watched it for thar reason.

For me I would not be labeling the behaviour as such, well not to the client, but I think it would be an important piece of work. In my work with those who engage in criminal behaviour it is not my place to judge.

This can be hard at times as I used to belong to a Vol group with the HSE, the critical incident team, we responded in a psychological way to those who experience violent behaviour during there work. I have often had a client who may have assualted a member of my team, that could be a hard one. Sadly partly due to cut-backs this service no longer exists, even though we where volunteers, the only cost to the service was our time and travel. Now ironically, the person is sent to a psychologist in private practice costing more money.

The judgement factor is very important in therapy, with anything but the big examples are the easist to use as examples, so with someone who has neglected/abused their child, in order to provide therapy I need to be able to put aside my personal feelings about the topic. I have supervision to discuss them.

I suppose Im wondering more if a patient wants to do something which is unethical, [lets leave out the law and crime because you can bad things which are perfectly legal] and its very important to them, like in the case of the PI example I gave, is there any place in therapy to try to stop them?

Odysseus

metrovelvet wrote: »

I suppose Im wondering more if a patient wants to do something which is unethical, [lets leave out the law and crime because you can bad things which are perfectly legal] and its very important to them, like in the case of the PI example I gave, is there any place in therapy to try to stop them?

My opinion in good therapy no, but I know of lots of therapists who act on their own morals, so some may. However, for me that would be a bad thing.