Pacing groups - a moral dilemma?

Cartman78

Was out for a long run at the weekend and as usual my mind wandered much further that I could ever hope to run.

Anyway, got thinking about the morals of pacing groups in marathons.

Used a pacing group for a marathon earlier this year and hit my target bang on the button and set a new PB etc. etc. but to be honest it felt like a hollow achievement as I'd spent the entire race following 2 red balloons as opposed to pacing myself.

Being able to run at a certain pace for a certain length of time is surely one of the fundamental skills of long distance running. Delegating this to a 3rd party is at best lazy and at worst, borderline cheating.

Anyway, as mentioned, I've probably thought about this way too much (things can get pretty existential on a long slow run:) ) but would be interested to know if anyone else has similar qualms about pacing groups?

Cheers cm

Oisin11178

Dont use a pacing group if you have a problem with them i say. To say they are borderline cheating is a bit foolish in my opinion. The person still physically run the whole race. Even the most elite atheletes on the planet use pacers. Just my opinion.

xebec

Oisin11178 wrote: »

Dont use a pacing group if you have a problem with them i say. To say they are borderline cheating is a bit foolish in my opinion. The person still physically run the whole race. Even the most elite atheletes on the planet use pacers. Just my opinion.

+1

Pacers are just a tool to achieve a goal. IMO it's just another part of the running armoury, as well as things like a decent pair of shoes and gels etc. for nutrition. No moral dilemma for me, but each to their own.

gerard65

Cartman78 wrote: »

Being able to run at a certain pace for a certain length of time is surely one of the fundamental skills of long distance running.

You still have to do this, the pacers don't run for you. Pacers add alot to a mass parcipation race and , from reading the reports here, they enjoy their role as well. I followed pacers in the Dublin half and enjoyed the craic. Long live the pacers:)

nerraw1111

I can see where you're coming from OP.

It's much easier to tuck in behind a group of pacers, switch off the brain and follow them around the course. Personally, I can't see the enjoyment in it. Would rather try to run a 2.57 and finish in 3.01 than follow pacers and clock 2.59.

But I think it's a bit OTT to say it's cheating. Some pacees push themselves to the limit to stay with pacers and have done the hard work already in training.

Personally, I don't agree with pacers, I think it somewhat diminishes the achievement. You shouldn't need pacers to achieve your goal but each to their own.

They certainly ruin the spectacle of professional races

misty floyd

Very interesting one OP. Its definitely not borderline cheating and its not lazy but I do think that it is slightly less of an acheivement. Having said that, I'm going to try to stick to the pacer in DCM and if they help to get me over the line with 2:59:?? I won't give a sh!t.

sarsfieldsrock

Whats the difference between using a pacer and using a Garmin to judge your pace? Is that borderline cheating as well?
I prefer to run the races on my own but don't see how following somebody else is cheating.

I prefer to try a little medtation on my long runs. Helps the breathing and avoids overthinking stuff.

Oisin11178

Pacing is so much more than people strapping baloons on and people following them. Its a comraderie thing for alot of people. Some people need the encouragement of the group, some people let their mental demons get to them if they run solo. Make no mistake they have trained as hard as the runner that is running on his own and to say their achivment is diminished in any way is kind of annoying in my opinion. If you dont agree with pacers dont use them but dont deny anyone else the oppurtunity to use them.

Brianderunner

I can see your point OP, people still say radcliffe's world record is borderline cheating because she used male pacemakers in London. But nearly every WR on the track is achieved using pacemakers for a large part of the race. I mean would you consider roger bannisters sub 4 min mile cheating because he had pacers? If its ok for the elites then its ok for us joe soaps.

RayCun

I don't really see the problem. If it's okay to wear a watch & pacing band and check your time against the mile markers (or to be right behind the clock car and use that!), and okay to use a Garmin, following a pace group is just more of the same.
I'd be very impressed with someone who ran perfect splits with no timing help whatsoever, but that's not the alternative. (And I'd be impressed by their ability to know their own pace, which is kind of different to being impressed by someone's running ability)

rovers_runner

Two ways of looking at this:

If your average runner is good enough to run sub 3hrs - 3:30 - 4hrs then they are good enough, pacemaker or no pacemaker.
It just takes away from the achievement in so much as someone else did all your thinking for you, chasing a balloon isn't really capturing the spirit of what a marathon means is it?


For elites it's a little different, it takes the skill out of planning and attacking at stages of the race.

Take the Olympic marathon in 2008 for instance:
http://www.sportsscientists.com/2008/12/top-8-of-08-number-6.html
Now Haile has set numerous world records but Wanjiru would have handed his arse to him on a plate in a tactical battle, hence Haile didn't show up (despite his excuses).

Also Boston and recently New York have placed a ban on pacers.

Peckham

It's also worth noting that the rules of the Dublin marathon state:

Race judges may disqualify athletes who are paced by person or persons on bicycles on the race route.

They might want to clarify this, given that they now supply official pacers!

RayCun

rovers_runner wrote: »

It just takes away from the achievement in so much as someone else did all your thinking for you, chasing a balloon isn't really capturing the spirit of what a marathon means is it?

If you're aiming for a 2.30 marathon, and lining up at the start you see a couple of people in front of you who are very consistent 2.29/2.30 marathoners, and you think "right, I'm going to follow them"... does anyone have a problem with that?

And when people are racing, and they go out faster or slower to stay with the leading pack - isn't that 'letting other people do their thinking'?

If you're checking your times against a pace band and going faster or slower to hit those times, is the paper thinking for you?

RayCun

Race judges may disqualify athletes who are paced by person or persons on bicycles on the race route.

rovers_runner

RayCun wrote: »

And when people are racing, and they go out faster or slower to stay with the leading pack - isn't that 'letting other people do their thinking'?

Yes but there are only 26/30 points in the race where people should actually be able to gauge their pace, I think GPS is frowned upon for races is it not ?

If that was the case everyone would have to judge wisely if following someone how fast they thought that person was running? Not an easy thing to do I'd imagine.

If you're checking your times against a pace band and going faster or slower to hit those times, is the paper thinking for you?

Pace band is the same as calculating it in your head, it's fine when you hit the 1,600m split but what about in between?

RayCun

I presume the pacers will be using GPS devices and pace bands to set their paces, so if the only difference is between using your own, and using someone else's indirectly...?

Are GPS devices really frowned upon?

Cartman78

Thanks for the replies guys - hope anyone didn't take offence from my LSR meditation-induced ramblings.

I guess the 'borderline cheating' comment may be bordeline OTT

I think my main issue with my pacing group experience was how incredibly boring it was - I personally found the whole thing to be rather joyless & clinical.

tunney

Oisin11178 wrote: »

Dont use a pacing group if you have a problem with them i say. To say they are borderline cheating is a bit foolish in my opinion. The person still physically run the whole race. Even the most elite atheletes on the planet use pacers. Just my opinion.

Pacers are illegal in triathlon as they are considered cheating in that sport.

robinph

rovers_runner wrote: »

I think GPS is frowned upon for races is it not ?

Someone went and threw a 305 to the side of the road after they started to drop backwards a bit from the lead in the European marathon. So they must be allowed.

--amadeus--

Pacers and pace groups do of course make hitting a goal time easier, it would be pretty pointless doing them otherwise!

A pacer will lift the mental pressure of running a race - they determine the right pace and eliminate that "should I speed or / should I slow down" thought process. They also can control pace adjustments - if time is lost through (for example) congestion then it is up to the pacer to determine how, when and where to pull that time back.

Is that cheating? I don't think so. Less of an achievement? Probably. But I'd take a paced 2:59 over an unpaced 3:00 any day. You still have to run the race, cover the distance and put in the training. And pacers are common in elite running so why not at our level?

And the biggest benefit from running with a pace group has very little to do with the pacer, IMO. Running with a group of your peers and aiming at a common goal gives a great sense of camaraderie and that common motivation and encouragement can be the difference between sticking it out or missing a time.

Peckham

RayCun wrote: »

Race judges may disqualify athletes who are paced by person or persons on bicycles on the race route.

You may laugh, but wait until you see how many bicycles you encounter during your marathon debut!

RayCun

Peckham wrote: »

You may laugh, but wait until you see how many bicycles you encounter during your marathon debut!

There was a guy cycling along Chesterfield in the last section of the 10 mile. I politely invited him to consider cycling somewhere else instead.

Has it ever gone beyond frank and full exchanges of views between runners in a marathon and cyclists?

TheRoadRunner

I have paced myself off other runners in the past not just for marathons but also shorter events. In one ten mile race it turned out 4 of us from the same club were pacing ourselves off the same guy from another club. It was quite funny when we all kopped what we were doing. The guy could run 6 minute miles all day and we were all hoping to go under the hour for 10 miles. To make matters worse the 4 of us out kicked him in the last 1/2 mile.

Krusty_Clown

tunney wrote: »

Pacers are illegal in triathlon as they are considered cheating in that sport.

Interesting, but irrelevant. Running is considered cheating in race walking. Should we stop running in running races?

Krusty_Clown

I have never felt the need to follow a pacer, as generally I don't run to an exact pace, preferring to speed up or slow down as the body dictates. But I have often taken encouragement from other runners, which is one of the major advantages of a pacing group; a shared goal and people working together to achieve that goal. The good news is that it's very easy to opt in, or opt out. Just take a few paces forward, and don't take any encouragement from those around you.

RayCun

tunney wrote: »

Pacers are illegal in triathlon as they are considered cheating in that sport.

But cycling is allowed! A cunning plan forms....

Seriously, if there is a problem with pace groups it might be that people set themselves targets that are too soft (or less often, too hard) because they gravitate towards a time that has a pacer.

Oisin11178

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Interesting, but irrelevant. Running is considered cheating in race walking. Should we stop running in running races?

+1
I dont do tris and never intend to. You work within the rules of the sport your participating in.

Condo131

RayCun wrote: »

Has it ever gone beyond frank and full exchanges of views between runners in a marathon and cyclists?

Not quite. Nearest i ever came to it was in a National Half Marathon. I was making great ground until the roads narrowed and I came up to 2 guys from the same club, accompanied by two cyclists. Several times I tried to pass, only for the bikers to move out and cut me off.

After the third or fourth time, I blew them out of it and told them if it happened again they (the bikers) would be "going down" and "in the direction of the guys you're pacing". There was no reply but one of the runners put the boot down and brought the worst of the bikers with him. The other guy, and his pacing biker, rapidly dropped back.

Unfortunately my rhythm was gone and, while I continued to run well, I couldn't get back to my previous pace. ...and I missed a masters medal by 11 seconds! :(:(

The number of bikes on the course in Dublin last year was significantly higher than any previous year.

This year, there will be 13,000+ runners, a record, so the dangers of bikes on the course will be significantly increased. If anyone is thinking of getting support from someone on a bike, PLEASE, don't have them cycle on the course.

Lots of runners in Dublin have support from people on bikes, but they do it with consideration - they cycle off-course from point to point. That way they hamper no-one and see a lot more of the marathon themselves.

Condo131

RayCun wrote: »

But cycling is allowed!

.....just in case thinks you're serious....

Cycling on the Marathon course is NOT allowed!

robinph

Would love to be able to shout or scream at anyone on a bike if I encountered them on my way round a race. But the effort of shouting at them would ruin my rhythm too much so I try and just stay calm on passing people. If I do manage to pass someone getting in my way, either by bike or ipod, then they will get a dirty look as I pass them. If they are really taking the piss though then I would have no problem giving them a shove, but haven't had to do that in anything other than XC races to another runner yet.

RayCun

Condo131 wrote: »

Cycling on the Marathon course is NOT allowed!

I meant in triathlons
I don't mind giving up pacers (Garmins, pace bands...) if I can bring a bike instead. I'll even promise not to draft!

asimonov

In this year's national half marathon there was a guy on a racing bike supporting a runner ahead of me - as we came up one of the sharper hills - he stalled, couldn't get his feet out of his pedals in time and fell into the ditch. how i laughed.

Hard Worker

Pacing and pacemakers have been used in athletics since time began. Sometimes, the pacing would be organised by athletes themselves minutes before a race. I once ran a graded 10000 metres and noticed that there were 4 others in the race of a similar standard. We agreed to run at a set pace for 15 laps and then each to his own. There were still 4 of us together at the bell and the 4 of us ended up with pb's. None of us felt like we had cheated and I was very happy to put it in my diary as a pb.
Regarding bikes on the Dublin Marathon course: there was an overseas runner knocked over and injured last year ( requiring a hospital stay ) by a cyclist who was pacing a runner. Needless to say, we wouldn't like that to happen again. With that in mind, any cyclists on the course will be asked to leave the course, and depending on what part of the course you are cycling on, you could be removed by a Garda. Secondly, any club runner being assisted by a cyclist, could find themselves disqualified.

Cartman78

Haven't done the DCM since 2005 - my only memory of bikes on the course that day were a couple of guys who seemed to be attached to one of the large American based charity groups. Their well-intentioned but contstant & ultimately annoying chants of "Looking good", "Looking strong" etc actually served to speed me up to get away from them

scargill

From a beginners point of view I found running with the 2 hour pacers in the Dublin Half to be a great help.

I seem to be OK judging my own pace when running on my own but when in a large group I tend to tag along with those around me. When I did the Kildare Half in May I ran with a group that were going too slow at the beginning, left them and ran with a group that were too fast for me. I ended up completely knackered after 9 miles - with my head melted!

Running with the 2hr pacers in Dublin allowed me to switch off and just run - which is that I tend to do on my training runs.

Not sure if it gave me an edge as such - but certainly knocked out the disadvantage of me tagging along with the "wrong" people !

grimbergen

In theory if using pacers is a form of cheating, then so is taking on board gels during the race...

as someone said earlier, pacers are just something else to help you along but ultimately you have to do the hard work. The best pacer in the world is not going to get a 4 hour runner home in 3 hours

opus

I'm running DCM to help a friend of mine who's doing his first marathon, our plan is to try and finish somewhere in the range 3:45 to 3:59.59. Idea is that I'll take care of the pace & do my best to keep us at a fairly constant rate from the start and of course provide suitable words of encouragement when needed which means all he has to concentrate on is keeping his legs moving for 26 miles.

Personally don't have any moral dilemmas at all with it! Especially when I see so many top class-athletes using pacers when they try for WR times.

rovers_runner

Irish athletes have been warned they will be disqualified if they are found to benefit from any illegal pacemaking in Monday's Dublin Marathon.
The warning has been issued by the Dublin Marathon Committee and Athletics Ireland and is directed at those competing in the Irish Championship, which is being run in conjunction with the international event.
They have been made aware of rules whereby any assistance can lead to disqualification and forfeiture of medals. Judges and referees have been appointed to enforce the rules.
The rule states: "Although men and women often run together, technically, they are running separate races but if a man obviously renders assistance to a woman by pacemaking, both parties are liable for disqualification."
This warning has been issued following a controversy in last year's women's championship when both the winner, Annette Kealy of Raheny, and runner-up, Pauline Curley of Tullamore, received two warnings when it was alleged that their supporters tried to ride beside them on bicycles.
Afterwards, race director Jim Aughney said that both runners came close to disqualification "as their supporters ignored the warnings from the course referee about pacing.
"The Gardai have warned us about the dangers of allowing cyclists on the course and we think it's dangerous and unfair that this type of intrusion should happen."
It was also announced yesterday that a record entry of 13,000 has been received for Monday's 31st running of the event, including the men's course record holder, Alexey Sokolov of Russia.
- Tom O'Riordan
Irish Independent

On the subject of pacers, see my attachment from last year, I observed a few people with the two Irish girls.....

If pacing is not allowed for championship runners is it not a bit hypocritical to allow pacers for the rest of the field?

Seeing Boston marathon bans pacemakers isn't it ironic that someone can be paced to assist them getting a qualifying time for Boston?

shels4ever

rovers_runner wrote: »

On the subject of pacers, see my attachment from last year, I observed a few people with the two Irish girls.....

If pacing is not allowed for championship runners is it not a bit hypocritical to allow pacers for the rest of the field?

Seeing Boston marathon bans pacemakers isn't it ironic that someone can be paced to assist them getting a qualifying time for Boston?

I don't think it matters one bit for a marathon where 90% or the people are not racing but runing at a specific pace/race plan. It's allowed in races from 800m to marathon's so no real problem with it. If a race director decides that they don't want pacers then they don't have them.

It's been going on for years even before the oficial pacers I know many people who have run a marathon to help people around.

plodder

rovers_runner wrote: »

If pacing is not allowed for championship runners is it not a bit hypocritical to allow pacers for the rest of the field?

For the rest of the "championship" field yes. But not for the masses who haven't even entered the championship.

shels4ever

plodder wrote: »

For the rest of the "championship" field yes. But not for the masses who haven't even entered the championship.

some may have

RayCun

Also not allowed for championship runners - carrying phones and other electronic devices (such as ipods, I presume. are Garmins allowed?), getting refreshment from somewhere other than an official station (so no jellybeans on the course, and what's the story with bringing your own?), and leaving the course unless supervised by an official (so bring a steward with you into the trees in Phoenix Park!)

Peckham

RayCun wrote: »

Also not allowed for championship runners - carrying phones and other electronic devices (such as ipods, I presume. are Garmins allowed?), getting refreshment from somewhere other than an official station (so no jellybeans on the course, and what's the story with bringing your own?), and leaving the course unless supervised by an official (so bring a steward with you into the trees in Phoenix Park!)

...and your finish time being the one shown on the clock when you cross the line, not your chip time.

As RayCun points out, it's not a fair comparison to compare rules for championship runners to those for the masses.

TheTubes

RayCun wrote:

I meant in triathlons
I don't mind giving up pacers (Garmins, pace bands...) if I can bring a bike instead. I'll even promise not to draft!

Thanks!

I had never heard of a pace band before, just googled em and will def be taking one.
I had thought up untill a couple of days ago that there would be a 4.15 pacer so I'll try and manage with this and slip in with the 4.30 group if that fails.

Pacers for some, miniature American flags for others.

BeepBeep67

RayCun wrote: »

Also not allowed for championship runners - carrying phones and other electronic devices (such as ipods, I presume. are Garmins allowed?), getting refreshment from somewhere other than an official station (so no jellybeans on the course, and what's the story with bringing your own?), and leaving the course unless supervised by an official (so bring a steward with you into the trees in Phoenix Park!)

Noticed at the Amsterdam marathon that an elite runner missed his bottle at one of the stations, within 30secs one of the media motor bikes handed one to him which he shared with another runner to his left. Have never seen any mention of any rules on this.

dermCu

http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/athletics-marathon-crackdown-on-pacemaking-2388875.html


It even made the front page of Letsrun....

Van.Bosch

so are garmins cheating according to the rules?