Motorists face blitz of new tolls on main roads

The Swordsman

From today's indo:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/motorists-face-blitz-of-new-tolls-on-main-roads-2366410.html

mike65

Its been a just a few weeks since a variation on this was last floated. That included N roads which was brain-fart stuff. This looks more workable but I'm not sure it would be worth the hassle.

Cookie_Monster

already in motors and politics

going to hit freight companies hard.

Oliver1985

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

already in motors and politics

going to hit freight companies hard.

Rail freight is saved

foggy_lad

Oliver1985 wrote: »

Rail freight is savedDead

fixed that for you, this will most likely not happen as it would just lead to traffic returning to towns and villages and all the expensive motorways would be empty!

Run_to_da_hills

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

already in motors and politics

going to hit freight companies hard.

No, it won't, It will just force them to take secondary routes or and destroy our towns and villages again. Other than that I could foresee it being passed on to the consumer by driving up freight and service charges thus increasing inflation. Another clever move by the Government. :rolleyes:

Cookie_Monster

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

No, it won't, It will just force them to take secondary routes or and destroy our towns and villages again. Other than that I could foresee it being passed on to the consumer by driving up freight and service charges thus increasing inflation. Another clever move by the Government. :rolleyes:

either way it will. they'll use more fuel and time going the slower routes or pay more tolls going the direct motorways. either way they lose out, and customers lose out through higher charges.

The Swordsman

In theory, the idea of splitting the toll on the M50 is a good one as it would make it more equitable.

In practice, I can't see how it could be done. The current system cost a fortune to install and costs a fortune to run. If three more similar systems were to be installed, the government would probably not make enough money to pay what it owes to NTR. The only other alternative that I can see is to go back to the old Toll Booth system and who in their right mind would want that.

AlekSmart

In practice, I can't see how it could be done.

The Gas part is,The Swordsman,it was already done and then they changed their mind....

Up until the work on the 3 Laning of the M50 began,all of the on-ramps still had the concrete plinths upon which were to be mounted the toll-booths to collect £1 each time a car entered the M50.

However,following a monumental and ground breaking tussle between the Local Authorities and The Government of the day the idea was dumped...until now.

Of course this simply cannot have anything to do with the present successful Toll Road franchisees not exactly coining it in as the Motorway traffic levels have dropped off the scale in comparision with the projections made when Ireland was Up THERE with the big-boys.

Since Minister Dempsey signed off on a highly secretive funding arrangement with these companies which guarantees them a set level of return on their "Investment" i`d imagine he`s desperate for any kind of quick-buck to get the euro`s rolling in to his department,so they can give it straight back out to some nice foreign investors......:o

The Swordsman

AlekSmart wrote: »

The Gas part is,The Swordsman,it was already done and then they changed their mind....

Up until the work on the 3 Laning of the M50 began,all of the on-ramps still had the concrete plinths upon which were to be mounted the toll-booths to collect £1 each time a car entered the M50.

I wasn't aware of this.

Presumably, the pound was to be a once off charge to use the motorway no matter whether it was for a mile or 10. The new suggestion from the NRA is that you pay more if you use more of the road.

On certain toll roads on the continent, there is a barrier on the on ramps where you collect a ticket and at all the off ramps there's a toll booth where you are charged by the amount of road you have used. It works very well, but the junctions are 20 or 30kms apart. On the M50, they are only 2 or 3kms apart so I couldn't see it working.

foggy_lad

was the issue back then about what percentage of the takings each county council would get?

ardmacha

Presumably, the pound was to be a once off charge to use the motorway no matter whether it was for a mile or 10. The new suggestion from the NRA is that you pay more if you use more of the road.

I don't think this use more - pay more is a good idea on the M50. It is supposed to be bypass, a flat rate charge for use of any part of it would seem better. They could vary the toll at peak times e.g. €3 peak €1.50 off peak both to raise revenue and balance loads.

BrianD

The Swordsman wrote: »

In theory, the idea of splitting the toll on the M50 is a good one as it would make it more equitable.

In practice, I can't see how it could be done. The current system cost a fortune to install and costs a fortune to run. If three more similar systems were to be installed, the government would probably not make enough money to pay what it owes to NTR. The only other alternative that I can see is to go back to the old Toll Booth system and who in their right mind would want that.

The current system cost a fortune because of the NTR buy out. I don't believe that it would be that expensive to add additional gantries and link them in. The current situation is unequitable as people who use large sections of the M50 pay nothing but those who cross the river do.

Question: Is the entire M50 run by this company called the M50 concession. There are (were) signs for them on the verges.

mgmt

BrianD wrote: »

The current system cost a fortune because of the NTR buy out. I don't believe that it would be that expensive to add additional gantries and link them in. The current situation is unequitable as people who use large sections of the M50 pay nothing but those who cross the river do.

That's not true. The cost comes from the automatic registration plate cameras they use. They are incredibly expensive to operate.

Run_to_da_hills

mgmt wrote: »

That's not true. The cost comes from the automatic registration plate cameras they use. They are incredibly expensive to operate.

The administration and follow up is the expensive part, especially if you get 4 pages of an invoice every time you forget to pay the toll.

AlekSmart

The current situation is unequitable as people who use large sections of the M50 pay nothing but those who cross the river do.

Sorry BrianD,but it`s about as equitable as its ever going to be as long as the country is run by and for well placed scam merchants.

It should be remembered that the Toll was always on the River Crossing....hence the Toll-Bridge element.

It`s a sad indication of just how punch-drunk we have become that the business of converting it from a Toll-Bridge to a Tolled Motorway raises hardly a whimper.

The Roches and NTR have gotten well-paid for their "risk taking" of building a bridge to link two stretches of publicly funded motorway...some risk that was ......ah well at least we know all that consultancy work by the Late Liam Lawlor paid handsome dividends for somebody :mad:

Flukey

There should be no tolls. They are literally highway robbery. People are paying car tax and duties on fuel and you could raise those slightly to make far more than the tolls. They are there for profit, nothing else. The East Link has paid for itself multiple times over. There should be toll equality on the M50. Everyone should be paying €0.00. After that, they can increase it by whatever percentage they want.

westtip

Said it before on other threads will say it again here - The swiss system of a one year toll tax with a displayed vignette in the windscreen is the best way to go on tolling. No vignette on your windsreen and you get hammered with a fine and the vignette costs 40 Sw Fr per annum (about 30 euro), Of course here it would be more expensive.

The argument about those who use it pay for it is complete tosh.

I don't use the M50 or any toll roads that much - but living in the West of Ireland everytime I go to the shops I effectivly "use" the motorway because that is how my goods have got to me. I would be more than happy to pay a flat fee of say 50 euro as a extra tax displaying an extra tax disc or vignette to say I can use the roads - and the rules woudl have to be strict - no vignette displayed 1000 euro fine or car lost. I am sure the poor buggers using the M50 scam bridge every day woudl go along with this plan. I think this woudl be a much better plan anyway..

Just as a matter of interest does anyone kn ow how much is taken on toll roads every year now?

AlekSmart

According to the Indo article,Westtip,Irish motorists are paying €184 Million per anum in Tolls countrywide...

I would imagine the Government want to at least double that asap !

Flukey

When you drive, you are using fuel. The more you drive, the more fuel you use, and through the taxes on fuels you are paying. That is far more equal, than tolling roads. Someone might cross a toll bridge every day, and yet not drive very far and they get punished for it. Opening new roads with tolls on them is a bit of a scandal. Any politician present at the opening of such a road should hand in their resignation. Then there is the whole stupidity of opening a fabulous piece of infrastructure with a built-in reason not to use it. Get rid of all tolls.

Stark

westtip wrote: »

Said it before on other threads will say it again here - The swiss system of a one year toll tax with a displayed vignette in the windscreen is the best way to go on tolling. No vignette on your windsreen and you get hammered with a fine and the vignette costs 40 Sw Fr per annum (about 30 euro), Of course here it would be more expensive.

How does that differ from a motor tax disc?

corktina

stark choice in these bad days....pay up all round or lose a few hospitals or schools,(etc) its naive to think we can do it any other way.

mgmt

AlekSmart wrote: »

According to the Indo article,Westtip,Irish motorists are paying €184 Million per anum in Tolls countrywide...

I would imagine the Government want to at least double that asap !

I wonder how much it costs for the repair work on regional roads, non-motorway roads that is caused by trucks using them to avoid the tolls.

old_aussie

foggy_lad wrote: »

this will most likely not happen as it would just lead to traffic returning to towns and villages and all the expensive motorways would be empty!

Large toll fees in Aust made many motorists take to the back streets and caused caos and huge slowdowns in Sydney.

Tolls were then reduced.

ILA

As if it wasn't bad enough already. Can't wait to see the vans and cars flipping over the hedges out my way again, should be a bit of excitement!

The Swordsman

AlekSmart wrote: »

It should be remembered that the Toll was always on the River Crossing....hence the Toll-Bridge element.

It`s a sad indication of just how punch-drunk we have become that the business of converting it from a Toll-Bridge to a Tolled Motorway raises hardly a whimper.

The fact that it is a toll bridge does not get away from the fact that the charge is totally unfair and inequitable. I personally believe that this road (or bridge) should not be tolled but I am realistic enough to know that this is not going to happen.

Remember, the toll is there to pay for the cost of building (and widening) the entire road, not just the cost of the bridges.

Converting to a tolled motorway is much fairer than leaving it as it is.

Cookie_Monster

The Swordsman wrote: »

Converting to a tolled motorway is much fairer than leaving it as it is.

no, because traffic will avoid it in order not to pay. the only function of the M50 is to take traffic off local routes and keep it out of the inner city routes by providing a faster more economical route connecting to all the major arteries. Tolling it is madness and defeats the purpose of the whole thing. Toll the interurbans if you must be tolling dedicated relief roads does nothing beneficial :mad:

corktina

The Swordsman wrote: »

.

Remember, the toll is there to pay for the cost of building (and widening) the entire road, not just the cost of the bridges.

QUOTE]

not any more, the tolls are now to help dig us out of the hole we are in

The Swordsman

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

no, because traffic will avoid it in order not to pay. the only function of the M50 is to take traffic off local routes and keep it out of the inner city routes by providing a faster more economical route connecting to all the major arteries. Tolling it is madness and defeats the purpose of the whole thing. Toll the interurbans if you must be tolling dedicated relief roads does nothing beneficial :mad:

I agree that it should not be tolled at all. However it is and this is not going to change. The current system is unfair as only people using the road from Blanchardstown to Lucan have to pay. If a new system is introduced whereby everyone using the road is subject to a toll, it may well mean more people using local routes, but they won't all be using the local routes around Blanch and Lucan.

Vic_08

The Swordsman wrote: »

I agree that it should not be tolled at all. However it is and this is not going to change. The current system is unfair as only people using the road from Blanchardstown to Lucan have to pay. If a new system is introduced whereby everyone using the road is subject to a toll, it may well mean more people using local routes, but they won't all be using the local routes around Blanch and Lucan.

A 2c addition to fuel tax that is ringfenced for the roads authorities and getting rid of all current tolls would bring in far more revenue, cost a fraction to administer, remove the ridiculous incentive for drivers to motorway dodge and reduce congestion.

BrianD

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

no, because traffic will avoid it in order not to pay. the only function of the M50 is to take traffic off local routes and keep it out of the inner city routes by providing a faster more economical route connecting to all the major arteries. Tolling it is madness and defeats the purpose of the whole thing. Toll the interurbans if you must be tolling dedicated relief roads does nothing beneficial :mad:

I don't believe that this will happen because there are no alternative routes. People will pay for convenience. They may not like it but they will.

@aleksmart It is my understanding that the toll bridge is now bought out. The govt could have ended tolling then.

Flukey

corktina wrote: »

The Swordsman wrote: »

.

Remember, the toll is there to pay for the cost of building (and widening) the entire road, not just the cost of the bridges.

QUOTE]

not any more, the tolls are now to help dig us out of the hole we are in

No, the tolls are there to make some people rich. The people at the tollbooths should be wearing masks or balaclavas, like a lot of robbers do. We can dig ourselves out of a hole lots of other ways, like some suggested in this thread. There is no need for any tolls anywhere. The minister has said he supports the role. He should therefore immediately hand in his resignation for being involved in and supporting such a scandalous affair. It was said that it is unfair that some pay a toll on the M50 and some don't. I agree, so get rid of the tolls for everyone.

foggy_lad

westtip wrote: »

Said it before on other threads will say it again here - The swiss system of a one year toll tax with a displayed vignette in the windscreen is the best way to go on tolling. No vignette on your windsreen and you get hammered with a fine and the vignette costs 40 Sw Fr per annum (about 30 euro), Of course here it would be more expensive.

The argument about those who use it pay for it is complete tosh.

I don't use the M50 or any toll roads that much - but living in the West of Ireland everytime I go to the shops I effectivly "use" the motorway because that is how my goods have got to me. I would be more than happy to pay a flat fee of say 50 euro as a extra tax displaying an extra tax disc or vignette to say I can use the roads - and the rules woudl have to be strict - no vignette displayed 1000 euro fine or car lost. I am sure the poor buggers using the M50 scam bridge every day woudl go along with this plan. I think this woudl be a much better plan anyway..

Just as a matter of interest does anyone kn ow how much is taken on toll roads every year now?

the swiss though are unlikely to go into the business of forged windscreen stickers as they and most other europeans are too honest and their countries have a police force capable of massive motorway vehicle checkpoints for checking such things(PULSE does not work). it would not work in ireland.

Stark wrote: »

How does that differ from a motor tax disc?

these also are available in some locals for a few euro more than the free travel pass!

The Swordsman

Was going to open a new thread on this but I was aware this had be discussed before, so I'm reopening an old one instead. Hope nobody minds.

Leo Varadker was on Morning Ireland yesterday saying he was thinking about tolling the entire M50. He said there would be smaller tolls per section than the one for the section between Blanch & Lucan.

He was also talking about putting a toll on the Jack Lynch Tunnel in Cork.

There's a link to the interview here.

AlekSmart

The Swordsman wrote: »

.

Leo Varadker was on Morning Ireland yesterday saying he was thinking about tolling the entire M50. He said there would be smaller tolls per section than the one for the section between Blanch & Lucan.

He was also talking about putting a toll on the Jack Lynch Tunnel in Cork.

There's a link to the interview here.

Its a done deal really,all thats holding them back is the wait for an expert review group to report and then the tendering process to select which breed of pig will get it's snout into the trough.

With the same Minister also boasting about increasing Public Transport Fares,it's more obvious than ever that this Government is every bit as lacking in intelligence as it's crooked predecessor.....90 years of independence has'nt really given us much in that department.

Perhaps President Dana will refuse to sign the necessary papers.... :rolleyes:

ardmacha

Varadkar was on this morning saying that there would be no new tolls, it wasn't worth the effort.

While I am happy enough not to have more tolls to pay, I am slightly suspicious of an answer of zero, surely of all of the options some had more potential than others.

bk

ardmacha wrote: »

While I am happy enough not to have more tolls to pay, I am slightly suspicious of an answer of zero, surely of all of the options some had more potential than others.

Certainly the M9 should be tolled.

robd

ardmacha wrote: »

Varadkar was on this morning saying that there would be no new tolls, it wasn't worth the effort.

While I am happy enough not to have more tolls to pay, I am slightly suspicious of an answer of zero, surely of all of the options some had more potential than others.

From the article:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0118/breaking16.html

It seems to be ruled out on a cost benefit basis.

The reality is that it's easier to keep hitting motor tax and fuel. Tax on fuel, in particular, is a user pays tax.

ardmacha

Certainly the M9 should be tolled.

I agree. Perhaps the toll could have been linked to a contract to widen the M7 from the M9 to the Naas.

AlekSmart

ardmacha wrote: »

I agree. Perhaps the toll could have been linked to a contract to widen the M7 from the M9 to the Naas.

This Toll linking thing has apparently been attempted before....Noel Dempsey linked it into a whole heap of things....:D