Today's Independent story on new NRA tolls

Sponge Bob

Tolls , 3 new tollpoints on the M50 alone, 1 Galway Limerick and 1 Kilcullen Kilkenny. Article not online yet. Projected revenue €100m a year.

By Paul Melia
Wednesday October 06 2010
Motorists will have to pay a string of new motorway tolls under a plan drawn up for the Government, the Irish Independent can reveal.

The new charges would bring hundreds of thousands of motorists into the tolling 'net' for the first time.

They are part of a raft of measures being recommended to the Government by the National Roads Authority (NRA).

Its pre-Budget report calls for tolls to be imposed on motorways in Galway, Wicklow and Kildare, while motorists in Dublin face the prospect of being forced to pay several tolls on the M50 for the first time.

The proposals are in a report commissioned by the Department of Transport in the summer. They will be sent to the Government in the coming weeks. They will arrive as the Government frantically searches for new sources of revenue in advance of a swingeing Budget.

If they decide to bring in the measures in the Budget, it could mean a new and substantial income straight into the Exchequer.

Among the key proposals are that the 31km of Dublin's M50 would be divided into sections that would be tolled. That would mean more motorists paying a toll as they would be charged on how much of the road they use.

The M50 has just one toll at the Westlink. A toll can cost up to €3 for a car. Under the new system, there could be as many as four sections and a charge, for example, of 75c applied to each section.

This means the overall toll would remain the same -- if the motorist drives the length of the M50.

For those who do not normally use the Westlink every day but do use sections of the M50, there would be a charge for the first time. About 110,000 motorists a day pay the toll at the Westlink. Thousands avoid the charge because they don't pass the tolling point at Blanchardstown.

Other key proposals in the NRA's report include:

Tolling access roads to the capital including the M7/N7 from Cork and Limerick. This would hit one of the busiest commuter roads in the country.
Tolls on the N11 from Wicklow and N2 from Monaghan.
The Jack Lynch Tunnel in Cork and southern ring road are also earmarked for a charge.
Tolls on all new major road schemes including the Gort to Tuam road and Arklow/Rathnew upgrade.
Increasing toll charges across the network.
Tolls are unlikely on the M3 (Meath) and M4/6 as charges already apply on these roads.

Angry

The tolls could be levied within a year. News of such proposals will almost certainly spark an angry response from motorists who feel they are carrying a disproportionate burden of taxation.

Regular road-users -- including parents on school runs, shoppers and hauliers -- would bear the brunt of the new charges.

Hauliers would be worst hit, as they pay the highest tolls.

The AA said last night that tolling was an inefficient way of collecting extra revenue, and a survey of motorists it conducted in recent weeks found that 17pc took alternative routes to avoid paying a toll.

"There's a number of reasons why tolled roads are a bad idea," AA spokesman Conor Faughnan said.

"The moment you put a toll on a location, people will avoid that. It is an inherently inefficient way of collecting money. The M50 collected €95m last year, but spent more than €20m collecting it.

"Putting the tax on fuel gives you far more money without byzantine payment systems."

The Local Government Efficiency Review Group said in July that new tolls on national routes could raise between €60m and €100m to pay for new road schemes.

The NRA said last night it had been asked to compile a report on what tolling charges could be introduced.

"We're facilitating a request made by the Government and it is up to the Government to decide how or if it will be implemented," a spokesman said. "The report has not been submitted yet to the department."

Motorists pay about €184m a year in tolls across the country.

- Paul Melia

Irish Independent

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/motorists-face-blitz-of-new-tolls-on-main-roads-2366410.html

Mc Love

It is now!

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/motorists-face-blitz-of-new-tolls-on-main-roads-2366410.html

corktina

Has good points and bad. Its patently not fair to put this charge on petrol as the AA seem to suggest as that that would mean people in the extremities paying for decent roads they never use whilst suffering very bad potholes etc.

murphaph

Agree with the AA: tolling is incredibly innefficient. Slap the tax on petrol/diesel FFS, that way we will also penalise the worst polluters. Tolling the M50 at all is monumentally stupid: it's a bypass for heaven's sake. If this is introduced, the traffic will shift to the likes of the R113/R136. It will have a negative effect on people living along those corridors and road accidents will increase.

Is it just because we have a land border with the UK that taxing the sh!t out of fuel is regarded as a "no-no" because people will fuel up over the border if it gets too expensive?

Tolling the N7 (the non-motorway bit) would surely be illegal as it is a right of way, established as such over centuries.

murphaph

corktina wrote: »

Has good points and bad. Its patently not fair to put this charge on petrol as the AA seem to suggest as that that would mean people in the extremities paying for decent roads they never use whilst suffering very bad potholes etc.

Disagree, just like hospitals and schools...people who never get sick or who have no kids still pay taxes to fund them, and rightly so. We are one nation: people who never use the motorway network are surely capable of realising that it is however required for our economic prosperity to have any chance of recovering. Motorways are not luxury options anymore.

Amtmann

I think the idea of a split M50 toll is perfectly fine. I likewise would have no problem with a tolled M9, M18, M20 and M11. I think lessons should be learned though, and tolls for HGVs should be greatly reduced so as to avoid dodging.

Regarding introducing new tolls on existing routes: If this is the only way to gather necessary revenue for the NRA so that it can continue to replace various goat tracks around the country with quality routes, then so be it. But it will need to a transparent process, with the revenue generated going directly into the NRA capital budget.

The idea of an M7 toll between Naas and Portlaoise might have merit as a revenue-raising exercise, but, given the existence of the plaza at Portlaoise, any new toll would have to be very small: no more than €.80 in my opinion, and again, very low for HGVs. Otherwise you'll just have people going through Monasterevin et al again.

The idea of tolling the Cork SRR and Jack Lynch Tunnel would be foolish until the necessary upgrades (Dunkettle and the flyovers) have been constructed.

We also need to think about the effects of the new speed cameras in tandem with the new tolls. If the Gardaí place cameras along motorways (which I don't think they should do), and then if the NRA come along and toll those sections as well, this will make the motorway network very unattractive to a great many motorists. Perhaps a carrot will be required, such as raising the motorway speed limit to 140 km/h in certain suitable locations.

listermint

What will happen with VRT and Motor Tax, I for one would not be willing to pay these ridiculous charges coupled with a new tax on petrol. Its insane the way they tap up motorists as easy targets.

Tech3

A toll applied to every section of the M50 should have been implemented in the first place. Toll on the Gort-Tuam scheme south of Galway is fine and on the Arklow scheme. The rest is going too far. Why is the M9 left out again? At least put one toll on it like the rest of the inter-urban routes. Putting a toll on the N7 into Dublin would be the last nail in the coffin for this government if it were to go ahead.

Bol_Whelan

tech2 wrote: »

Putting a toll on the N7 into Dublin would be the last nail in the coffin for this government if it were to go ahead.

Have to agree. Tolling a road that still has a set of traffic lights on it is just taking the P***.

As for the coffin, I fear there is no more room to bang in any more nails.

Road-Hog

Compared to contential europe our tolls are fairly cheap........has anyone ever travelled on the French or Italian M'ways? Also take a look at what it costs to cross the Severn Bridge.............

http://www.severnbridge.co.uk/toll_prices.shtml

cork_south

Tolling the Jack Lynch Tunnel and the South Link, LOL
I can imagine the mutiny in Cork if this happens.
Paying a toll to get through a 5 mile tailback thru the tennel after coming thru 2 backed up roundabouts in the Sarsfield road Roundabout and Bandon Road Roundabout.

Great idea NRA.

Jayuu

I do think that tolls for HGVs should be dropped considerably in order to encourage them to use the motorway network, or introduce some sort of scheme where they could pay a set monthly fee per vehicle and get a tag issued which would allow for unlimited journeys.

The idea of putting a toll on the M7/N7 as opposed to the M9 is purely to raise as much money as possible and is crazy. I'm still surprised though that a second toll somewhere close to the Waterford side of the M9 hasn't been considered but I supposed because of the M25 toll it wasn't considered practical.

While the splitting of the M50 into zones is logical and should have been implemented when they were removing the barriers at the Toll Bridge, I can see implementation problems with this for people who use the road on a infrequent basis.

For example, my sister visits me sometimes and comes onto the M50 at Junction 9 (Naas). She then goes north to the end of the motorway. Currently that means she has to pay the €3 fee over the bridge which is fairly straightforward. Now if we have zones on this road she's going to have to know exactly how many toll points she's passed in order to work out how much to pay. I can see lots of confusion arising out of such a plan.

murphaph

Jayuu wrote: »

I do think that tolls for HGVs should be dropped considerably in order to encourage them to use the motorway network, or introduce some sort of scheme where they could pay a set monthly fee per vehicle and get a tag issued which would allow for unlimited journeys.

The idea of putting a toll on the M7/N7 as opposed to the M9 is purely to raise as much money as possible and is crazy. I'm still surprised though that a second toll somewhere close to the Waterford side of the M9 hasn't been considered but I supposed because of the M25 toll it wasn't considered practical.

While the splitting of the M50 into zones is logical and should have been implemented when they were removing the barriers at the Toll Bridge, I can see implementation problems with this for people who use the road on a infrequent basis.

For example, my sister visits me sometimes and comes onto the M50 at Junction 9 (Naas). She then goes north to the end of the motorway. Currently that means she has to pay the €3 fee over the bridge which is fairly straightforward. Now if we have zones on this road she's going to have to know exactly how many toll points she's passed in order to work out how much to pay. I can see lots of confusion arising out of such a plan.

It'll just require a load more money spending on the hardware, IT and support staff to make sure it works. Much better and overly complicated than simply adding tax to petrol.

jack presley

Road-Hog wrote: »

Compared to contential europe our tolls are fairly cheap........has anyone ever travelled on the French or Italian M'ways? Also take a look at what it costs to cross the Severn Bridge.............

http://www.severnbridge.co.uk/toll_prices.shtml

I don't think they pay VRT on the continent, and if they do it's a hell of a lot lower than it is here. So you're not comparing like with like

roosterman71

More discussion on these proposed tolls can be found over in the motors forum

Heartbreak Hank

Why don't they put an electronic toll jobbie on all on and off ramps of the motorways selected for tolling? I believe they do it in Italy and France, I know they do it in Canada. That way you pay proportionally to what you drive. It also decreases the appeal of toll dodging if each junction you pass is only a small incremental saving.

If the tolls are spread all over the country then they could surely all be automated ala M50. I would imagine after the initial capital spend that this would ensure cheaper running costs and time savings?

I'm pretty sure it could be used as a road safety measure by penalising drivers who arrive at their destination before they should have whilst obeying the limit. Obviously this wouldn't be in everyone's interest but you could save money on law enforcement costs.

Would probably mean the end of tractors on the motorway too.

KevR

M9 toll - yes.
The plans for the M50 will be fairer for all.
M18 toll - yes.

Cork SRR toll - No.
N7 into Dublin - No.

It says in the article that they might increase the cost of all existing tolls. Does the money from all tolls (except the M50) not go to private companies?? It won't really boost revenue for the government apart from a little bit of extra revenue from VAT.
If they do increase the M4 toll (€2.90 currently) I will be dodging it out of principle. It's already a rip-off compared to every other toll; I only reluctantly pay it at the moment.

dubhthach

Heartbreak Hank wrote: »

Why don't they put an electronic toll jobbie on all on and off ramps of the motorways selected for tolling? I believe they do it in Italy and France, I know they do it in Canada. That way you pay proportionally to what you drive. It also decreases the appeal of toll dodging if each junction you pass is only a small incremental saving.

I drove on the Autostrada in the north of Italy during the summer. Every entrance/exit ramp has toll setup. As you enter the Autostrada you get a ticket and this is used to calculate your final toll price when you get off at selected exit. Personally I think tolls shouldn't apply to trucks (ala the Port Tunnel), it's safer for everyone to keep trucks on grade seperated motorway then to have them on poor quality R roads.

L1011

jack presley wrote: »

I don't think they pay VRT on the continent, and if they do it's a hell of a lot lower than it is here. So you're not comparing like with like

Some countries do, some don't. Those that do its generally *far* higher than here.

The Indo casually forgets those countries that do have equivalents and says nobody does. But its known for sloppy "journalism".

Irish and Proud

I don't object in principle to the road tolls (except the M7 one), but what I do object to is other motoring costs. IMO, motorway tolls are the way to go, but it works both ways. VRT should be scrapped (only VAT should apply to the price of a car - green taxes are justified though for guzzlers). Also, the price of parking in some areas is a total disgrace, while the cost of maintaining a car is ridiculous.

Also, the scandal of potholes must be eradicated - the motorist has paid for a decent local road network many times over. I think the government should butt out of motoring matters and stop flushing good money the motorists are forced to pay down the toilet. Turn the NRA into something along the lines of a semi state company which would raise its own money to maintain all of the Motorways, National and Regional Routes across the country. The government should only take VAT @ 21% on new cars - green taxes on petrol could go directly to renewable energy development while all other taxes on petrol would go directly to the NRA.

Fair is Fair - it's time for a powerful motor lobby!

Road-Hog

jack presley wrote: »

I don't think they pay VRT on the continent, and if they do it's a hell of a lot lower than it is here. So you're not comparing like with like

Even if we had lower (or no) VRT which along with car tax and other sources of revenue is used for day to day government spending and not dedicated to a fund for new road construction or maintenance, we would still have plenty of moaning about this topic..........are people still so naive as to think road tax, vrt, excise duty on fuel etc is 'ring fenced' for road construction/maintenance.....

Irish and Proud

Road-Hog wrote: »

Even if we had lower (or no) VRT which along with car tax and other sources of revenue is used for day to day government spending and not dedicated to a fund for new road construction or maintenance, we would still have plenty of moaning about this topic..........are people still so naive as to think road tax, vrt, excise duty on fuel etc is 'ring fenced' for road construction/maintenance.....

Ringfenced - you just said it - that's the problem - taxes are raised and flushed down the toilet, the toilet being administrative monsters like the HSE etc.

Yes, it would be naive to scrap these taxes now as the country is in trouble - but after about 2015, it would be high time to streamline this country's finances and get away from the large melting pot concept - it does not work!

This is not directed at you, but I am sick and tired of the powers that be (including the wonderful international experts) that keep ramming down our necks that we the people have to shoulder the burden of reckless behavour on the part of certain individuals who were highly paid to behave otherwise. There is little about accountability regarding the said individuals, and there is little about lessons being learned.

We need change if this country is to become a better place to live.

Amtmann

Road-Hog wrote: »

Even if we had lower (or no) VRT which along with car tax and other sources of revenue is used for day to day government spending and not dedicated to a fund for new road construction or maintenance, we would still have plenty of moaning about this topic..........are people still so naive as to think road tax, vrt, excise duty on fuel etc is 'ring fenced' for road construction/maintenance.....

I think revenue gathered from any new tolls should indeed go into the NRA's capital budget and be used for construction/maintenance purposes. At the very least the revenue should be given to the Department of Transport for investment in transport infrastructure.

trellheim

leaving aside the whinging re taxraising etc and just considering the filthy lucre that can be extracted, what roads have the highest AADT to be taxed ?


N11
N81
M1 at Airport ( the Northlink toll is so far out that if you'd paid at Northlink I'd excuse )

N3,N4 already tolled.

N2 Ashbourne

Galway Outer

Limerick M7 at Newport when the last bit is done.

Cork ring and the Jack Lynch for def.

N20 after Mallow Inbound to Cork.

Kinsale Rd after roundabout.

N25 around Midleton, and again around Dungarvan

the road between Clonmel and Fermoy, cant remember the number. it do be jammers any time I end up on it.



any others ?

ardmacha

The obvious toll is at Newbridge on the M7. This should used to widen the M7 to 3 lanes from the M9 and also to pay for Newlands Cross.

Chris_5339762

Problem is that if the Jack Lynch gets tolled everyone will just go back into Cork again.

Pete_Cavan

murphaph wrote: »

Jayuu wrote: »

While the splitting of the M50 into zones is logical and should have been implemented when they were removing the barriers at the Toll Bridge, I can see implementation problems with this for people who use the road on a infrequent basis.

For example, my sister visits me sometimes and comes onto the M50 at Junction 9 (Naas). She then goes north to the end of the motorway. Currently that means she has to pay the €3 fee over the bridge which is fairly straightforward. Now if we have zones on this road she's going to have to know exactly how many toll points she's passed in order to work out how much to pay. I can see lots of confusion arising out of such a plan.

It'll just require a load more money spending on the hardware, IT and support staff to make sure it works. Much better and overly complicated than simply adding tax to petrol.

IMO the best way to toll the M50 is to have four toll points, barrier free like the existing one, and charge it at €3, maybe reduce it to €2 because it takes so many extra people into the toll net. Have it so that when you pass one toll you pay but you cant be charged again for another hour, ie. the computer has taken your car reg no. in order to charge you the first time but the reg is stored for a hour and cannot be charged in that period. It wouldnt be that difficult to implement IT-wise, even excel could be used to do this on a smaller scale.

dubhthach

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

IMO the best way to toll the M50 is to have four toll points, barrier free like the existing one, and charge it at €3, maybe reduce it to €2 because it takes so many extra people into the toll net. Have it so that when you pass one toll you pay but you cant be charged again for another hour, ie. the computer has taken your car reg no. in order to charge you the first time but the reg is stored for a hour and cannot be charged in that period. It wouldnt be that difficult to implement IT-wise, even excel could be used to do this on a smaller scale.

Given the disaster the government had when trying to implement a payroll system for the HSE (100million euro to IBM without a result). I'd have serious doubts that they could implement even a system as logical as one you outline.

limklad

dubhthach wrote: »

Given the disaster the government had when trying to implement a payroll system for the HSE (100million euro to IBM without a result). I'd have serious doubts that they could implement even a system as logical as one you outline.

Do not forget they screwed up the simple e-voting machines too. I have no doubt it will be a private contractor who will operate the Toll booths, and they have all the rights of the full Tax payers built roads and take most of the Toll. That the way our government does things in this country!!