Disrespectful, hypocritical, dishonest?

sink

I was confirmed into the Church of Ireland even though I was an atheist.

It was my own personal choice, I was not forced or coerced into doing it. I did it for a friend who wanted to be confirmed but didn't want to go through it alone. I was about 15 at the time and being entirely honest I also did it for the money.

It meant nothing to me, I really don't care about religion in the same way many here do. I'm not anti-it or pro it, just entirely apathetic towards it. I do find it interesting from a anthropological perspective however.

One might say I was disrespectful, I would say that disrespect implies respect is due.

One might say I was hypocritical, however I am not anti-religious, what people choose to believe does not concern me, so long as it does not greatly impose upon me.

One might say I was dishonest, and I have to concede on this point, I probably should not have fooled people into thinking I believe in any of it. My friend knew that I was just going through the motions but the priest and the bishop most certainly did not, let alone my parents and god parents who gave up their time and money to go through with the charade.

Anyway it's long in the past now, don't know exactly why I'm digging up old bones. Just thought it was interesting if anyone was ever looking for an example of an atheist getting confirmed.

Black Swan

You were 15.

Galvasean

sink wrote: »

and being entirely honest I also did it for the money.

Shh... me too

sink

Galvasean wrote: »

Shh... me too

Yeah I had a feeling many others did the same. Looking back now I do feel slightly guilty, but why should money even be given for a religious affirmation ceremony, surely it only corrupts the ceremony? It should only be about ones spiritual conviction, I don't understand why the religious would choose to have it this way. Not that it matters to me.

Beruthiel

sink wrote: »

Looking back now I do feel slightly guilty

Don't feel guilt for what your 15 year old self did. You were still a kid.

Des Carter

I wouldn't worry about it.

Honesty is over-rated.

Rev Hellfire

One might say you're thinking too much...

robindch

Des Carter wrote: »

Honesty is over-rated.

Amongst the non-religious, you'll find it often isn't.

sink

Tbh, I'm not that bothered about it. It was more the discussion going on about giving a reading in a Church at a wedding/funeral that got me thinking about it.

seamus

The vast majority of people brought up as Catholics in this country received communion at 7/8 and were confirmed at 11/12.

The only thing we looked forward to in either case was the money. The ceremony and the meaning of it was irrelevant. Was that wrong? No. We were children. Children are materialistic.

DeVore

If not really believing in it but participating in the ceremony and putting on a facade for others is a crime....


.... we better just wall around the coast of this island and be done with it.

DeV.

Gleise 581g

I certainly wouldn't worry about disrespecting religious belief, since it was forced down my throat all my life. I find that they demand respect for there beliefs, yet are hurtful and deeply patronising towards my, and other peoples, worldview. There is a high level of hypocracy amoungst the religious(or at least my family and friends. Obviously there must be lots of respectful religious people out there, I just haven't met them yet).

sink

seamus wrote: »

The vast majority of people brought up as Catholics in this country received communion at 7/8 and were confirmed at 11/12.

The only thing we looked forward to in either case was the money. The ceremony and the meaning of it was irrelevant. Was that wrong? No. We were children. Children are materialistic.

It's a little different in the COI. You can't receive communion until you have been confirmed and you must choose to be confirmed of your own free accord. It's seen more as an affirmation of faith and less as a rite of passage as in the Catholic church. Most will choose to have their confirmation at 13-14, but you can also choose to have it at any later age or not at all. I didn't bother with it at first but went through with it later, at the behest of a friend.

MagicMarker

I'm 27, if I were to get confirmed into the CoI would I get money?

Where do I sign? :pac:

sink

MagicMarker wrote: »

I'm 27, if I were to get confirmed into the CoI would I get money?

Where do I sign? :pac:

Only if you can convince your parents, god parents, grand parents aunties and uncles of your new found religiosity and then extort money from them.:D

seamus

sink wrote: »

It's a little different in the COI. You can't receive communion until you have been confirmed and you must choose to be confirmed of your own free accord. It's seen more as an affirmation of faith and less as a rite of passage as in the Catholic church. Most will choose to have their confirmation at 13-14, but you can also choose to have it at any later age or not at all. I didn't bother with it at first but went through with it later, at the behest of a friend.

Ultimately though you were still only a child. At 15 you lack the comprehensive skills to examine what it is that you are doing are weigh that up against your personal philosophies. As a young teenager you would have seen the reward with little or no possible downsides and you went for it.

You can't be blamed for that. You can blame the COI for allowing children to make contracts that they are incapable of agreeing to you - legally and mentally.

Dougla2

PPFFFt you guys have no willpower I said no to confirmation being promised money etc. at 12 years old because it was dishonest and i stand up for what I (dis) believe in

Improbable

I never had to make that choice as I was raised atheist from birth but at a young age, I probably would have done it just for the money.

bnt

I was "confirmed" too, at 13, but I was already on the way out; my mother had died a few months earlier, while the confirmation process was already underway. I didn't feel like arguing, and it was what she wanted, but the confirmation was just about the last time I went to church. I don't remember signing a contract, so ... it has as much meaning as I choose to ascribe to it i.e. none.

Goduznt Xzst

sink wrote: »

One might say I was disrespectful...
One might say I was hypocritical...
One might say I was dishonest...

One might say you are human... Welcome!

Chances are you are going to be hypocritical, dishonest and disrespectful to someone today. We all will.

Dan133269

sink wrote: »

being entirely honest I also did it for the money.

in terms of a Catholic Confirmation, can you imagine any 12 year old boy or girl who doesn't believe in God, weighing up the principle of not getting confirmed or just going through with it to get over 1,000 euro. Well **** me that's a no brainer

strobe

Dan133269 wrote: »

in terms of a Catholic Confirmation, can you imagine any 12 year old boy or girl who doesn't believe in God, weighing up the principle of not getting confirmed or just going through with it to get over 1,000 euro. Well **** me that's a no brainer

:eek: Dan Smurfit is it?

sink

Dan133269 wrote: »

in terms of a Catholic Confirmation, can you imagine any 12 year old boy or girl who doesn't believe in God, weighing up the principle of not getting confirmed or just going through with it to get over 1,000 euro. Well **** me that's a no brainer

Eh, in my case it was more like £250. I almost feel cheated, although considering this was pre-celtic tiger madness, £200 was still a lot of dough for a 15 year old. I think I bought a N64 with it, it was new out at the time. Considering how much fun I had with it, it was worth selling out my principles:D.

Goduznt Xzst

sink wrote: »

I think I bought a N64 with it, it was new out at the time. Considering how much fun I had with it, it was worth selling out my principles:D.

In fairness, getting a N64 was probably more of a religious experience for a child than any Confirmation...

"OMG! 64!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpJyG7B6tAI

Dougla2

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

In fairness, getting a N64 was probably more of a relgious experience for a child than any Confirmation...

"OMG! 64!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpJyG7B6tAI

I wasn't of this generation but luckily i picked up as limited edition pichachu n64 at a car boot sale

Galvasean

sink wrote: »

Eh, in my case it was more like £250. I almost feel cheated, although considering this was pre-celtic tiger madness, £200 was still a lot of dough for a 15 year old. I think I bought a N64 with it, it was new out at the time. Considering how much fun I had with it, it was worth selling out my principles:D.

I did exactlythe smae thing. How else is a 12 year old gonna buy an N64?

Beruthiel

Galvasean wrote: »

I did exactlythe smae thing. How else is a 12 year old gonna buy an N64?

The lure of Zelda was just too much.
Very understandable.

Delicate_Dlite

aw the lure of money to sell your soul.:D

I was raised catholic, I made my first holy communion and confirmation. I never really latched on to the idea of belief, I do remember, saying "well what if the bible was just like Goosebumps, that got lost and ppl took it as fact".

However my family were fairly strict, I didn't have to believe in it, but until I was an adult, it was their choice not mine. :rolleyes: So I insisted on the most expensive communion dress and acc, it was the only way I could rebel .

But in fairness I made over 2 grand. :cool:

ColmDawson

Delicate_Dlite wrote: »

I do remember saying "well what if the bible was just like Goosebumps, that got lost and ppl took it as fact".

Somewhere in the distance, you hear a cock crowing. It makes you feel sick.
"Uhhhhhhh." A low moan escapes from your dry throat. You feel ashamed for denying Jesus three times. You know Jesus is being brought before Pontius Pilate ... but is it too late to save him?

If you admit to being a friend of Jesus and try to save him, turn to page 346!
If you do nothing and then visit Jesus' tomb in a few days, turn to page 238!

Dan133269

Dan133269 wrote: »

in terms of a Catholic Confirmation, can you imagine any 12 year old boy or girl who doesn't believe in God, weighing up the principle of not getting confirmed or just going through with it to get over 1,000 euro. Well **** me that's a no brainer

Eh what? I got a pair of rollerblades and that's it

MagicMarker

bluewolf wrote: »

Eh what? I got a pair of rollerblades and that's it

Kids these days literally get hundreds!!! Once the confirmation is done it's time to pay a visit to every single living fúckin' relative to collect payment!! :rolleyes:

I remember for my confirmation, I got about 80 sterling and a McDonalds!!

seamus

MagicMarker wrote: »

Kids these days literally get hundreds!!! Once the confirmation is done it's time to pay a visit to every single living fúckin' relative to collect payment!! :rolleyes:

I remember for my confirmation, I got about 80 sterling and a McDonalds!!

I don't remember what I got either time. I think it was around £100.

The parents are half the problem these days. TV3 had a show on travellers a while back where they showed a traveller communion. The parents marched the girl into the local pub and went up to everybody - strangers and family alike - asking for money.

And it's not a traveller thing - a mate of mine was in a pub once when one of the regulars, known for being a hardman/scumbag comes in with his daughter, walking up to everyone in the pub - "She just made her communion today. Give her €20". With malice implied.

Seemingly family are expected to handover a minimum of €50 and everyone else who's unlucky enough to cross your path is obliged to give you €20. :rolleyes:

Tim Robbins

Actually here's an interesting question for the other atheist parents out there...

Any ideas what you'll do when confirmations and communions are happening and you kids are peeved because they miss out on an opportunity for some money?

Would it be a bit too shallow if you offered them the average collection for a communion / confirmation yourself if they don't carry through with the ceremonies?

For example, you said, ok Jonny, you'd get 300 euro if you went through with this, however if you don't want to go through with it, I'll give you the 300 euro? You decision.

Just throwing it out there...

Mark Hamill

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Actually here's an interesting question for the other atheist parents out there...

Any ideas what you'll do when confirmations and communions are happening and you kids are peeved because they miss out on an opportunity for some money?

Would it be a bit too shallow if you offered them the average collection for a communion / confirmation yourself if they don't carry through with the ceremonies?

For example, you said, ok Jonny, you'd get 300 euro if you went through with this, however if you don't want to go through with it, I'll give you the 300 euro? You decision.

Just throwing it out there...

Wont that, to theists, be atheist parents bribing their kids to be (act) atheists?
What ever happened to just telling your kids no? Why would you need to bribe them?

ColmDawson

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Wont that, to theists, be atheist parents bribing their kids to be (act) atheists?
What ever happened to just telling your kids no? Why would you need to bribe them?

It could be a way of making the child's choice be about what they believe, rather than about how they can make the most money.

Mark Hamill

ColmDawson wrote: »

It could be a way of making the child's choice be about what they believe, rather than about how they can make the most money.

And if they take the money and run, then what they believe is that they want the money. Why reward that with €300?
Tell them no money either way. Same result. What does a 12 year old need with €300 anyway?

Dougla2

Mark Hamill wrote: »

And if they take the money and run, then what they believe is that they want the money. Why reward that with €300?
Tell them no money either way. Same result. What does a 12 year old need with €300 anyway?

we all ready went through this an N64

ColmDawson

Mark Hamill wrote: »

And if they take the money and run, then what they believe is that they want the money. Why reward that with €300?
Tell them no money either way. Same result. What does a 12 year old need with €300 anyway?

As long as the playing field is level, that's all I was pointing out.

Goduznt Xzst

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Wont that, to theists, be atheist parents bribing their kids to be (act) atheists?

No. Loads of parents bribe their children with rewards all the time, mostly to maintain their happiness and the parents level of peace. It has nothing to do with being Atheists, it has everything to do with being a bad parent.

The entitlement issues of this generation is all down to parents who have massive amounts of disposable income to maintain the happiness of their children with bribes. These children are raised to believe society owes them everything, and that they deserve it. Without personal, material reward, they have been trained to do nothing.

It's a quick alternative to actually sitting down with the child and having to explain the situation in a manner that they will understand, if at all. Just give them money and toys that all their friends have. Maintain their happiness. To hell with what it might be doing to the person they will become in the future.

Truley

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Actually here's an interesting question for the other atheist parents out there...

Any ideas what you'll do when confirmations and communions are happening and you kids are peeved because they miss out on an opportunity for some money?

Would it be a bit too shallow if you offered them the average collection for a communion / confirmation yourself if they don't carry through with the ceremonies?

For example, you said, ok Jonny, you'd get 300 euro if you went through with this, however if you don't want to go through with it, I'll give you the 300 euro? You decision.

Just throwing it out there...

I know personally for me making my communion/confirmation was more about being a part of the group, getting to dress up, the attention etc My primary school had alot of non-catholics so they were always very conscious of children feeling excluded from the whole process.

In my school when ever a group was making a communion or confirmation, the non catholics in the class would be invited to dress up (a big deal for the girls) and watch the ceremony in the church. Afterwards everyone in the class and their parents were invited to a party in the school. So nobody was left feeling excluded from the day itself.

As for the money aspect, because it was an ET school and usually only a small proportion of the class were doing it, communions etc were far more 'low key' and less flashy than they seemed to be in other schools. That's just my own observation, I don't know if it's like that everywhere. I know my parents certainly didn't make a big deal about it, I didn't really dress up and I got feck all money, less than fifty pounds and this was the early 2000s

In short I don't know what I would do if I was in that situation with my own children. I would hope that by then teachers and parents will have become a little more sensitive to the pressure it puts parents under, and that they will be encouraged to play down the materialistic aspect of communions. If it really became an issue I would probably just let my kids do the ritual.

Galvasean

Beruthiel wrote: »

The lure of Zelda was just too much.
Very understandable.

I don't think Zelda had been released yet. It was Super Mario 64 that got me... then Goldeneye. man, the first year of that console was great. Then they just decided, "Darn, we'll never make games better than those, let's not try!"
I remember being in Electronics Boutique (before it changed to GAME, I'm talkin' OLD SKOOL!!!!). Couldn't make up my mind on the Playstation or N64.
Me: "Hmmm Playstation has that Jurassic Park 2 movie tie in game... N64 has Mario."
Thank Christ (tee-hee) I picked the N64!

Oh yeah the topic...

If i have kids chances are they probably wont be doing the whole Confirmation thing (unless the found Jesus on their own accord), so I reckon buying them a nice present -whatever Nintendo's latest is, something I can play too :cool:) should make up for the lack of Confirmation monies. I wouldn't give them the cash, they'd only drink it.

Mark Hamill

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

No. Loads of parents bribe their children with rewards all the time, mostly to maintain their happiness and the parents level of peace. It has nothing to do with being Atheists, it has everything to do with being a bad parent.

Oh, I would see it as bad parenting too, I was just pointing out the way theists would see it.

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

The entitlement issues of this generation is all down to parents who have massive amounts of disposable income to maintain the happiness of their children with bribes. These children are raised to believe society owes them everything, and that they deserve it. Without personal, material reward, they have been trained to do nothing.

It's a quick alternative to actually sitting down with the child and having to explain the situation in a manner that they will understand, if at all. Just give them money and toys that all their friends have. Maintain their happiness. To hell with what it might be doing to the person they will become in the future.

What I want to know is, what happens if a kid hears about the Islamic festival of eid? One whole month of money giving. Should the parents then offer the kid money for a whole month in order to balance the financial incentive that may attract the kid to Islam?

Mark Hamill

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Oh, I would see it as bad parenting too, I was just pointing out the way theists would see it.


What I want to know is, what happens if a kid hears about the Islamic festival of eid? One whole month of money giving. Should the parents then offer the kid money for a whole month in order to balance the financial incentive that may attract the kid to Islam?

Eid is 3 days
Ramadan is about a month, but that's the starving yourself part

Mark Hamill

bluewolf wrote: »

Eid is 3 days
Ramadan is about a month, but that's the starving yourself part

I'll have to double check, but a Malaysian muslim girl I work with was doing eid celebrations stuff for a number of weeks after ramadan finished. She, and her friends, even got money from some Malaysian diplomat that came to an event about 3 weekends ago in Malaysian hall.

(I suppose the month long celebrations could be more of a Malay thing than a muslim thing, but my point would still stand though, with "month" changed to 3 days)

Mark Hamill

Mark Hamill wrote: »

I'll have to double check, but a Malaysian muslim girl I work with was doing eid celebrations stuff for a number of weeks after ramadan finished. She, and her friends, even got money from some Malaysian diplomat that came to an event about 3 weekends ago in Malaysian hall.

(I suppose the month long celebrations could be more of a Malay thing than a muslim thing, but my point would still stand though, with "month" changed to 3 days)

Muslim guy I work with pointed one work day as being Eid, so I was surprised to see 3 days on wiki, but then it was the weekend this time so maybe that's why. He hasn't done anything for it since
Maybe its a malay thing

robindch

bluewolf wrote: »

Muslim guy I work with pointed one work day as being Eid, so I was surprised to see 3 days on wiki,

Haven't looked at the wiki page, but AFAIR, Eid starts from the time upon which the moon is first seen in some position by suitably qualified religious astronomers. The date and time from which one can start looking vary according to which branch of islamic belief the believer holds is true.

It's not something as simple as christmas.

robindch

robindch wrote: »

Haven't looked at the wiki page, but AFAIR, Eid starts from the time upon which the moon is first seen in some position by suitably qualified religious astronomers. The date and time from which one can start looking vary according to which branch of islamic belief the believer holds is true.

It's not something as simple as christmas.

Oh I know yeah, first full moon again from what he was saying, and depends on when the mosque declares it. What I meant was he said it was that particular day, whenever it was (not a fixed date), and he was able to eat at break again

Mark Hamill

robindch wrote: »

Haven't looked at the wiki page, but AFAIR, Eid starts from the time upon which the moon is first seen in some position by suitably qualified religious astronomers. The date and time from which one can start looking vary according to which branch of islamic belief the believer holds is true.

It's not something as simple as christmas.

I remember my friend this year was a little worried coming up to the start of eid as there was some celebratory meal scheduled for a Thursday or Friday (I forget which), but nobody knew when eid would officially start. It was only on the Wednesday right before that she found the official anouncement.