Vegan Vet

Maya74

Hi there,

Does anyone know of a Vegan Vet in Dublin or surrounding areas, please?

Thanks

sweet-rasmus

You might be hard pressed to meet a vet who is also vegan! Is there a particular reason you are looking for the advice/help from a vegan? I'm sure your local vet will have your pet's best interest at heart.

henryporter

Probably something to do with a lot of animal drugs being tested on animals? I don't know of anyone like that but good luck tracking them down

Maya74

Oh, I know he does and I would never doubt it. And maybe he is vegan, but I can’t ask because if I do and he says no, then where do I go from there? Both my dog and I like him and he is a good Vet, but this issue is really bothering me. It isn’t really to do with him as a person per se - maybe I should have explained or rephrased my question.

Please bear in mind that this post is just how I feel and I am only living my own life as true to my beliefs as I can, given the society I live in. I am very against the opinion that animals are for human’s use. I see no difference in value between humans and animals. In other words, I truly believe that all creatures have an equal right to be on this planet (and should be treated fairly and kindly) - I just believe that that’s the way life is on this planet. I understand that nature can be cruel but that is merely a survival tactic - a kill is never wasted and there is a balance of sorts in the wild. There seems to be no balance in our society.

I am very opposed to animal testing, and the breeding and enslaving of animals for food. Having said all that, I am not going to change the world! All I can do is try to make the right choices as I see them. I live with a Border Collie and to be honest, I think I would be lost without her company. I am also a mother and wife which I obviously value too! When it comes to medicine for the family, I do not agree with giving money to companies who test on animals for a human’s gain. Therefore, I look to natural plant based remedies. Obviously, society is the way it is and choice can often be limited, but I can only do the best I can with what I can source.

Then it would follow, that any treatment our dog should get when she is feeling ill would be natural as well. I will not change the minds of the CEO’s of these multi-national drug companies simply by telling them how I feel. They won’t listen and they will do what they want anyway. They don’t care about animals that don’t have names (ie non-pets) and as far as I can see, these companies only care about money and so I am not going to give them mine. It’s all I can do - as I said, I am not going to change society. So it would follow, that I should be able to care for my dog without harming any other animals in the process.

It is very hard to live your life according to your convictions in this society but I have to do the best I can. Anyway, that is why I was looking for a Vegan Vet. I thought they might have alternative ideas on how to treat animals without going down the ‘normal’ route of drugs from major drug companies that test on animals. It just seems a huge contradiction to me that a Vet who spends all day looking after valued pets, would then support companies who torture and abuse other animals, and also support the farming industry by eating meat etc. The Vet I have is a very good Vet but this contradiction just doesn’t sit well with me.

PS: Thanks for the replies, and sorry for the late answer to your question, I started typing this up earlier then had to work, until now.

Breezer

Hi Maya,

I'm writing this as a vegan and a soon-to-be (human) doctor.

First of all, I have the utmost respect for your beliefs, many of which I share. I am therefore not going to try to change your mind, and am in fact going to start by saying I have heard of a vet that (to my knowledge) embraces complementary therapies for animals, as well as conventional veterinary medicine. Unfortunately, she's based in Armagh, but I would assume she has contacts around the country. I'll try to source contact details for her and I'll post here when I get them.

But I would implore you to please make sure you thoroughly discuss any healthcare issues (human or animal) that you have with a qualified doctor or vet. While I'm not totally against complementary medicine, there is a lot of quackery out there that does a very good job of masquerading as health science. I am not a parent, but I believe that despite my deep-seated beliefs regarding the rights of animals, that in a life or death situation I would put my child before a lab animal. This is only natural: most wild animals would protect their young before anything else.

Just because a treatment is labelled "natural" does not mean it does what it claims to do, nor does it mean it's free of harmful side effects. I'm the first to admit that conventional medicine has its problems, not least animal testing. But in the vast majority of cases these problems have been well researched, we understand them, medical professionals can inform their patients about them, and together they can then make an informed decision regarding treatment. Most "natural" remedies and treatments offer no such benefits. The same level of research doesn't exist because without "big pharma," there simply is no money to fund it. If you choose to use these remedies, you are, in many cases, taking a leap of faith.

Anyway, I don't mean to be lecturing. Sorry if I've come across that way. You seem like a very logical, intelligent person, and no doubt you've thought about this a lot already. I've just seen too many people be taken in by the dubious claims of those pushing the "natural" agenda, who have regretted it later, and it's something quite close to my heart.

I'll try find you the name and contact details of that vet.

<snip>

Please, please, please do not take this as an endorsement by me of homeopathy! I am extremely dubious of that particular line of work, to put it mildly. I have never had any professional dealings with this woman either, so I'm not even recommending her as a vet, I just happen to be acquainted with her through a colleague. But as she is a fully qualified vet, if you already have your mind made up about complementary therapies, I think talking to her may be a good starting point.

sweet-rasmus

Thanks for the info Breezer. It's best to recommend names by pm, just in case anyone takes issue with her after getting ideas in the thread, so I'll take it out and pm it to Maya74.

Maya74

Hi Breezer,

Many thanks for your reply. In an ideal world, I would like not to have to use harmful chemicals for anything: health, hygiene, preservation of food etc. and I do my best when buying products to avoid them. That is why I go to the health store because many products do not have ‘nasties’ in them and many are vegan. I am all for a simple life! However, I am actually a person who believes in science and our understanding of it. I suppose it’s really that I disagree with the harming of other species to further our own knowledge. I just don’t think we have any supreme right to make decisions regarding the lives of other species. Animal testing just seems to be bizarre, in my opinion. If you would need to test a product/chemical at all, surely that tells you that there is a problem straight off?!!! Why not test it on your own hand etc? My main problem would be that if you asked the scientists to test the product on their own child first, would they say ‘no way’? If so, why test it on an animal? That just does not make sense to me and it really upsets me. I can’t understand why the products in the health store (which are scientifically developed too but only use plant based materials) are not for sale in supermarkets. If they were, more people would buy them (whether they thought about this issue or not!) and it would be the start of a turn around. I don’t think these health store products should be seen as being either ‘elite’ or ‘off the wall’ - they should be an option for all shoppers the same as other products that are not vegan/plant based etc.

I think the whole thinking behind the field of medicine should be looked at. I obviously don’t have all the facts and it is probably impossible in any case, to get the truth because you can find statistics to back up any argument (eg: whether animal testing is actually of benefit at all etc.), however, I just have to do something rather than blindly follow routine. I am not sure if it is complementary therapy that I am interested in per se. I just want to see if there is any choice out there - are there any treatments/medicines that cure ailments without causing suffering to others? If you take food in the supermarket for example: you can buy bananas that the supermarket want you to buy (special offers etc. with no background information) or you can make the choice to buy fairtrade and do some good. Obviously I haven’t been to where the bananas are grown and so I don’t know for sure what the real story is, but I have to have faith in people on some level and to trust that what they say is true.

Having said all of the above, my Daughter and Husband both have asthma and we buy their inhalers without question - because they work. I am always researching other ways to treat the condition and we make sure that they avoid foods that aggravate the condition, so we do our best to keep it under control in whatever ways that we can. My Husband appreciates how I feel about these issues and ‘lets me away with it’ most of the time but he has a different view on life and the order of the species. He is in no way a cruel person but he doesn’t see things as black and white as I do. He thinks deeply about things too but sees them differently, so in some cases, I do have to go against my beliefs and support animal tested products like medicine, but as I said before, I can only do the best I can and be true to myself.

My husband isn’t vegetarian/vegan, however, when he does the weekly shopping, he only buys vegetarian suitable products. The only non-vegetarian food item that we buy is meat (which isn’t alot and is organic & free-range). Incidentally, we don’t buy much medicine at all either. We are very rarely sick, thank goodness.

If it was a life or death situation regarding our Daughter, where she would have to forego medicine because it was tested on animals, my husband’s view would be followed because I do not feel I have the right to make that decision for her/them. However, if it was the same situation for me, then if I would rather take life as it came and if I couldn’t get better without supporting animal testing, then so be it - but I would make it known to the company that the choice that I had to make was because of their practices.

I suppose my main issue is that I wish large companies could have more integrity and put all their knowledge and R&D into products that are good for all - people/animals alike.

Ps: thanks for the pm and good luck with your finals!

Breezer

sweet-rasmus wrote: »

Thanks for the info Breezer. It's best to recommend names by pm, just in case anyone takes issue with her after getting ideas in the thread, so I'll take it out and pm it to Maya74.

Cheers.

Maya74 wrote: »

Hi Breezer,

Hello! I didn't mean for you to have to justify yourself to me, sorry if it came across that way. I agree with most of what you've said, and I do certainly intend researching animal testing properly in the future.

There are a couple of things I feel the need to reply to though:

If you would need to test a product/chemical at all, surely that tells you that there is a problem straight off?!!! Why not test it on your own hand etc?

I wouldn't agree with that. We need to test products because nothing can be taken for granted in science. A very simplified (and clichéd) example: most new drugs, unless it's a completely new breakthrough, are variations on older ones, with slightly different chemical structures. Water (H2O) and hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) are very similar chemically, but drink H2O2 and you have a problem.

There's a lot of reasons why testing on your hand etc. wouldn't work. For example, there's huge differences in how different people will react to the same drug. Gender, height, weight, age, race, chemicals present in certain people's livers, other drugs people might be taking etc. all play a part. To allow for this, we need large scale, carefully observed trials before a drug can be licenced for the mass market. In order to carry out these trials, we need volunteers, otherwise you're getting into Nazi territory (no one pull Godwin on me here, it was a real issue, and remains one in some countries). But just as most people don't worry about eating meat, most people aren't going to be willing to take a drug that hasn't already shown promising results in an organism similar to them (i.e. a mammal).

On a more positive note, the human genome project has hugely advanced our understanding of how an individual will respond to a particular drug. While I can't see it eliminating animal testing completely, it will almost certainly mean a move (however small) away from some of the current protocols.

I am always researching other ways to treat the condition and we make sure that they avoid foods that aggravate the condition, so we do our best to keep it under control in whatever ways that we can.

Glad to hear it! Medicine isn't all about popping pills, we're big into lifestyle modifications too! Just be careful where you're doing your research. There's a lot of misinformation floating around the internet, on leaflets, etc. I'd strongly encourage you (or anyone else) to talk to your GP before trying anything new. You don't have to take any drugs off him/her, just have a chat.

However, if it was the same situation for me, then if I would rather take life as it came and if I couldn’t get better without supporting animal testing, then so be it - but I would make it known to the company that the choice that I had to make was because of their practices.

That's your right as an autonomous adult, and any decent doctor will respect that right. Be prepared for them to argue their point like crazy first though!

Ps: thanks for the pm and good luck with your finals!

Thank you! Although sweet-rasmus wrote the pm, not me.

Maya74

Sorry Breezer! I am only new to the forum world and I was expecting just the name of a Vet!! to be posted up!! I got myself all 'confusst'!!!

Thanks for your reply. I guess my whole point about the issue is that people are not as quick to offer themselves up for trial yet they don't think twice about running the trials on animals. I take the point about people reacting differently to drugs. Wouldn't it follow then though, that results would be as unreliable, when testing the drugs destined for humans, on animals?

I just feel that with a bit of integrity, soul searching and extra care, we could do things differently and not subject animals to the torture that we do.

Breezer

Maya74 wrote: »

I take the point about people reacting differently to drugs. Wouldn't it follow then though, that results would be as unreliable, when testing the drugs destined for humans, on animals?

I don't believe so. People do react differently to each other as I said, but the effects should be broadly similar in most humans if the drug is any good. The effects observed in humans should also be broadly similar to the ones observed in other mammals (but you're right, they aren't always, and some trials that seemed to go swimmingly in animals have been pulled rather quickly at the human stage when things started going wrong).

The thing is, you are simply not going to find a large enough group of people who meet the criteria for a drug trial (e.g. right age, having the right medical condition, not having other medical conditions, etc.) who will be willing to allow these drugs to be used in their treatment without some sort of objective evidence that the drug isn't going to do them harm. While tests on cells and tissue cultures etc. are possible (and are carried out before the animal stage), they don't offer the similarity to a living human as a living animal offers.

Without these large-scale human trials, the drug wouldn't receive a licence, wouldn't make it to market, and wouldn't do patients any good.

Whether or not you agree with the ethics of this is obviously up to you. But approaching this from a purely pragmatic level, most people would prefer the decades-longer, far healthier lifespans that we've achieved since the pharmacological revolution took off, to a world with no animal testing where most people die of horrific infections in their 20s, 30s and 40s. Incidentally, in a world like that, I reckon animal rights would be even further down the priority list than they are today. Also, the fact that these tests are being performed by big business means they are tightly regulated, subject to scrutiny by ethics boards, require justification before any animal can be used for testing, etc. This simply wasn't the case in the past, where small-scale researchers could pretty much do what they liked with an animal (or in some cases children -have a look at the Little Albert study) with no consequences.

Sorry if I sound harsh. This is something that troubles me too and something I've thought long and hard about. As a teenager I swore I'd never get into any sort of science field where animal testing occurred. I guess my views became more relativist over time.

Maya74

Yes, Little Albert, I studied that in college and I remember thinking that was a really mean thing to do to a child. Having said that, I was always more outraged at the shunts that were put in the dogs being tested by Pavlov, to collect their saliva!

I will just have to accept that I don't care for much of what human's in power get up to, at this moment in time, on this planet. I can only try to do the right thing as I see it, while I am passing through. I simply can't justify the idea that humans have the right to shorten animals lives in order to sustain their own.

henryporter

I don't know if this is of benefit, but judging by the way the thread has evolved this chap may be of help <snip>. He's a homeopathic vet so might be able to give you some direction. Haven't used his services for our mutts but the Mrs. went to a day long course of his a few years back at the <snip>and had lots of good things to say about his philosophies.

Mod note
Please send personal recommendations of vets/other professionals via private message

Maya74

Many thanks for that information.

Chuchoter

Maya74 wrote: »

Animal testing just seems to be bizarre, in my opinion. If you would need to test a product/chemical at all, surely that tells you that there is a problem straight off?!!! Why not test it on your own hand etc? My main problem would be that if you asked the scientists to test the product on their own child first, would they say ‘no way’? If so, why test it on an animal?

If it was a life or death situation regarding our Daughter, where she would have to forego medicine because it was tested on animals, my husband’s view would be followed because I do not feel I have the right to make that decision for her/them.

I've a few problems with what you're saying here. First off, I disagree with animal testing for frivolous things like make-up and perfume and I'm not a vegetarian or vegan, though I eat very little meat. However, in terms of medicine, what you're saying is kind of crazy. You can't just hand a new MS drug to someone, say throw it on your hand and see what happens and then their entire myelin sheath dissolves because you didn't test it. Thousands of people with families would die. These aren't just moisturizers, these are powerful drugs we're talking about. If you got MS and we did that, YOU would die. Don't ask scientists, ask yourself, would you test it on your daughter in all honesty? Is a dog worth more to you than your daughter? Frankly the second thing you said tells me you wouldn't. You are essentially agreeing with your husband, in not making a decision you are making the decision that you are being unreasonable, and he is right.

Maya74

I think my husband's view on this is unreasonable but we are both involved in raising our daughter and he is more forceful with his opinions than I am. In any case, I sometimes don't have an alternative to offer and that is my gripe! (Incidentally, my daughter has just announced that she would rather die, if she could have some influence on the policies regarding testing drugs/animal testing. She is only 12 but says she wants to study law/be a legislator/politician etc so she can be influential in policy change).

I value and love my husband, daughter and dog equally and care for them all with equal love and attention. I might have been a bit glib with the comment about testing on your hand but my view remains the same - human and animal life is equal. You talk about people with families. I value that. However, I also value animals with families and their own social network, and their right to be left alone and not plucked from their own environment to be brought to a lab to be tested on just for our medical advances. There has to be another way to advance medicine.

In any case, I came on here simply looking for the name of a vegan vet, not a row, so I am done with this thread. Over and out.