Can you convince this diesel lover that petrol is the way to go?

lukester

The last few cars I've owned have been diesels, and considering our next purchase, I'm trying to keep an open mind, but can't see beyond another diesel. The reason? I like their characteristics, i.e. useable real-world power; low and mid-range torque. This has been strengthened by the post 08 tax regime that means that most petrol cars will cost at least twice as much per annum in tax alone. I realise this will be offset upfront somewhat by the difference in price between a petrol and diesel, although the difference isn't that huge, around 1000 euro on the cars I've been considering.

However, our annual driving distance is currently very low, probably only 8-10000kms a year. So I'm trying to keep an open mind and look at petrol cars, but I would want something with half decent performance. Current car is a VW Golf 2.0 TDI, with 140 hp and 340nm of torque. It's got just about the right level of power for me to enjoy it but to also keep me reasonably sensible, given that it's mainly used to transport wife and toddler, with second baby on the way.

So can anyone make a case for switching back to petrol? I'm only looking at cars that fall under the new tax scheme. I'm mainly looking at estates, and now considering large family cars in saloon format. Top of my real-world wishlist is an Accord. Mazda 6 also seems a good driver's car. I love Alfas but am ruling them and most european marques out for now. (That includes Skoda, what's with the Skoda love on this forum? ) I'm mainly looking at Asian marques. With all these models, the 1.8 or 2.0 is the entry level. I've drive one 1.8 Mazda 6 which was pretty perky until I hit the first uphill, and overall I still preferred the diesel.

Convince me!

Anan1

lukester wrote: »

I've driven one 1.8 Mazda 6 which was pretty perky until I hit the first uphill, and overall I still preferred the diesel.

Convince me!

Drop a gear! Petrols need to be revved more to give of their best.

SV

Honestly, for your situation..I wouldn't bother.

Sorry.

lukester

lukester wrote: »

However, our annual driving distance is currently very low, probably only 8-10000kms a year. So I'm trying to keep an open mind and look at petrol cars, but I would want something with half decent performance. Current car is a VW Golf 2.0 TDI, with 140 hp and 340nm of torque.

I'd keep the Golf if only doing 6000 miles a year. 340 nm :eek:, you sure ?? I had an A3 for a weekend last year with that diesel engine and no way did if feel like it had that torque.

I was thinking lbs/foot

EPM

320nm or 236 ft/lb.

Sounds huge when in nm:D

pajo1981

Goys it ft-lb, not ft/lb!

pajo1981

pajo1981 wrote: »

Goys it ft-lb, not ft/lb!

It's guys not goys , you from D4 or something :pac:

Matt Simis

Anan1 wrote: »

Drop a gear! Petrols need to be revved more to give of their best.

Or just drive a torquey petrol.
People say diesels have lots of low end power or usable mid range.. Yes, they do, but still not as much as a good petrol engine (which OP will not be able to afford or run).

In my Alfa 156 2.4JTD (195bhp, 300ft/lbs torque*) I can not leave it in any gear and coast down to 20kph and expect to move. I cannot slow to nearly a stop in 3rd at a roundabout but take advantage of an unexpected break in traffic and shoot out. Starting in 2nd is possible but not very fast.

On both the Audi S4 I had and the 850CSi I have, you could nearly be in any gear at any time, they are vastly more flexible. They also dont rev out as fast. Driving the Alfa (5pot engine is known of being a good diesel engine) fast requires far more gear changing to keep in that narrow powerband (again the Alfa has a big for diesel powerband) than any other car Ive had (recently). The Alfa is a fun diesel, but its main job for me is to cover large distances cheaply, which it does. If I was doing 10k km a year, it wouldnt make any sense at all.


OP, your requirements are likely too constrained.. you want a fast petrol estate but dont want a German (lumping all European marques in one basket) model... well thats a kinda meh selection. I would have said maybe a Audi A4 Quattro Avant 2.0TFSI.. If you want a renown petrol engine that a million miles from a diesel (and not buying new car), look at my sig.


* PS: I hate to see Metric and imperial measurements mixed... 195bhp / 300ft/lbs is 146kw / 406nm

lukester

Anan1 wrote: »

Drop a gear! Petrols need to be revved more to give of their best.

I realise that, but that's the thing I prefer about a diesel thus far, low down accessible torque. But I'm open to a shift in mindset.

Matt Simis wrote: »

Or just drive a torquey petrol.
People say diesels have lots of low end power or usable mid range.. Yes, they do, but still not as much as a good petrol engine (which OP will not be able to afford or run).

At a given price point, diesels have more low end power and mid range than their petrol equivalents, at least it seems that way to me. Taking the Accord as an example, you have a toss up between a 2.0 VTEC or the 2.2 DTEC. I know which one I'd prefer out of those two. I take the point that diesels have a narrower powerband, although once you're used to it, it's not really an issue in my opinion.

Matt Simis wrote: »

Or just drive a torquey petrol.

OP, your requirements are likely too constrained.. you want a fast petrol estate but dont want a German (lumping all European marques in one basket) model... well thats a kinda meh selection. I would have said maybe a Audi A4 Quattro Avant 2.0TFSI..

Ok, maybe I'm being too blinkered- I'll consider other marques, with a weighting towards those that have good reliability/lower depreciation. That mainly rules out Frenchies and steers me back towards VAG stuff it appears. I just wanted a change, and have never owned an Asian motor.

It has to be 08 onwards for lower tax purposes, which puts the A4 Avant out of my budget of circa €24k. Nice car though- my initial search was focused on A4/A6 Avants.

Matt Simis wrote:

* PS: I hate to see Metric and imperial measurements mixed... 195bhp / 300ft/lbs is 146kw / 406nm

Yeah, apologies, it offends my own OCD sensibilities, and I was about to look up the kw figure, but was too lazy.

Tea 1000

Matt Simis wrote: »

Or just drive a torquey petrol.
People say diesels have lots of low end power or usable mid range.. Yes, they do, but still not as much as a good petrol engine (which OP will not be able to afford or run).

In my Alfa 156 2.4JTD (195bhp, 300ft/lbs torque*) I can not leave it in any gear and coast down to 20kph and expect to move. I cannot slow to nearly a stop in 3rd at a roundabout but take advantage of an unexpected break in traffic and shoot out. Starting in 2nd is possible but not very fast.

On both the Audi S4 I had and the 850CSi I have, you could nearly be in any gear at any time, they are vastly more flexible. They also dont rev out as fast. Driving the Alfa (5pot engine is known of being a good diesel engine) fast requires far more gear changing to keep in that narrow powerband (again the Alfa has a big for diesel powerband) than any other car Ive had (recently). The Alfa is a fun diesel, but its main job for me is to cover large distances cheaply, which it does. If I was doing 10k km a year, it wouldnt make any sense at all.


OP, your requirements are likely too constrained.. you want a fast petrol estate but dont want a German (lumping all European marques in one basket) model... well thats a kinda meh selection. I would have said maybe a Audi A4 Quattro Avant 2.0TFSI.. If you want a renown petrol engine that a million miles from a diesel (and not buying new car), look at my sig.


* PS: I hate to see Metric and imperial measurements mixed... 195bhp / 300ft/lbs is 146kw / 406nm

In fairness Matt, you can't compare a 2.4 5 cylinder turbo diesel to a 4.2 V8 petrol and a 5.6 V12 petrol.
To the OP:
A more direct comparison would be a 2 litre 4 cylinder petrol to a 2 litre 4 cylinder diesel. The diesel will have the power on tap as it were compared to the petrol as you're most frequently closest to the peak torque figure in regular driving in the diesel than the petrol.
What might suit you is a turbo petrol however. Try a Golf GTi for example! That'll change your mind a little I reckon!
Alternatively you need to either change your driving style to match your new engine or search for a petrol engine to match your driving style, which probably means looking at the 6 cylinder plus direction.

Matt Simis

Tea 1000 wrote: »

In fairness Matt, you can't compare a 2.4 5 cylinder turbo diesel to a 4.2 V8 petrol and a 5.4 V12 (it is 5.4 in the CSI isn't it?) petrol.
A more direct comparison would be a 2 litre 4 cylinder petrol to a 2 litre 4 cylinder diesel. The diesel will have the power on tap as it were compared to the petrol as you're most frequently closest to the peak torque figure in regular driving in the diesel than the petrol.
What might suit you is a turbo petrol however. Try a Golf GTi for example! That'll change your mind a little I reckon!
Alternatively you need to either change your driving style to match your new engine or search for a petrol engine to match your driving style, which probably means looking at the 6 cylinder plus direction.

Umm.. is that whole post directed at me?
My point is at odds with yours, Im specifically not comparing low end petrols and diesels together. Im comparing good petrol cars. Since Im not one of those that needs to "pay less tax but pay 10k more for car" types, I have this remarkable freedom to choose any engine at any time (right too for the job, not the compromise you can afford). I dont drive crap petrols, so I dont compare economical Alfa 5pot Diesels to rubbish petrol engines, I compare it to good engines.

Since you are suggesting I should try a Turbo petrol (maybe you werent directing at me, confusing), here are my recent/current cars in no particular order, which is the basis for my post(s):

• VW Beetle 2.0 (8v 4 pot of hell)
• VW Beetle 2.3 V5
• Audi S4 2.7 BiTurbo (2.7 V6, no proper S4 has a V8)
• Audi allroad 2.7 Bi(Turbo) (2.7V6)
• VW Phaeton V10TDI (5.0 BiTurbo TDI)
• Porsche Boxter S (3.2 Boxer 6)
• Alfa 156 2.4JTD (2.4 I5)
• BMW 530i (3.0 I6)
• BMW 850CSi (5.6 btw, not the weener 5.4 :cool: )

Two diesels there, one could pull entire housing estates in tow, the other is just a generally good all round diesel. Aside from the V10TDI, you drive a diesel to go large distances cheaply (I save EUR1900 in Fuel costs alone driving the Alfa to work over the 850CSi).

No matter how you splice it (2.0 4pot petrol vs blah) you "do not" drive a diesel if you do not cover large distances, even if you are somehow unable to enjoy driving a petrol, due to greater maintenance overheads (diesels dont like short trips anyhow) and engine complexity.

As limited as I describe the Alfa 2.4 JTD, Im positive it kicks the crap out of a VAG 1.9TDi in every manner possible. But its still just a mile muncher.

mumof2

Ive lost all love fro Skodas!!!!!:rolleyes:

Ive gone Ford now!!:D

Tea 1000

Matt Simis wrote: »

Umm.. is that whole post directed at me?

Nope, sorry, I clarified!

Matt Simis wrote: »

My point is at odds with yours, Im specifically not comparing low end petrols and diesels together. Im comparing good petrol cars. Since Im not one of those that needs to "pay less tax but pay 10k more for car" types, I have this remarkable freedom to choose any engine at any time (right too for the job, not the compromise you can afford). I dont drive crap petrols, so I dont compare economical Alfa 5pot Diesels to rubbish petrol engines, I compare it to good engines.

I agree, but the OP said that he wanted post '08 for tax reasons, so I deliberately kept the petrol CC low!

Matt Simis wrote: »

• VW Beetle 2.0 (8v 4 pot of hell) - dung!
• VW Beetle 2.3 V5 - slightly interesting engine, but still kinda dung!
• Audi S4 2.7 BiTurbo (2.7 V6, no proper S4 has a V8) - Decent, although I also like the V8
• Audi allroad 2.7 Bi(Turbo) (2.7V6) - Decent
• VW Phaeton V10TDI (5.0 BiTurbo TDI) - Very decent and different
• Porsche Boxter S (3.2 Boxer 6) - Savage
• Alfa 156 2.4JTD (2.4 I5) - Love these
• BMW 530i (3.0 I6) - Massively underwhelmed by an E60 one of these that I considered purchasing. E39 probably better, but have yet to sample.
• BMW 850CSi (5.6 btw, not the weener 5.4 :cool: ) - The cream of the crop, and the cream of most any potential crop you may have!

My humble opinion on your selection, just for fun!

Matt Simis wrote: »

No matter how you splice it (2.0 4pot petrol vs blah) you "do not" drive a diesel if you do not cover large distances, even if you are somehow unable to enjoy driving a petrol, due to greater maintenance overheads (diesels dont like short trips anyhow) and engine complexity.

I dunno, there are cases for diesels. I'd much rather own a 2 litre TCDI Mondeo than the miserable 1.8 unit. The VAG 2 litre petrol that used find itself in the Passat was puny also.

Matt Simis wrote: »

As limited as I describe the Alfa 2.4 JTD, Im positive it kicks the crap out of a VAG 1.9TDi in every manner possible. But its still just a mile muncher.

That wouldn't be hard!

lukester

Tea 1000 wrote: »

I dunno, there are cases for diesels. I'd much rather own a 2 litre TCDI Mondeo than the miserable 1.8 unit. The VAG 2 litre petrol that used find itself in the Passat was puny also.

This is exactly the territory I'm talking about- your average near-entry level engine. Can't think of a comparison between 2 engines at this level where the petrol would be better. A petrol with a turbo would be good though, had a Saab 9-3 lpt before, but it dropped badly in value.

Matt Simis

lukester wrote: »

This is exactly the territory I'm talking about- your average near-entry level engine. Can't think of a comparison between 2 engines at this level where the petrol would be better. A petrol with a turbo would be good though, had a Saab 9-3 lpt before, but it dropped badly in value.

A 1.8 or 2.0 Turbo Petrol would be a lot nicer than a 1.9/2.0 Turbo Diesel. Why insist crippling the Petrol cars in your comparisons!

An A5 2.0T is 208bhp and 258ft/lbs of Torque.. even unremapped (begging for it) its going to be a lot more interesting to drive than the 2.0TDI model. A lot more. It also gets like +38mpg IRC and is in the cheapy tax bracket.
BTW, Im not anti Diesel, I think the 3.0TDI A5 Quattro would be a lot of fun (though admittedly prolly less than the 2.0TFSI), but such engines do not fit some of your other criteria.

lukester

Matt Simis wrote: »

A 1.8 or 2.0 Turbo Petrol would be a lot nicer than a 1.9/2.0 Turbo Diesel. Why insist crippling the Petrol cars in your comparisons!

I'm basing the comparison on what you can get for roughly the same money for a given model of same age/spec, etc. That's generally a 1.8 or 2.0 unaspirated petrol vs a 2.0 or 2.2 TDI

Matt Simis wrote: »

An A5 2.0T is 208bhp and 258ft/lbs of Torque.. even unremapped (begging for it) its going to be a lot more interesting to drive than the 2.0TDI model. A lot more. It also gets like +38mpg IRC and is in the cheapy tax bracket.
BTW, Im not anti Diesel, I think the 3.0TDI A5 Quattro would be a lot of fun (though admittedly prolly less than the 2.0TFSI), but such engines do not fit some of your other criteria.

All nice cars, but an A5 is hardly an ideal kiddie shuttle . An A4 or A6 would be better suited to the task.

There must be some non-Audi suggestions out there too.

Cyrus

lukester wrote: »

The last few cars I've owned have been diesels, and considering our next purchase, I'm trying to keep an open mind, but can't see beyond another diesel. The reason? I like their characteristics, i.e. useable real-world power; low and mid-range torque. This has been strengthened by the post 08 tax regime that means that most petrol cars will cost at least twice as much per annum in tax alone. I realise this will be offset upfront somewhat by the difference in price between a petrol and diesel, although the difference isn't that huge, around 1000 euro on the cars I've been considering.

However, our annual driving distance is currently very low, probably only 8-10000kms a year. So I'm trying to keep an open mind and look at petrol cars, but I would want something with half decent performance. Current car is a VW Golf 2.0 TDI, with 140 hp and 340nm of torque. It's got just about the right level of power for me to enjoy it but to also keep me reasonably sensible, given that it's mainly used to transport wife and toddler, with second baby on the way.

So can anyone make a case for switching back to petrol? I'm only looking at cars that fall under the new tax scheme. I'm mainly looking at estates, and now considering large family cars in saloon format. Top of my real-world wishlist is an Accord. Mazda 6 also seems a good driver's car. I love Alfas but am ruling them and most european marques out for now. (That includes Skoda, what's with the Skoda love on this forum? ) I'm mainly looking at Asian marques. With all these models, the 1.8 or 2.0 is the entry level. I've drive one 1.8 Mazda 6 which was pretty perky until I hit the first uphill, and overall I still preferred the diesel.

Convince me!

may i ask why european cars are being ruled out?

for example in the vag range, any car with the 2.0TFSI will be far more interesting than anything with the 2.0TDI while also giving very good fuel consumption

Ditto any post 08 car with bmws 3.0 6 cyl are in the 600 odd euro tax bracket and they are wonderful engines

what kinda thing have you in mind and are you buying new or considering s/h?

lukester

Cyrus wrote: »

may i ask why european cars are being ruled out?

for example in the vag range, any car with the 2.0TFSI will be far more interesting than anything with the 2.0TDI while also giving very good fuel consumption

Ditto any post 08 car with bmws 3.0 6 cyl are in the 600 odd euro tax bracket and they are wonderful engines

what kinda thing have you in mind and are you buying new or considering s/h?

European cars are back in, but preferably marques with a percieved reputation for reliability, and relatively strong residuals. Am aiming to buy second hand, 08 onwards, with budget up to 24k.

I'm liking the sound of this 2.0 TFSI, is this available across the VAG range?

mickdw

OP, you are doing very small miles. Fork out for a bit more motor tax, buy something large, luxurious, petrol and a couple of years older than you were thinking.

mickdw

mickdw wrote: »

OP, you are doing very small miles. Fork out for a bit more motor tax, buy something large, luxurious, petrol and a couple of years older than you were thinking.

Yeah, 24K will get you a modern, tax efficient snoremobile or a fraction of that will get an older savage yoke that you and your good lady will love. Also you will save loads initially and on further depreciation. May not be your cup of tea bit worth pondering

mickdw

Ive got the 1.8Tfsi and I do about 20k miles a year. It doesnt do great mileage either, about 28 mpg. Watch out for the dreaded front wheel hop under acceleration if getting a VAG front wheel drive with anything over about 140 bhp

lukester

mickdw wrote: »

Ive got the 1.8Tfsi and I do about 20k miles a year. It doesnt do great mileage either, about 28 mpg. Watch out for the dreaded front wheel hop under acceleration if getting a VAG front wheel drive with anything over about 140 bhp

What's this front wheel hop you speak of?

Just been looking at A6s with the 2.0T FSI, some nice examples out there. Most of the A6s on Carzone are diesel, and mostly the 2.0 TDI funnily enough- it would feel odd to me to trade up to that car with the same engine I currently drive though.

mickdw

Ah some of there chassis seem to do it and some dont. My A5 is dreadful. Try to get the power down even moderately quickly and the front passenger wheel jumps off the road like a mother****er giving a thump thump thump until yo can stick it to the road again. Put a passenger in the front seat and it goes away... piss poor.
Now I got loads of abuse over on a5 owners club with people telling me to learn how to drive and feed in the power etc until one of the well known members on there drove a 1.8T. He was stunned at how easily the wheel just pops up in the air. Ive heard some of the golfs are terrible too.

bazz26

I've just been stung for €900 to have a DPF replaced in my car which is 4 years old with 84k miles on the clock. It's a common and expensive failure on alot of modern diesel engines along with DMF problems and appears to be totally unreliable technology.

That €900 would buy me alot of petrol so I am now considering going back to a petrol engined car. If you are doing low mileage then I'd stay away from a diesel car. A combination of low useage and short trips is a receipe for disaster with a DPF.

Bodhan

I have a Alfa MiTo Cloverleaf on test this week, if that doesn't convince you to go petrol nothing will. The torque from the 1.4t engine is crazy man

lukester

bazz26 wrote: »

I've just been stung for €900 to have a DPF replaced in my car which is 4 years old with 84k miles on the clock. It's a common and expensive failure on alot of modern diesel engines along with DMF problems and appears to be totally unreliable technology.

That €900 would buy me alot of petrol so I am now considering going back to a petrol engined car. If you are doing low mileage then I'd stay away from a diesel car. A combination of low useage and short trips is a receipe for disaster with a DPF.

I would contend that not all diesels are equal in this regard. The Toyota and Honda diesels haven't shown up much in the way of DPF failure- based on forum trawling for that specific issue. I see VW don't recommend their diesels any longer for short trips- that seems a bit of an engineering failure imo.

itarumaa

mickdw wrote: »

Ah some of there chassis seem to do it and some dont. My A5 is dreadful. Try to get the power down even moderately quickly and the front passenger wheel jumps off the road like a mother****er giving a thump thump thump until yo can stick it to the road again. QUOTE]

My parents had old Audi 100, year 1990 and it had the same problem, only with 115hp I might add.

Matt Simis

lukester wrote: »

I would contend that not all diesels are equal in this regard. The Toyota and Honda diesels haven't shown up much in the way of DPF failure- based on forum trawling for that specific issue. I see VW don't recommend their diesels any longer for short trips- that seems a bit of an engineering failure imo.

Well thats something people say, including me, but have VW themselves actually say that? Besides short trips are not what Diesels are designed for, no diesel, not just VAG. My Alfa diesel doesnt get coolant up to temp for about 15 full min of driving, my petrols get upto temp in about 5. In Winter, Short trips murder diesels.

pajo1981

mickdw wrote: »

Ah some of there chassis seem to do it and some dont. My A5 is dreadful. Try to get the power down even moderately quickly and the front passenger wheel jumps off the road like a mother****er giving a thump thump thump until yo can stick it to the road again. Put a passenger in the front seat and it goes away... piss poor.
Now I got loads of abuse over on a5 owners club with people telling me to learn how to drive and feed in the power etc until one of the well known members on there drove a 1.8T. He was stunned at how easily the wheel just pops up in the air. Ive heard some of the golfs are terrible too.

That's exactly what my B6 Passat used to do...

lukester

Matt Simis wrote: »

Well thats something people say, including me, but have VW themselves actually say that? Besides short trips are not what Diesels are designed for, no diesel, not just VAG. My Alfa diesel doesnt get coolant up to temp for about 15 full min of driving, my petrols get upto temp in about 5. In Winter, Short trips murder diesels.

VW have issued a statement saying that the new TDIs with DPF are not suited for short trips or only urban driving, and that if you don't run a regeneration cycle for the DPF they won't replace it under warranty if it fails. I believe it's also scheduled for replacement at 120k as a regular service item. I'll see if I can dig up the link later.

Matt Simis

Interesting, thanks for the info!

Tea 1000

lukester wrote: »

VW have issued a statement saying that the new TDIs with DPF are not suited for short trips or only urban driving, and that if you don't run a regeneration cycle for the DPF they won't replace it under warranty if it fails. I believe it's also scheduled for replacement at 120k as a regular service item. I'll see if I can dig up the link later.

I wouldn't say that's VW specific. The drive for lower emissions has brought to us a load of unreliable diesels really! And the quality of the fuel itself is low in this country I reckon.

lukester

Found the info here (last section on that page), but there are lots of references to it if you do some searching.

Courtesy of David Bodily Volkswagen Technical Support Specialist

The Warranty department has confirmed that if there is no fault on the vehicle and DPF regeneration has been unsuccessful due to the customers driving style and the
customers failure to comply with the instructions in the handbook, DPF replacement will not be paid for by warranty.

Common causes for complaint

• Frequent short journeys – Regeneration conditions are not met.
Not recommended for sale in the Channel Islands and inner city driving.