David McWilliams V Mary Hanafin

Colonel Sanders

More bully boy nonsense from Fianna Failure

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ujcs8g-MghM

Hanafin talks through her hole and again raises how much money the government has made from the guarantee. McWilliams seems to touch a few raw nerves with his accusations of the country being run for the benefit of a connected cabaal

Some heated discussion on The Pin

Colonel Sanders

Colonel Sanders wrote: »

Hanafin talks through her hole and again raises how much money the government has made from the guarantee.

Dermot Aherne trotted this out on The Last Word on Friday too

Apparently the government earned €500m a year from the guarantee

Of course what is forgotten is the negative effect it had on the country's credit rating. I remember the day of the guarantee various sources claiming that the guarantee had over night added €700m to the cost of servicing the national debt (and this was at September 2008 national debt levels)

The government are really fighting a rear guard action now.

SkepticOne

Colonel Sanders wrote: »

Of course what is forgotten is the negative effect it had on the country's credit rating. I remember the day of the guarantee various sources claiming that the guarantee had over night added €700m to the cost of servicing the national debt (and this was at September 2008 national debt levels)

And that estimate has turned out to be absurdly optimistic in the light of what has emerged with Anglo and it is likely to increase again when the bond markets start getting concerned over NAMA.

The key characteristic of the governments actions seems to be to trade certain losses now for uncertain but likely far greater ones at some point in the future. The guarantee scheme, NAMA and the nationalization of Anglo can be viewed in this way.

Politically it works very well as it puts critics at a disadvantage. Critics who worry about how much this or that bailout is going to cost can be challenged to come up with exactly how much it is going to cost and, of course, this can't be known.

The strategy is coming to and end due to the fact that bond markets don't have to put up with this ****. Most recently it was Anglo but next it will be NAMA.

5live

Just what exactly is in the vaults of Anglo that is worth E35billion to keep hidden? The bank never was systemic unless to FF builders. And our credit ratings has gone to hell in a bucket anyway after trying to save it. Just what exactly dont they want us to find out?

hinault

I think that there is some merit in what David has said on this issue.

It would appear that this gov. is absolutely intent on bailing out the bondholders regardless of the cost.

And the question is why do they feel compelled to do this?

At th very least, if we're bailing these people out on behalf of Anglo, it would be nice to know the identity of these people.

If not for the simple reason that I would like to invest money with these bondholders because they've managed to negotiate a win bet despite the actual result of this horse race.:D

cavedave

Not exactly on topic but I think it is worth pointing out what some major economics commentators have said about Ireland in recent days.

MEGAN MCARDLE

It's hard to know what to say about Ireland's revelation that it expects the cost of cleaning up Anglo Irish Bank to come to a staggering 21% of GDP...The only thing that is clear to me at this point is that if Ireland can't make it, they'll have to bail on the euro.

Tyler Cowen

Why does anyone keep his or her money, in any sizable amount, in an Irish bank when you can have a euro-denominated account in a German or English bank?

Added to what the FT is saying and city investors. This means that other people see us in a very bad situation and not one that a minister sounding outraged is going to fix.

Amhran Nua

He nailed it hard there, but what he's saying is accurate. There is no precedent in economics and finance for what we're doing. There is no reasonable excuse for what the government is doing. The government by choosing to appease the bondholders has in fact taken the easy route, which is contingent on the population staying quiet.

So lets ask the hard question of why the government is taking these steps. I and anyone who has been closely observing the interactions of government departments and ministries cannot help but come to a similar conclusion, that while TDs are continually busy polishing the parish pump to get re-elected in our hypercompetitive electoral system, unelected civil servants, institutionally important figures in the banks, and others without a mandate are calling the shots.

Can the system be that badly broken, that you are getting taxed to pay for all of this without real representation? Is that, as the minister mentions, treason?

dan_d

5live wrote: »

Just what exactly is in the vaults of Anglo that is worth E35billion to keep hidden? The bank never was systemic unless to FF builders. And our credit ratings has gone to hell in a bucket anyway after trying to save it. Just what exactly dont they want us to find out?

A hell of a lot, it would appear.:mad: Probably the kind of stuff that people actually would take to the streets over - I imagine the little we've heard is just the tip of the iceberg.

thebman

The way he says it makes it sound like a consipiracy theory TBH.

It isn't. Many politicians (can't remember specifics) are over-exposed to property market and have loans they will struggle to pay back now.

Same with many top civil servants etc... too I'm sure.

Its a convienient place for the government to be as they bought into their own silly hype. So they are all in together to screw over the guys who didn't borrow wrecklessly.

acer1000

thebman wrote: »

The way he says it makes it sound like a consipiracy theory TBH.

It isn't. Many politicians (can't remember specifics) are over-exposed to property market and have loans they will struggle to pay back now.

Same with many top civil servants etc... too I'm sure.

Its a convienient place for the government to be as they bought into their own silly hype. So they are all in together to screw over the guys who didn't borrow wrecklessly.

That makes a lot of sense, and it is a conspiracy of sorts. It's the most credible explanation and the reason they took the easy solution and not the tough one, as they'd have you believe.

Fair play to David, without him we would be so much less informed.

Sand

I wouldnt consider it a conspiracy - its simply the nature of the ruling classes here.

Political dynasties (Lenihan is a third generation Fianna Fail aristocrat, born to power) who are representitive of a disinterested, politically and economically illiterate electorate who get the government they deserve. An insular and heavily unionised civil service/public sector with immense power over a heavily centralised state, with little or no oversight or transparency. Trade unions with direct political respresentation in economic planning through the "Social Partnership". Stated owned, easily intimidated media who are good at opinion pieces but not at investigative journalism and who drink in the same bars as the rest of the elite. An insular private business culture where there is small circle of people who pop up on all the boards, where results arent important, just appearances.

We're talking about a ruling class where a Taoiseach can freely admit in national TV interviews that he made appointments to state boards because the appointees were his friend and theres no reaction.

When this sort of leadership is suddenly confronted with a cataclysmic event - a sudden realisation that they are suddenly and terribly at risk, what is the first natural human reaction? Denial.

And we simply do not have a good system of governance, checks or balances or indeed protection for whistleblowers and/or contrary individuals who can stop the denial taking root. The system is too small - people all know each other, and we dont have the necessary walls or checks to stop them reinforcing their denial.

Look at the media "analysis" in the aftermath of the guarantee:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11CCxv2ueiQ

Youve got a reporter who clearly doesnt know anything about the subject to hand. A talking head taken from a stockbrokers who is clearly delighted he still has a job. An editor from a safe Fianna Fail paper, who clearly has no idea what hes talking about. And Morgan Kelly, the token dissenter to maintain the illusion that theres actually much in the way of debate going on. This is the level of discussion on policy that our ruling classes feel citizens deserve.

Its very telling that when Morgan Kelly lays out his total disagreement with the policy, hes confronted by an argument thats essentially name dropping and daring Morgan Kelly to disagree with the great and the good. This is a common refrain all through the debate - at every turn, critics of government policy have been told "How dare you disagree with <insertnameofpersonorgrouphere>, how dare you! Who do you think you are, rocking the boat?"

So instead of real debate, disagreement or discussion at a leadership level calls are made from politicians to civil servants to bankers to trade unionists to media, meetings are held, and group think takes hold. The mantra goes out everyone needs to pull on the green jersey, stop talking the economy down, that it is manageable. Nobody wants to accept that a huge and immense threat to their positions and wealth and status is at hand, so they simply try to pretend it hasnt happened, wont happen, and if it does happen they wont pay for it.

So, Lenihans decisions to collude with the banks in trying to paper over the cracks back in September 2008 is totally understandable from that point of view. He, like the banks, and like all his civil servants, and all the media were in total denial. They simply refused to allow there was the possibility of the Irish banks being in trouble.

They have been in denial ever since. Everything has been focused on simply getting to the next day, the next week, the next month. We have an appalling cadre of leaders, absolutely apalling. But they are firmly locked into their positions at the top of the pyramid and they will do everything in their power to maintain the status quo, because the status quo is them being paid ridiculous amounts of money to do a poor job with little oversight. Its not an organised conspiracy, just natural human denial thats given free rein by an awful system of governance and oversight.

acer1000

Sand, what you document in the previous post regarding the cosy club is all very true, except for what you omit. Every country has an establishment at the top, nothing unusual about that. You would have to admit that the main opposition parties/individuals are/were part of that establishment, too. Therein, is the kernel of our problem.

Basically, we had a government that ****ed up and we had an opposition that allowed it to happen.

You are right regarding the government being in denial, a government that is desperate to find a solution within a construct that suits them, But it’s also within a construct that the mainstream opposition are also looking for a solution. So it’s not just the governing party that believed their own bull****, the mainstream opposition parties believed it, too. If you were to survey the investments of the oppostion, I bet they would mirror those of FF. Unfortunately, the same applies to a sizeable proportion of the electorate, in particular individuals who are the more politically active. So many in denial and the most desperate denial of all is that anything can be changed by changing the deckchairs on The Titanic.

It was a great post Sand, very well written etc, and for the most part it’s very true, but sometimes the pertinent issues may not be so convoluted, but may be rooted in something as simple as money.

So the people who didn't take part in the madness are to be made pay for madness of others.

Zynks

5live wrote: »

Just what exactly is in the vaults of Anglo that is worth E35billion to keep hidden? The bank never was systemic unless to FF builders. And our credit ratings has gone to hell in a bucket anyway after trying to save it. Just what exactly dont they want us to find out?

Quoting a post from the link the OP to the property pin:


[HTML]An excellent post by Libero on p.ie and I do believe that he's nailed the mystery
of why the bondholders are so special.

Quote:
There's something else the holders of senior debt might be able to do in liquidation:
appoint their own liquidator and have him go after the borrowers from Anglo.

For all their talk of depositors and the horrors of a call on the deposit guarantee,
there's a prospect that must really keep the FFers awake at night.[/HTML]

That would make sense.... if bondholders are likely to chase the failed property speculators and their buddies in this country, that would mean the wipeout of a large portion of our powerful/wealthy/politically connected. So instead, the taxpayer pays for the failure of their stupid gambles and in exchange we get to keep these admirable role models.

I am staring to wonder if the only way out would be for a huge amount of people to move their accounts and assets to foreign banks to speed the "fan hitting" process.

Scofflaw

Zynks wrote: »

Quoting a post from the link the OP to the property pin:


[HTML]An excellent post by Libero on p.ie and I do believe that he's nailed the mystery
of why the bondholders are so special.

Quote:
There's something else the holders of senior debt might be able to do in liquidation:
appoint their own liquidator and have him go after the borrowers from Anglo.

For all their talk of depositors and the horrors of a call on the deposit guarantee,
there's a prospect that must really keep the FFers awake at night.[/HTML]

That would make sense.... if bondholders are likely to chase the failed property speculators and their buddies in this country, that would mean the wipeout of a large portion of our powerful/wealthy/politically connected. So instead, the taxpayer pays for the failure of their stupid gambles and in exchange we get to keep these admirable role models.

I am staring to wonder if the only way out would be for a huge amount of people to move their accounts and assets to foreign banks to speed the "fan hitting" process.

The problem with that method is that the spray of brown stuff is unpredictable.

cordially,
Scofflaw

ei.sdraob

I dont think there is a conspiracy by FF govt (there I said it!)

* YES they have a vested interest in holding to power at all costs, country be damned
* YES they are completely incompetent
* YES there are people who would still vote for them for some reason :P clientelism
* YES they have a lot of skeletons buried about the place in graveyards like NAMA


David in his constant attempts at dumben down things for the Tallagh commoner in order to sell more books/plays, is making himself appear dumb this time

moral of story: do not lower yourself and bicker with FF when having a public discussion. keep your integrity and upper hand!


anyways not like David is a saint himself, see signature :P

Amhran Nua

ei.sdraob wrote: »

I dont think there is a conspiracy by FF govt (there I said it!)

The only difference between a conspiracy and an unwitting alliance of the incompetent is awareness of collusion.

5live

Sand wrote: »

I wouldnt consider it a conspiracy - its simply the nature of the ruling classes here.

Political dynasties (Lenihan is a third generation Fianna Fail aristocrat, born to power) who are representitive of a disinterested, politically and economically illiterate electorate who get the government they deserve. An insular and heavily unionised civil service/public sector with immense power over a heavily centralised state, with little or no oversight or transparency. Trade unions with direct political respresentation in economic planning through the "Social Partnership". Stated owned, easily intimidated media who are good at opinion pieces but not at investigative journalism and who drink in the same bars as the rest of the elite. An insular private business culture where there is small circle of people who pop up on all the boards, where results arent important, just appearances.

We're talking about a ruling class where a Taoiseach can freely admit in national TV interviews that he made appointments to state boards because the appointees were his friend and theres no reaction.

When this sort of leadership is suddenly confronted with a cataclysmic event - a sudden realisation that they are suddenly and terribly at risk, what is the first natural human reaction? Denial.

And we simply do not have a good system of governance, checks or balances or indeed protection for whistleblowers and/or contrary individuals who can stop the denial taking root. The system is too small - people all know each other, and we dont have the necessary walls or checks to stop them reinforcing their denial.

Look at the media "analysis" in the aftermath of the guarantee:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11CCxv2ueiQ

Youve got a reporter who clearly doesnt know anything about the subject to hand. A talking head taken from a stockbrokers who is clearly delighted he still has a job. An editor from a safe Fianna Fail paper, who clearly has no idea what hes talking about. And Morgan Kelly, the token dissenter to maintain the illusion that theres actually much in the way of debate going on. This is the level of discussion on policy that our ruling classes feel citizens deserve.

Its very telling that when Morgan Kelly lays out his total disagreement with the policy, hes confronted by an argument thats essentially name dropping and daring Morgan Kelly to disagree with the great and the good. This is a common refrain all through the debate - at every turn, critics of government policy have been told "How dare you disagree with <insertnameofpersonorgrouphere>, how dare you! Who do you think you are, rocking the boat?"

So instead of real debate, disagreement or discussion at a leadership level calls are made from politicians to civil servants to bankers to trade unionists to media, meetings are held, and group think takes hold. The mantra goes out everyone needs to pull on the green jersey, stop talking the economy down, that it is manageable. Nobody wants to accept that a huge and immense threat to their positions and wealth and status is at hand, so they simply try to pretend it hasnt happened, wont happen, and if it does happen they wont pay for it.

So, Lenihans decisions to collude with the banks in trying to paper over the cracks back in September 2008 is totally understandable from that point of view. He, like the banks, and like all his civil servants, and all the media were in total denial. They simply refused to allow there was the possibility of the Irish banks being in trouble.

They have been in denial ever since. Everything has been focused on simply getting to the next day, the next week, the next month. We have an appalling cadre of leaders, absolutely apalling. But they are firmly locked into their positions at the top of the pyramid and they will do everything in their power to maintain the status quo, because the status quo is them being paid ridiculous amounts of money to do a poor job with little oversight. Its not an organised conspiracy, just natural human denial thats given free rein by an awful system of governance and oversight.

Why dont you stop beating around the bush and just tell us what you think?;)

Naz_st

Sand wrote: »

...We have an appalling cadre of leaders, absolutely apalling. But they are firmly locked into their positions at the top of the pyramid and they will do everything in their power to maintain the status quo, because the status quo is them being paid ridiculous amounts of money to do a poor job with little oversight...

That reminded me of a quote that I heard when I happened to tune into the UK news on Monday night just as they showed a clip of William Hague at the conservative party conference where, in alluding to the "miserable mess" that the current UK government has inherited from the previous, he referred to the previous Labour government as "...a party of political pyramid-sellers, trying to fool people they thought would never notice by spending money they did not have in pursuit of promises they never kept in support of a fantasy they could not possibly have sustained".

Seems equally apt for our own government and the even more "miserable mess" they are going to pass on to their successors in the (hopefully) not too distant future...

acer1000

That propertypin post seems to make a lot of sense, and thanks to the poster for bringing it to our attention.

Aside from the possibility of bond holders appointing their own liquidator and going after the borrower friends of FF, wouldn’t the bondholders be able to sue the government for pursuing a policy of little or no regulation in the protection of their interests? I know the answer would appear to be yes, but I don’t know? I have a doubt about that because I remember reading an article by David McWilliams in August where he said the regulation with regard to them was within the remit of the ECB. I may be wrong because I read his article very quickly, so I honestly don’t know and I would love some clarification.

It seems obvious that they could sue. Tell the bondholders they’ve lost their money, they in turn sue the State, key politicians get hauled through the courts for protracted periods, thus in effect allowing justice and to occur for the people who have been seriously damaged by past government policy.

I know that such isn’t allowed to happen due to the Greens and a few Independents, but why haven’t the mainstream parties categorically stated that they wouldn’t honour the bondholders, if they were to be in government?

Is it because they are part of the establishment, too, or the general conviviality between parties that they more or less don’t really want to inflict pain on one of their own, whilst they play enemies on the public gallery? Or would they feel hypocritical doing so because they know that if they were the ones in power, they would have pursued similar policies?

In light of the possibility of Ivor C suing for damages, can the public afford any missed opportunities for justice?

Sand

@acer

But it’s also within a construct that the mainstream opposition are also looking for a solution. So it’s not just the governing party that believed their own bull****, the mainstream opposition parties believed it, too. If you were to survey the investments of the oppostion, I bet they would mirror those of FF. Unfortunately, the same applies to a sizeable proportion of the electorate, in particular individuals who are the more politically active. So many in denial and the most desperate denial of all is that anything can be changed by changing the deckchairs on The Titanic.

Fully agreed, whilst I name checked Lenihan, he is only an example. The opposition are cut from the same cloth. They after all target the same electorate, the Irish people.

I know that such isn’t allowed to happen due to the Greens and a few Independents, but why haven’t the mainstream parties categorically stated that they wouldn’t honour the bondholders, if they were to be in government?

Is it because they are part of the establishment, too, or the general conviviality between parties that they more or less don’t really want to inflict pain on one of their own, whilst they play enemies on the public gallery? Or would they feel hypocritical doing so because they know that if they were the ones in power, they would have pursued similar policies?

Fine Gael and Labour ought to have said in advance of NAMA that whilst they might lose the vote in the Dail, as they did, they would be the next government without a shadow of a doubt and they would entirely dishonour the NAMA deal. NAMA would immediately have become unworkable because the markets would have recognised the reality of the FG/Labours threat.

Why didnt they? I wouldnt put it down to fear of hypocrisy - they have no shame. More likely, its down to them being part of the establishment. The vast majority of establishment TDs dont want to reform the system, they just want to be the ones giving jobs to their mates, getting driven around in the ministerial car and getting ministerial wages and prestige. As such, they too operated in a state of denial as part of the group think - they might have disagreed with the management of the solution or the concentrated on blaming the government for political gain, but ultimately they are part of the establishment and they want to make sure that the establishment sees them as a safe pair of hands.

Witness the terror and horror when Fine Gael dared to stop co-operating with the vote pairing in the Dail. Suddenly Fine Gael were dangerous and out of control, putting the good of the country at risk, or so every paper and radio and tv screamed. What would the reaction have been if FG and Labour had thrown a spanner in the works of the group think around NAMA by vowing to not be bound by the legislation put together by Greena Fail?

Drumpot

Ah David McWilliams . . Such a credible reference point for objective economic analysis . . :rolleyes:

The same guy who likes to make comparisons when it suits, never really divulges the downside to his views and is seldom questioned by a person with an economic backround so never really has to properly debate his populist rants. . In all fairness, he would be at home on Gilemore's team ! ! !

I would like to see McWilliams debate his views with anybody professionaly able to discuss them in more detail and until that happens I take what he says with more then a pinch of half a salt . . In celebrity terms, he is the Jordan of Irish Economics . . Do and say whatever you can to get on tv . .

acer1000

Jeez Sand, you portray an appalling vista, that I don’t doubt. I don’t believe that the majority of voters who claim that they would vote for certain mainstream oppositions parties are fully tuned into the co-conspiracy role of those said parties. I must state here that I’m not of any political party or entity.

Your last paragraph freaks me out a bit because it answers in part the next question that arises. Why haven’t the media honed in on such issues as a public duty? I know the media played a big role in the property frenzy for it’s own gain and that the media isn’t such a trusted sector in society, in general, but yet it has within it some great people who do champion worthy causes, at their own risk. One can understand highly paid RTE contractors going easy on politicians, but surely there must be some paper/ media person who would tease out little secrets that parties are trying to keep from us? Why isn’t this happening?

Sand

Jeez Sand, you portray an appalling vista, that I don’t doubt. I don’t believe that the majority of voters who claim that they would vote for certain mainstream oppositions parties are fully tuned into the co-conspiracy role of those said parties. I must state here that I’m not of any political party or entity.

Its not a conspiracy though - its just natural self interest of our ruling classes, unchecked by any real limitation on their power or any transparency which might allow for criticism. And ultimately, the wider electorate is to blame. Irish voters traditionally reward the gombeen who brings home the bacon in terms of corrupt local benefits at the expense of the nation.

And we hope that all the other ****ing eejits vote in statesmen who will handle the actual running of the nation, as opposed to parasites who simply leech of it.

So we get the sort of ruling class we deserve.

Your last paragraph freaks me out a bit because it answers in part the next question that arises. Why haven’t the media honed in on such issues as a public duty? I know the media played a big role in the property frenzy for it’s own gain and that the media isn’t such a trusted sector in society, in general, but yet it has within it some great people who do champion worthy causes, at their own risk. One can understand highly paid RTE contractors going easy on politicians, but surely there must be some paper/ media person who would tease out little secrets that parties are trying to keep from us? Why isn’t this happening?

Well, why wasnt it reported on that the Taoiseach of our country...well, he likes a pint or two. I've heard of stories of him being peeled off the floor of hotel rooms in his boxers by minders to appear at meetings or interviews. And thats only the stuff I heard. And yet, it was the media's guilty secret for years, decades. Why? Because they were in the bar buying drinks and having drinks bought for them by the politicians they were supposed to be regulating though objective criticism. Its illuminating, almost sad, to note that when Cowen was up holding court in that Galway hotel recently, he wagged his finger at the reporters present, remining them not to get him in trouble tommorrow morning. And they wouldnt have, theyd have held to the code, if only it wasnt for that meddling Simon Covney.

I need to emphasise hear, given the traditional Irish urge to jump to the defence of a man who likes his pints, that Im not criticising Cowen for liking a pint. Im highlighting the fact that the media are in the bar with the politicians sinking those pints. These are our watchdogs. More like lapdogs.

Look at the BBC and RTE. Both are state owned broadcasters. But I cant ever imagine RTE ever daring to put something as biting and bitter as "In the Thick of It" together as a commentary on the politicians and spin of the era. The BBC did. Why? Because Ireland is a small state, where the elite is close and consensus is valued ( Look at Bertie - why the hell is being a consensus leader seen as a good thing - lowest common denominator leadership more like). Whereas, its true to say the UK has its cosy elites too but its also a larger state where its harder to control everything.

Now does that mean Ireland is worse than the UK? No, but it means we need to recognise that we need to build in greater transparency and checks against abuse of power and corruption in our system of governance than are accepted in the UK. One size does not fit all.

fontanalis

ei.sdraob wrote: »

I dont think there is a conspiracy by FF govt (there I said it!)

* YES they have a vested interest in holding to power at all costs, country be damned
* YES they are completely incompetent
* YES there are people who would still vote for them for some reason :P clientelism
* YES they have a lot of skeletons buried about the place in graveyards like NAMA


David in his constant attempts at dumben down things for the Tallagh commoner in order to sell more books/plays, is making himself appear dumb this time

moral of story: do not lower yourself and bicker with FF when having a public discussion. keep your integrity and upper hand!


anyways not like David is a saint himself, see signature :P

You're right; it's not a conspiracy. They usually tend to be weel planned and thought out.

acer1000

Sand wrote: »

Its not a conspiracy though - its just natural self interest of our ruling classes, unchecked by any real limitation on their power or any transparency which might allow for criticism. And ultimately, the wider electorate is to blame. Irish voters traditionally reward the gombeen who brings home the bacon in terms of corrupt local benefits at the expense of the nation.

And we hope that all the other ****ing eejits vote in statesmen who will handle the actual running of the nation, as opposed to parasites who simply leech of it.

So we get the sort of ruling class we deserve.


Look at the BBC and RTE. Both are state owned broadcasters. But I cant ever imagine RTE ever daring to put something as biting and bitter as "In the Thick of It" together as a commentary on the politicians and spin of the era. The BBC did. Why? Because Ireland is a small state, where the elite is close and consensus is valued ( Look at Bertie - why the hell is being a consensus leader seen as a good thing - lowest common denominator leadership more like). Whereas, its true to say the UK has its cosy elites too but its also a larger state where its harder to control everything.

Now does that mean Ireland is worse than the UK? No, but it means we need to recognise that we need to build in greater transparency and checks against abuse of power and corruption in our system of governance than are accepted in the UK. One size does not fit all.

The system as it exists makes it difficult for that type of candidate to be elected, even though many of us would want that kind of candidate elected. He/she just doesn’t appear on most people’s ballot paper, particularly outside Dublin. So much for our so called democracy. I really have a issue with people blaming people from outside Dublin for giving the country bad politicians, when a possible resolution to the issue lies within the bounds of the cities, i.e. the university political science departments. Challenge them to come up with a new system. One that would have the proper bells and alarms. Whatever, that’s not going to help us now with our present crisis. It would only be diversionary.

Anyway, it was Dublin that gave the country Blank Cheque Bertie, the chief architect of our crisis.

The one word answer to your cosy club thesis: Iceland. A smaller system that should have our cosy clique circle, but yet they are going to haul key individuals through the courts for known wrong doings. The obvious answer to that is that they have the laws. True, but they must also have the will, a will that one would be lead to believe we don’t have. Except, I don’t believe that, I just think that a middle class Dublin based media is lagging behind the masses on that. They are still poking around in their own blinkered sense of the rightness of the status quo, wasting time on side issues, like Cowen’s personal life, private vs public sector, etc.

What you are portraying is not just a loss of financial capital but a depletion of human capital, too. I don’t acccept that, there are many people of guts in all spheres of Irish life, it’s just that the **** that rose to the top, and the layers below have to be purged.

To help in that purging process, why can’t laws be retrospectively enacted that would facilitate key figures being put behind bars for lengthy periods, seeing we probably aren’t going to allow the bondholders to inadvertently do it for us? Are we really supposed to let them off on large pensions to enjoy their ill-gotten wealth, whilst we are made suffer? People who voted for gombeen politicians in the past now want retribution. I talk to people like farmers, lorry drivers, etc. They didn’t expect they would be so screwed by them. All know that we are now up the creek regardless of what happens, and the only comfort is retribution for grievous harm done. People don’t care where it comes from, they can be the extreme right or the extreme left. On the current crisis, they seem to have a more broad mindedness than much of the media who speak to them. People like that are now more tuned to people from the opposite ends of the spectrum, be they Declan Ganley or at the other end Richard Boyd Barrett, people they didn’t feel safe about before. Why? Because they are making a hell of a lot more sense than the piddling claptrap of middle ground politicians.

However, it’s the middle grounders who are constantly addressed even
though they don’t seem to have that range of vision to deal with our crisis and how we move on from here.