Sinn Fein tables no confidence motion in Lenihan

southsiderosie

Here we go...

Sinn Fein has tabled a Dail motion of no confidence in Finance Minister Brian Lenihan.

Party president Gerry Adams accused the Fianna Fail/Green party coalition of punishing ordinary families to save the banks in the wake of the total 50 billion euro bank bailout bill.

At the party's Ard Chomhairle Mr Adams urged Fine Gael and Labour to roll in behind him.

"Sinn Fein has tabled a Dail motion of no confidence in the Finance Minister Brian Lenihan," he said.

"Fine Gael and Labour, if they are serious about bringing down this government, should support that motion."

Read full article here.

OK, my take on SF is that economic policy is not exactly their strong point. They are also claiming that they will issue an alternative budget in November, which may be too late to matter if the ECB/IMF get deeply involved. And I know a lot of people are mad at the government, but are they are really going to fall in behind the charge led by Gerry Adams/SF? I'm doubtful.

Iwasfrozen

It will be interesting to see if FG and Labour do ride in behind SF. I think they will but then they may not want to give legitimacy to SF.

Nehaxak

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

...they may not want to give legitimacy to SF.

They don't have too, legitimacy has already been given SF through the democratic process and those that voted for them, so this notion of them being legitimate or otherwise is tiring.

Iwasfrozen

Nehaxak wrote: »

They don't have too, legitimacy has already been given SF through the democratic process and those that voted for them, so this notion of them being legitimate or otherwise is tiring.

They have a tiny percentage of voters. There is no legitimate chance of them being the biggest party in the next Dáil. FG and Labour on the other hand...

Nehaxak

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

They have a tiny percentage of voters. There is no legitimate chance of them being the biggest party in the next Dáil. FG and Labour on the other hand...

Well now, you've changed your wording from just legitimate to now being "legitimate chance of them being the biggest party in the next Dail..." which reads entirely different.

They're still well within their rights to call for a no confidence motion regardless of how big a party they are in the Republic or not.
Opposition parties, if they agree with the motion, should support them. To do otherwise just because "they're SF!" would be petty and childish.

D-Generate

SF are going to issue an alternative budget?! Hilarity will surely ensue!

the_syco

Nehaxak wrote: »

Opposition parties, if they agree with the motion, should support them. To do otherwise just because "they're SF!" would be petty and childish.

I doubt it. They won't go into government with SF because SF are SF, so I can't see them wanting to be seen to be supporting any of SF's agendas. Childish? Most likely.

D-Generate wrote: »

SF are going to issue an alternative budget?! Hilarity will surely ensue!

I wonder will they raise the corpo tax for all those naughty foreigners that are giving us jobs... :mad: or if they'll have some cop on, and leave it as it is, so me, and thousands of others, will continue to have jobs.

Nehaxak

D-Generate wrote: »

SF are going to issue an alternative budget?! Hilarity will surely ensue!

Well at least they're making an effort. Are the other opposition parties going to do the same ? I'd prefer they all proposed alternative budgets, preferably well in advance so the public can view and dissect them. Then compare to what we actually get and either see how much we would've been better off had such an opposition party been in government or, how much worse we could've been.

southsiderosie

Nehaxak wrote: »

Well now, you've changed your wording from just legitimate to now being "legitimate chance of them being the biggest party in the next Dail..." which reads entirely different.

They're still well within their rights to call for a no confidence motion regardless or how big a party they are in the Republic or not.
Opposition parties, if they agree with the motion, should support them. To do otherwise just because "they're SF!" would be petty and childish.

Hm, the third option may be they are being strategic. Edna Kenny is in enough trouble with his base already; do you really think they would support him getting behind any SF initiatives? And more broadly, why would Kenny or Gilmore get "behind" anything; one of them will probably be the next taoiseach, so I would think that they would want to be in front of any kind of major challenge to the current government. And, Yes, I know one can say that Gilmore, Kenny and Adams would be part of a joint initiative, but I don't think that's how it will play out with the base.

D-Generate

Nehaxak wrote: »

Well at least they're making an effort. Are the other opposition parties going to do the same ? I'd prefer they all proposed alternative budgets, preferably well in advance so the public can view and dissect them. Then compare to what we actually get and either see how much we would've been better off had such an opposition party been in government or, how much worse we could've been.

To be honest, you are actually right and I was a bit brash. I won't agree with Sinn Féin's budget and I doubt I would like a Labour budget but it would be good to see alternative viewpoints. FG budget will be pretty damn similar to FFs.

I will still probably find SFs proposals ridiculous though and will get a good giggle from them.

Nehaxak

southsiderosie wrote: »

Hm, the third option may be they are being strategic. Edna Kenny is in enough trouble with his base already; do you really think they would support him getting behind any SF initiatives? And more broadly, why would Kenny or Gilmore get "behind" anything; one of them will probably be the next taoiseach, so I would think that they would want to be in front of any kind of major challenge to the current government. And, Yes, I know one can say that Gilmore, Kenny and Adams would be part of a joint initiative, but I don't think that's how it will play out with the base.

The thing is, if the opposition parties do not support the motion then it shows that they do indeed have confidence in the minister, ignoring the mess he has incompetently presided over. So as such then, any opposition to his subsequent budget he will bring to the table from the same parties who didn't support the previous (this!) motion of no confidence will be worthless given they had the chance to oppose him before the fact and refused to do so.

It also an indictment of Irish politics if opposition to the motion, from the opposition parties, is opposed just because it's SF proposing it in the first place.
If political parties in this day and age in Ireland are still treading along such tired, pathetic lines then there is little hope of the public breaking ranks with who they have historically voted for in the past with a fair whack of people voting for either FF or FG just because their parents did or even just because of old civil war politics. In which case, there will still be a huge chance for FF once again to be voted back into government for another term.

Someone somewhere has to break the old tiring and and this stage, pathetic historical almost tribal allegiances and oppositions and do what's right for the country as a whole, the bigger picture, fix what's wrong and do it right.

Johnny Murphy FF

southsiderosie wrote: »

Here we go...



OK, my take on SF is that economic policy is not exactly their strong point. They are also claiming that they will issue an alternative budget in November, which may be too late to matter if the ECB/IMF get deeply involved. And I know a lot of people are mad at the government, but are they are really going to fall in behind the charge led by Gerry Adams/SF? I'm doubtful.

Ah sure dont mind them gob****es in SF, there all talk and bravado but if they really did get into government tommorow theyd be faced with the harsh reality of trying to run a country.

And no I really cant see the Irish public falling for this sort of thing.

Nehaxak

D-Generate wrote: »

To be honest, you are actually right and I was a bit brash. I won't agree with Sinn Féin's budget and I doubt I would like a Labour budget but it would be good to see alternative viewpoints. FG budget will be pretty damn similar to FFs.

I will still probably find SFs proposals ridiculous though and will get a good giggle from them.

Cheers and I'm the same to be fair, though I still think it more politically advanced and courageous for an opposition party to actually put together and provide for the country an alternative budget - however silly some parts of it may actually end up reading, they're still willing to make the effort.

southsiderosie

Nehaxak wrote: »

The thing is, if the opposition parties do not support the motion then it shows that they do indeed have confidence in the minister, ignoring the mess he has incompetently presided over. So as such then, any opposition to his subsequent budget he will bring to the table from the same parties who didn't support the previous (this!) motion of no confidence will be worthless given they had the chance to oppose him before the fact and refused to do so.

Not necessarily. Labour in particular has been pretty clear about their faith in this government's figures. But I think the next big push against the current government will need to be led by those who would form the next government, and forming a government with SF would be hugely problematic for a lot of FG and Labour voters.

Nehaxak wrote: »

If political parties in this day and age in Ireland are still treading along such tired, pathetic lines then there is little hope of the public breaking ranks with who they have historically voted for in the past with a fair whack of people voting for either FF or FG just because their parents did or even just because of old civil war politics. In which case, there will still be a huge chance for FF once again to be voted back into government for another term.

Someone somewhere has to break the old tiring and and this stage, pathetic historical almost tribal allegiances and oppositions and do what's right for the country as a whole, the bigger picture, fix what's wrong and do it right.

Well, the rise of Labor suggests that it does not have to be a FF-FG either-or in the next election.

I think it would be easier for people to support Sinn Fein if there was different leadership. Gerry Adams provokes an almost instantaneous allergic reaction in a lot of people. So they may be a generation off of becoming a party that can expand its base of support in the Dail.

thebman

Realistically this move by SF probably means FF are staying around until the budget as I can't see the other opposition parties rallying behind SF.

I don't have a problem with either one though TBH. If the government falls, happy days, if FF have to declare a crushing budget that wakes people up to what they have done to the country, happy days.

Liam Byrne

The fact that it's SF that did this is a sad indictment of the other opposition parties; it wouldn't make me vote SF because they still have unacceptable double-standards and stances, but for once they're actually attempting something good for the country; something the other opposition parties have failed miserably to do.

goose2005

Nehaxak wrote: »

Well at least they're making an effort. Are the other opposition parties going to do the same ? I'd prefer they all proposed alternative budgets, preferably well in advance so the public can view and dissect them. Then compare to what we actually get and either see how much we would've been better off had such an opposition party been in government or, how much worse we could've been.

The other parties always do - however, the govt don't give them proper access to figures so a lot of it is guesswork

dlofnep

Sinn Féin issued a paper a month ago - I wonder how many of you that have attacked their economics have actually read it? And no - Sinn Féin has no intentions of raising Corporation Tax, although the EU however view vision the Irish economy differently.

Sinn Féin are on the button here. Fianna Fáil's has crippled this country, and has given every single person in this thread a huge debt. If you actually ventured outside of your comfort zone, and thought objectively - you'd see that this is a valid move by Sinn Féin, and the fact that it's them who are pressing for it, and not the opposition indicates a lack of backbone in the other parties.

Liam Byrne

dlofnep wrote: »

Sinn Féin issued a paper a month ago - I wonder how many of you that have attacked their economics have actually read it? And no - Sinn Féin has no intentions of raising Corporation Tax, although the EU however view vision the Irish economy differently.

Sinn Féin are on the button here. Fianna Fáil's has crippled this country, and has given every single person in this thread a huge debt. If you actually ventured outside of your comfort zone, and thought objectively - you'd see that this is a valid move by Sinn Féin, and the fact that it's them who are pressing for it, and not the opposition indicates a lack of backbone in the other parties.

All true, but you know well why I believe that SF are unsuitable for office; I won't drag this thread off-topic by going into them, but they're pretty obvious and that doesn't change by them saying a few things that I agree with.

dlofnep

Liam Byrne wrote: »

All true, but you know well why I believe that SF are unsuitable for office; I won't drag this thread off-topic by going into them, but they're pretty obvious and that doesn't change by them saying a few things that I agree with.

That's your democratic right to hold that view. My views are different. I believe Sinn Féin are most certainly a credible alternative. What are your views on their pre-budget submission as a matter of interest?

Liam Byrne

dlofnep wrote: »

What are your views on their pre-budget submission as a matter of interest?

I haven't read them.

In the same way as FF could (stretching imagination) come up with a whole set of proposals that could be worthy but still be unacceptable because of their recent past, SF are the same.

I would expand on that, but as I said I don't want to go off-topic; suffice to say their stance on the treatment of representatives of this state and the perpetrators of same ensures that they cannot be considered.

If they change their ways (and stop referring to this country as "the 26 counties") then maybe I'd start taking notice of what they say and maybe cpnsider them at some stage in the future.

But - as I said above - some credit where credit's due; at least on this topic they have done what other opposition parties have avoided.

southsiderosie

dlofnep wrote: »

Sinn Féin issued a paper a month ago - I wonder how many of you that have attacked their economics have actually read it? And no - Sinn Féin has no intentions of raising Corporation Tax, although the EU however view vision the Irish economy differently.

Sinn Féin are on the button here. Fianna Fáil's has crippled this country, and has given every single person in this thread a huge debt. If you actually ventured outside of your comfort zone, and thought objectively - you'd see that this is a valid move by Sinn Féin, and the fact that it's them who are pressing for it, and not the opposition indicates a lack of backbone in the other parties.

Thank you for posting the link, but I honestly don't see anything new here. The core of their economic policy is to raise taxes on the rich. They also propose tapping the national pension fund; given that pensioners seem to be the only constituency in the Republic willing to take to the streets, this is not likely to be a viable proposal.

I'm all for bringing public sector executive wages down, and think that if there are to be any cuts, they should start from the Taoiseach on down. I also think there do need to be some measures to prevent another housing crisis or asset inflation, so some additional propoerty taxes are probably a good idea, given that Ireland can't control interest rates. But in general I don't really see anything new or different here from standard socialist orthodoxy, a system which even the Swedes and Danes are tinkering with.

the groutch

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I think they will but then they may not want to give legitimacy to SF.

A party with 4 Dail seats and 54 council seats is very legitimate imo

PeterIanStaker

SF have done FF a huge favour in tabling this motion. The assorted hacks of the Spindo are, I'm sure, (not that I'd read it) delighted at this threat to their masters.

the groutch

why should SF's policies stop FG & labour from supporting a motion of no confidence? can they not put any differences aside for a minute and agree that they want FF out?

southsiderosie

the groutch wrote: »

why should SF's policies stop FG & labour from supporting a motion of no confidence? can they not put any differences aside for a minute and agree that they want FF out?

But it's no confidence in Lenihan, not Cowen - that's not enough to trigger an election is it?

the groutch

southsiderosie wrote: »

But it's no confidence in Lenihan, not Cowen - that's not enough to trigger an election is it?

it's hard to know, but if FF were to lose such a vote due to independents/backbenchers supporting the motion, it'd make it very hard for them to govern, knowing that they are likely to lose future votes (including the finance bill)