Saorview Spec TV's (and Irish Panasonics)

championc

Hi all,

Does the Saorview spec for a TV do away with the need for a VHF tuner ? I never really followed other models but I know Panasonic do Irish specific ones which I'm sure are for the provision at present of VHF tuners.

It's just that UK versions which had MPEG-4 would possibly work with a little modification (interpretation of the 0x16 ServiceType Codec) if they weren't forced to continue incorporating the VHF tuner (although I know NTL users have basic channels across the VHF wave band)


C

watty

There isn't going to be ANY analogue after 2012. Much less VHF.

There will be no DTT ever on VHF, so absolutely no need for VHF Tuner if you have DTT. It's unlikely IMO that there will be VHF DTT unless they scrap DAB?

The UPC analogue service will be discontinued at some time and the norm would be UPC box. Digital UPC is cheaper than Analogue service.

AFAIK the Saorview Spec ( Nordig 2.0) pdf clarificatons spec (pdf from RTE NL) doesn't include a VHF tuner . [I was wrong] no Analogue though?

1) NorDig 2.0 Basic Profile @ High Definition Level
2) MHEG-5 UK Profile, version 1.06
3) Additions and clarifications as set out in this document

championc

So by all accounts, it would be silly for Panasonic not to make a combined UK / Irish model. I'm particularly interested in the G20B at present


C

byte

Panasonic are one of very few big companies that have different tuner modules for UK and Ireland. The likes of Sony, Samsung, LG, etc seem to just use one system internally, and you then, on first setup, choose your country, which determines your tuner setup. Makes more sense too, so dunno why Panny insist on not doing it.

Sam Russell

watty wrote: »

There isn't going to be ANY analogue after 2012. Much less VHF.

There will be no DTT ever on VHF, so absolutely no need for VHF Tuner if you have DTT.

The UPC analogue service will be discontinued at some time and the norm would be UPC box. Digital UPC is cheaper than Analogue service.

AFAIK the Saorview Spec ( Nordig 2.0) pdf clarificatons spec (pdf from RTE NL) doesn't include a VHF tuner or Analogue at all.

I'm not sure about the VHF.

From the spec:

3.3.2 RF Characteristics
The NorDig IRD shall have RF characteristics equal to or better than specified below:
Input Frequency range: Digital signals 110 - 862 MHz
Analogue signals 47 - 862 MHz
Channel bandwidth: Digital signals 8 MHz
Analogue signals 7 and 8 MHz

I think 110MHz is VHF.

The Cush

watty wrote: »

There isn't going to be ANY analogue after 2012. Much less VHF.

There will be no DTT ever on VHF, so absolutely no need for VHF Tuner if you have DTT.

AFAIK the Saorview Spec ( Nordig 2.0) pdf clarificatons spec (pdf from RTE NL) doesn't include a VHF tuner or Analogue at all.

VHF Band III reception is mandatory in the Nordig spec. VHF III (7 MHz) is also part of the Irish DTT standard set back in 2007. Comreg said at that time "Band III may be considered post analogue switch off".

The Cush

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think 110MHz is VHF.

This from the Nordig receiver spec

VHF
VHF I (47 – 68 MHz) N/A
S Band I (104 – 174 MHz) Optional
VHF III (174 – 230 MHz) Mandatory
S Band II (230 – 300 MHz) Optional

UHF
S Band III (300 – 470 MHz) Optional
UHF IV (470 – 606 MHz) Mandatory
UHF V (606 – 862 MHz) Mandatory

watty

The Cush wrote: »

VHF Band III reception is mandatory in the Nordig spec. VHF III (7 MHz) is also part of the Irish DTT standard set back in 2007. Comreg said at that time "Band III may be considered post analogue switch off".

Interesting. I was led to believe that RTE had abandoned Band III DTT ambitions.

Still, I think unless they abandon DAB, the DTT on Band III is very unlikely.

The Cush

watty wrote: »

Still, I think unless they abandon DAB, the DTT on Band III is very unlikely.

We have one national VHF tv layer from RRC-06 and three national DAB layers. The tv allocation can be converted in 3/4 DAB allocations if not used for tv.

Sam Russell

VHF might be a good solution for NI, as it carries much better than UHF, and is not used for TV up there.

watty

Which also means though they won't have it on their tuners.
Would there be conflict with UK Mobile Radio and DAB licences in N.I. as they closed VHF TV in 1985?

The UK DAB bitrates are poor because they sold off too much Band III for Mobile Radio etc and don't have enough Multiplexes for the number of stations. AAC rather than MP2 wasn't available at the time.



In terms of the Topology and coverage on UHF from Clermont Carn, Cairn Hill, Monaghan, Truskmore and Holyhill, I think that though VHF might add 20% geographic, it's not going to add much population.

I rather suspect that's it's been decided to wait and see what happens with Saorsat. Governments & RTE NL won't spend money on solutions that benefit very few.

mrleehealy

not sure if im posting in right place here,

i need to buy a tv in next couple of weeks, needs to be saorview, 26-28 inch,
would like 28 but its an odd size. is there a list of saorview tvs available. seen 1 in power city, walker 26" 299euro.

a list and some advice would be appreciated.

thanks

The Cush

Sam Russell wrote: »

VHF might be a good solution for NI, as it carries much better than UHF, and is not used for TV up there.

The UK doesn't have a VHF DTT allocation from RRC-06 (other than a few on their South Atlantic islands).

The Cush

mrleehealy wrote: »

is there a list of saorview tvs available. seen 1 in power city, walker 26" 299euro.

a list and some advice would be appreciated.

That's the complete list at the moment.

The service is due to partly launch from a number of transmitters by the end of the month. Wait until the end of Oct into Nov, there may be other Saorview certified TVs about at that time but I would suspect it could be into next year before we see a decent selection on the shelves.

mrleehealy

thanks for the advice,

what is the real benefit of saorview, is there other tvs that will do the same job,

thanks

watty

TV instead of no TV from Aerial when Analogue is turned off (target October 2012).

A Saorview certified TV or set box will fully work with the service.

Non-certified TVs can / might have any mix of:

• Nothing at all received
• No Picture
• No Sound or intermittent sound
• No OTA upgrades (Firmware upgrade automatic via aerial)
• No full 7 day guide
• No special as yet undefined interactive serivices
• No integration of Internet based feeds on TVs/Setbox with ethernet (RTE planning this)
• Problems with per program switching between SD and HD in Transmission.
• Some other weird issue
• lack of VHF and there is a mad decision to open a VHF multiplex (very unlikely but it's in the spec and unlike UK, Ireland does have VHF DTT allocations)

An uncertified HD MPEG4 AAC DTT TV or Setbox may work perfect for ever. But unless you understand the specs how do you know? Even if it seems OK to day it might not tomorrow (AAC sound, Serivce ID, Mysterious use of MHEG5).
While the French TNT HD TVs and Setbox give Sound and picture (no MHEG5 middleware) and the UK DVB-T2 "Freeview HD" may even do all that and MHEG5 too, neither is entire "piece of mind".

The UK D-Book has been interpreted narrowly in the past and caused problems on some Panasonic Models. French TNT-HD gear doesn't have MHEG5 middleware.

RTE do have ambitious plans for the MHEG. It's not simply a replacement for Teletext and standard DVB EPG (Program guide).

I'd now sooner risk a good brand of UK DVB-T2 "Freeview HD" setbox or TV than a French TNT HD, but other than USB dongles/PCI cards etc for Media PCs, laptops and Servers, on the Setbox/TV front waiting till November ... March period for more choice of actual Saorview certified is the "Peace of mind" route.

31st October isn't a full launch. "Full Public Launch" is not decided yet but sometime between April 2011 and December 2011, with October 2012 as the most recent target for Analogue Switch off.

BEASTERLY

watty wrote: »

TV instead of no TV from Aerial when Analogue is turned off (target October 2012).

A Saorview certified TV or set box will fully work with the service.

Non-certified TVs can / might have any mix of:

• Nothing at all received
• No Picture
• No Sound or intermittent sound
• No OTA upgrades (Firmware upgrade automatic via aerial)
• No full 7 day guide
• No special as yet undefined interactive serivices
• No integration of Internet based feeds on TVs/Setbox with ethernet (RTE planning this)
• Problems with per program switching between SD and HD in Transmission.
• Some other weird issue
• lack of VHF and there is a mad decision to open a VHF multiplex (very unlikely but it's in the spec and unlike UK, Ireland does have VHF DTT allocations)

An uncertified HD MPEG4 AAC DTT TV or Setbox may work perfect for ever. But unless you understand the specs how do you know? Even if it seems OK to day it might not tomorrow (AAC sound, Serivce ID, Mysterious use of MHEG5).
While the French TNT HD TVs and Setbox give Sound and picture (no MHEG5 middleware) and the UK DVB-T2 "Freeview HD" may even do all that and MHEG5 too, neither is entire "piece of mind".

The UK D-Book has been interpreted narrowly in the past and caused problems on some Panasonic Models. French TNT-HD gear doesn't have MHEG5 middleware.

RTE do have ambitious plans for the MHEG. It's not simply a replacement for Teletext and standard DVB EPG (Program guide).

I'd now sooner risk a good brand of UK DVB-T2 "Freeview HD" setbox or TV than a French TNT HD, but other than USB dongles/PCI cards etc for Media PCs, laptops and Servers, on the Setbox/TV front waiting till November ... March period for more choice of actual Saorview certified is the "Peace of mind" route.

31st October isn't a full launch. "Full Public Launch" is not decided yet but sometime between April 2011 and December 2011, with October 2012 as the most recent target for Analogue Switch off.

What is MHEG , will a MPEG4 tv receive this?

mrleehealy

Thanks for the advice,

so i need the telly urgently enough, would we say my best bet is the walker 26" saorview ready from power city, it will be ready for the switchover, should it even last that long?

championc

watty wrote: »

TV instead of no TV from Aerial when Analogue is turned off (target October 2012).

A Saorview certified TV or set box will fully work with the service.

Non-certified TVs can / might have any mix of:

• Nothing at all received
• No Picture
• No Sound or intermittent sound
• No OTA upgrades (Firmware upgrade automatic via aerial)
• No full 7 day guide
• No special as yet undefined interactive serivices
• No integration of Internet based feeds on TVs/Setbox with ethernet (RTE planning this)
• Problems with per program switching between SD and HD in Transmission.
• Some other weird issue
• lack of VHF and there is a mad decision to open a VHF multiplex (very unlikely but it's in the spec and unlike UK, Ireland does have VHF DTT allocations)

An uncertified HD MPEG4 AAC DTT TV or Setbox may work perfect for ever. But unless you understand the specs how do you know? Even if it seems OK to day it might not tomorrow (AAC sound, Serivce ID, Mysterious use of MHEG5).
While the French TNT HD TVs and Setbox give Sound and picture (no MHEG5 middleware) and the UK DVB-T2 "Freeview HD" may even do all that and MHEG5 too, neither is entire "piece of mind".

The UK D-Book has been interpreted narrowly in the past and caused problems on some Panasonic Models. French TNT-HD gear doesn't have MHEG5 middleware.

RTE do have ambitious plans for the MHEG. It's not simply a replacement for Teletext and standard DVB EPG (Program guide).

I'd now sooner risk a good brand of UK DVB-T2 "Freeview HD" setbox or TV than a French TNT HD, but other than USB dongles/PCI cards etc for Media PCs, laptops and Servers, on the Setbox/TV front waiting till November ... March period for more choice of actual Saorview certified is the "Peace of mind" route.

31st October isn't a full launch. "Full Public Launch" is not decided yet but sometime between April 2011 and December 2011, with October 2012 as the most recent target for Analogue Switch off.

It's certainly alot of bits and pieces to get correct and it certainly confirms the worthwhileness of getting a certified set. I suppose our Boardies here will know most of the sets that will be confirmed as a pass but there are some which could surprise us all. Many of us wouldn't care about new Firmware but we certainly would care if there were problems switching between SD and HD. The integration of Internet Based Feeds certainly is interesting too and for the future, certainly another reason to have a certified set.

Please Panny, get us a Saorview version of the G20 !!!

Sam Russell

championc wrote: »

Please Panny, get us a Saorview version of the G20 !!!

......... and please, Panny, can we have it with Freesat HD!:)

championc

Sam Russell wrote: »

......... and please, Panny, can we have it with Freesat HD!:)

BTW, does anyone know if there is anything to confine the Freesat system to being deployed on UK models only ?

Mind you, I read the G20 manual and the set seems to have a list of quite a few other satellites - so it's not just limited to the Freesat bouquet of channels. Obviously, you'd loose the EPG


C

The Cush

BEASTERLY wrote: »

What is MHEG , will a MPEG4 tv receive this?

MHEG-5 is a piece of software built into some digital TVs which is used to display Digital Aertel and MHEG-5 epg. Saorview certified receivers will have it. Non certified receivers may or may not have it. Those receivers without MHEG-5 will display traditional "analogue" teletext and display a 7 day guide on the built in manufacturers epg.

mrleehealy wrote: »

so i need the telly urgently enough, would we say my best bet is the walker 26" saorview ready from power city, it will be ready for the switchover, should it even last that long?

If you want a Saorview tv now this is your only option and because it's Saorview certified it is ready for the switchover.

Macy0161

The Cush wrote: »

If you want a Saorview tv now this is your only option and because it's Saorview certified it is ready for the switchover.

Is it definitely certified? Powercity have been selling "Irish DTT ready" TV's for some time now, so is it possible it is simply mpeg4?

bob11

Hi Guys,

Just wanted to ask a question that some of ye gurus may be able to help with ..

I have 2 Panasonics that I can watch DTT on :
37 LZD81
50 V10

I realise that there is a problem with the Panasonics not conforming with the exact Saorview specs, but both TVs are using a different Audio channel and I wonder is there a way to change the "default" Audio channel ?

On the channels that are broadcasting Multi-Audio, my 37 LZD81 seems to broadcast the "silent" channel, which then requires me to use the Option button to change over to the "proper" Audio channel.

My 50V10 appears to broadcast the "Correct" Audio channel ..

I know that this may be an issue specific to the Panasonics, but just wondering if there is a way to save the prefered Audio channel..

It's just a bit of a pain to change over using the Option Button every time ...

Let me know if anyone can help ..

Cheers,

Bob

The Cush

Macy0161 wrote: »

Is it definitely certified? Powercity have been selling "Irish DTT ready" TV's for some time now, so is it possible it is simply mpeg4?

Walker appear to be the only manufacturer to have Saorview certified products
http://www.walker.ie/pages/saorview.html
http://www.techtir.ie/blog/watty/possible-saorview-logo
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=68252949#post68252949
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=68216883#post68216883

"Irish DTT ready" would indicate they are MPEG-4 compatible.

mrleehealy

http://www.computeruniverse.net/products/e90383797/hannspree-sj28dmbb.asp

what do you think of this tv,
its mpeg-4 compatible,
im not really that fussy about epg, etc as its for a bedroom, also will have access to play tv for ps3 if that helps,

have been offered this tv for 250 euro

please tell me what you think.
thanks

The Cush

watty wrote: »

A Saorview certified TV or set box will fully work with the service.

Non-certified TVs can / might have any mix of:

[*]Problems with per program switching between SD and HD in Transmission.

Shouldn't be a problem, RTÉ has stated "all of the existing RTE 2 SD content (i.e. programmes, commercials, studio inserts etc.) will be up-converted to HD for transmission, and transmitted around the native HD events".

watty

Agreed that should be the case, especially when 2nd mux starts.

But I wonder is it the case initially? If TV3 & TV3e don't join till after the 2nd mux is online, then there is no difficulty with full time HD stream.

Mike 1972

watty wrote: »

Would there be conflict with UK Mobile Radio and DAB licences in N.I. as they closed VHF TV in 1985?

UK DAB only uses a small amount of the top end of Band 3

The mobile radio allocations are AFaIK only for mainland Britain and seem to be almost unused even there. Ive never understood why UK PMR needs so many frequencies anyway. For decades the development of FM radio was held up by the presence of PMR (including the Police which was pure insanity) on Band 2. Then it all got moved up supposedly to the former Band 3 TV allocation. Even though just about everywhere else accommodate all their PMR outside the broadcast bands.

Given that there are six (8 meg wide) Irish VHF channels (Kippure, Truskmore and Monaghan RTE 1/2) which need to be protected within part/all of Northern Ireland the availability of band 3 here for PMR is severely limited