Karma..?

gambler31

Im not much into philosophy, I enjoyed Nietzsche as a teenager (ok 2 years ago!) but thats the height of it.

So I was just thinking today. Say a vet, gets an animal- lets just say a puppy. Who's being in an accident, or has some curable sickness (but just nobody is willing to finance the medicine) and the vet puts this puppy down.

In essence this is taking a life (even if it is an animal its still a life)- so would that vet be letting themselves in for bad karma?

Maybe the rest of the work they do, helping and curing other animals provides even more good karma which outbalances the bad?

I should probably just say I dont believe in karma myself (though I know a lot of people who do), and I personally dont think anything would happen the vet, (to keep with a similar context) lets look to the people in abattoirs, if karmas real- well then I dont fancy their odds of living much longer than a month after taking up the job

But just for the sake off it, if Karma was real. How would the said vet work out.

A vet putting a suffering animal to sleep is following his dharma so I can't imagine 'bad' karma would arise.

dunsandin

It is better to kill deliberately than to kill by accident. If I see an animal suffering and put it out of its misery it does not worry me, I would wish the same for myself, but if I am driving and I hit an animal, it bugs me to hell, and I regard it as bad karma.

sogood

I used to believe in karma, for much the same reason that many people choose to believe in god. It's a feel good thing, justification for my good behaviour, secure in the (somewhat smug) belief that my good deeds would be rewarded, except that I want my reward in this life! I happily convinced myself that I did good, because it was "the right thing to do", you know, doing good for goods sake.

But eventually, it slowly dawned on me that I was deluding myself and I came to accept that life is a lottery, good bad or indifferent. Sure, you can do a certain amount to help direct or influence the end result or outcome of any given actions, but there is still and always will be, the element of chance, those things that you just cant factor into the equation, the curve balls that life throws us all from time to time.

I took the time and trouble to study the pattern, if any, that my life took and regardless of my behaviour, "good" or "bad" there was absolutely no discernible influence in either case, no karma, good, bad or indifferent.

I have often put myself way out on a limb for others, especially covertly, so there would be no apparent gain to me. My actions would have been, in effect, secret. (enter smug satisfaction, human failing of sorts) and I quietly, secretly expected a return of some sort for my benevolence. But was seriously short changed. Also, expecting a reaction of this sort to my actions, almost presupposes the intervention of some omnipotent force or power, influencing my life, balancing my karma account. Some people call this "god" as opposed to karma and as I am a confirmed atheist, then I suppose I must let go of this self inflicted belief system. So, if a vet kills a puppy, if a dictator kills millions of people, whats the difference in the grand scheme of things, as long as no one ever finds out and the perpetrator can never be brought to justice. History must be filled with murderers, rapists, thieves etc. who lived long and happy lives, by virtue of never being caught. Likewise, young children may often be struck down with terrible afflictations or illnesses, too young to have ever done any wrong in their lives. Where is their karma?

Just my 2 pence worth.

acoc100

sogood wrote: »

Likewise, young children may often be struck down with terrible afflictations or illnesses, too young to have ever done any wrong in their lives. Where is their karma?

Just my 2 pence worth.

Reincarnation is one controversial suggestion thats sometimes put forward.
Not saying I personally believe in it.

randomhuman

gambler31 wrote: »

Im not much into philosophy, I enjoyed Nietzsche as a teenager (ok 2 years ago!) but thats the height of it.

So I was just thinking today. Say a vet, gets an animal- lets just say a puppy. Who's being in an accident, or has some curable sickness (but just nobody is willing to finance the medicine) and the vet puts this puppy down.

In essence this is taking a life (even if it is an animal its still a life)- so would that vet be letting themselves in for bad karma?

Maybe the rest of the work they do, helping and curing other animals provides even more good karma which outbalances the bad?

I should probably just say I dont believe in karma myself (though I know a lot of people who do), and I personally dont think anything would happen the vet, (to keep with a similar context) lets look to the people in abattoirs, if karmas real- well then I dont fancy their odds of living much longer than a month after taking up the job

But just for the sake off it, if Karma was real. How would the said vet work out.

sogood wrote: »

I used to believe in karma, for much the same reason that many people choose to believe in god. It's a feel good thing, justification for my good behaviour, secure in the (somewhat smug) belief that my good deeds would be rewarded, except that I want my reward in this life! I happily convinced myself that I did good, because it was "the right thing to do", you know, doing good for goods sake.

But eventually, it slowly dawned on me that I was deluding myself and I came to accept that life is a lottery, good bad or indifferent. Sure, you can do a certain amount to help direct or influence the end result or outcome of any given actions, but there is still and always will be, the element of chance, those things that you just cant factor into the equation, the curve balls that life throws us all from time to time.

I think people get the wrong idea about karma. I don't think it's a force, or some inexplicable mechanism underlying the universe that metes out justice for breaking a set of arbitrary rules. It's the simple idea that thoughts lead to actions, and that actions have consequences. The nature of the consequences are determined by the nature of the thoughts and actions which led to them. Not absolutely, but generally. This is where the idea of "good" and "bad" karma comes from, though what is "good" and "bad" depends on the perceptions of the individual. We're also not isolated from one another, we're connected. Other people's bad behaviour can effect you negatively through no fault of your own, but you still have a choice about how to react to that circumstance, to amplify that negativity or to dissipate it, with further consequences flowing naturally from that choice.

I don't think it's even really possible to look at an individual and their actions and say that they will definitely have positive or negative consequences, and certainly not without considering the context in which the individual exists, their motives, state of mind, their culture, people around them etc. So the vet, well, it depends :P

sogood wrote: »

I have often put myself way out on a limb for others, especially covertly, so there would be no apparent gain to me. My actions would have been, in effect, secret. (enter smug satisfaction, human failing of sorts) and I quietly, secretly expected a return of some sort for my benevolence. But was seriously short changed. Also, expecting a reaction of this sort to my actions, almost presupposes the intervention of some omnipotent force or power, influencing my life, balancing my karma account. Some people call this "god" as opposed to karma and as I am a confirmed atheist, then I suppose I must let go of this self inflicted belief system.

So you tried to keep your good deeds a secret from the universe, and the universe obligingly overlooked you when handing out the rewards? Sounds like karma to me!

I am also an atheist, and I don't think the concept of karma requires any sort of deity. It's just a good way to think about our impact on other people and how to be happy and behave morally.

18AD

An interesting comparison can be drawn between the idea of Karma and an idea found in pschoanalysis (that I can't remember).

The idea is that people often repeat actions or recreate certain situations in order to overcome a past experience in their lives. So the past problem is trying to resolve itself by recreating itself. Since it's subconscious it often just gets viewed as coincidence or misfortune. eg. "Why does this always happen to me?" It is not saying that some people are not incredibly unlucky.

So your Karma, in this view, is basically how well you deal with existence in general. This also means that self awareness is crucial to advancement, since you must be a aware of your repetative behaviour.

The parallel is uncanny, in my opinion.

Best.
AD

18AD

gambler31 wrote: »

Im not much into philosophy, I enjoyed Nietzsche as a teenager (ok 2 years ago!) but thats the height of it.

Nietzsche had an idea called The Eternal Return of the same. This may be of some significance to a discussion on Karma.

Of course he was using this for different reasons. Here's my favourite quote:

The greatest burden. - What would happen if one day or night a demon were to steal upon you in your loneliest loneliness and say to you, “You will have to live this life - as you are living it now and have lived it in the past - once again and countless times more; and there will be nothing new to it, but every pain and every pleasure, every thought and sigh, and everything unutterably petty or grand in your life will have to come back to you, all in the same sequence and order - even this spider, and that moonlight between the trees, even this moment and I myself. The eternal hourglass of existence turning over and over - and you with it, speck of dust!” Would you not cast yourself down, gnash your teeth, and curse the demon who said these things? Or have you ever experienced a tremendous moment when you would reply to him, “You are a god; never have I heard anything more godly!” If that thought ever came to prevail in you, it would transform you, such as you are, and perhaps it would mangle you. The question posed to each thing you do, “Do you will this once more and countless times more?” would weigh upon your actions as the greatest burden! Or how beneficent would you have to become towards yourself and toward life to demand nothing more than this eternal sanction and seal? -

- Nietzsche The Gay Science

randomhuman

Legislators in Arizona have an interesting take on karma, apparently seeing it as a form of human legal system (some sort of eye for an eye thing perhaps?). They have pre-emptively banned it just in case it ever reaches American shores:

http://thebuddhistblog.blogspot.com/2011/02/arizona-bans-karma-seriously.html

nakedpimp

Seriously lads, we know good things happen to bad people and bad things to good people. To answer the original question, if the vet doesn't believe in karma then nothing is going to happen to him. What do you call a nun who wants to kill people?

18AD

nakedpimp wrote: »

if the vet doesn't believe in karma then nothing is going to happen to him

I think this approach takes karma to be something outside of the self. I'm pretty sure that a reincarnating soul travels along a path of enlightenment according to it's own karma. Karma doesn't happen to people.

That's how I thought it went.

Best.
AD

roosh

just to add to what randomhuman was saying: Karma is simply "the law of cause and effect"; it is the law that every single action has a consequence, regardless of what that action is; thoughts lead to actions; thoughts lead to emotions; actions lead to other thoughts, which lead to emotions, which lead to actions, etc. etc.

I wouldn't say that it is necessarily the notion of "what goes around comes around", or the idea of some kind of karmic, double-entry, book-keeping system - although it might all even itself out over the lifetime of the universe (who knows?).

What you touch on 18AD, is very relevant as well; I would say that it is an example of Karma in action. The sub-conscious thought processes lead to actions, and unresolved issues will be more sub-consciously active.

Again, to echo what randomhuman says - with respect to the vet; it is impossible to say what his karma would be, without knowing his motivation for putting the puppy down. If he puts the puppy down because it is genuinely in the best interests of the puppy, and/or other animals - if curing the puppy diverted resources away from other animals that might benefit more from them - then he will probably rest well in the fact that he has done "right"; he won't experience any guilt; his future actions will not be influenced by his guilt.

If his motivation for putting the puppy down was more selfish; if it would have been possible to save the puppy, but he simply wanted to use the time for his own leisure; or he chose not to finance the operation because he wanted the money for a new car he didn't really need, then he might sub-consciously experience guilt, which might affect his future decisions and actions.

Of course, he might put the puppy down with all the "right" motivation; it might be in the best interest of the puppy; it might be in the best interest of other animals; he might have done everything in his power to save the puppy; but he might still feel sadness at the fact of having to put the puppy down. This sadness would be part of his karma, and it would affect his actions, which would be part of his karma - as would the consequences of those actions.

meryem

randomhuman wrote: »

Legislators in Arizona have an interesting take on karma, apparently seeing it as a form of human legal system (some sort of eye for an eye thing perhaps?). They have pre-emptively banned it just in case it ever reaches American shores:

http://thebuddhistblog.blogspot.com/2011/02/arizona-bans-karma-seriously.html

It makes me feel like Arizona legislators are way illiterate than poorest of poor country people dying with hunger. Can't believe this news.

How can they get ride of natural phenomena of nature. It's like by gaining power this state of America has tamed godly powers as well.

The simple meaning of Karma is; As you sow so shall you reap!

Now how can these guys get free of there good and bad deeds. It's just a matter of time a person reaps the dividends of his deeds like Hitler and other faced.