Thermostatic Valves for Radiators

mmurphy

My home is now allmost 9 years and I'm finding leaks on the current radiator valves, mainly because the cheap of the cheapest the builder had installed. I do go and tighten then every few weeks but its gone as far as any more tightening I feel its only the just come off !!

so I'm considering changing them for thermostatic valves and suggestions what are good and what are bad, my heating system has a timer so its either all on or all off no fancy zones etc

I have 12 Radiatiors on my house any idea what this should cost for the valves and a plumber to fit and test

heinbloed

Your radiators are your zones. No fancy equipment other than valves in the radiators are necessary to create a "zone".
If the entire heating system is still o.k. and only TRVs have to be fitted then this is a DIY job for the handy person.
Check the various manufacturer's home pages to see how their products are fitted into an existing system. It's simple enough.
Frequently the existing valve can stay in place, needs not to be exchanged. Only the head, the thermostatic element. This means a dry job, no draining, refilling.
But as you spoke of leaks along existing valves you better seal the threads. Take one of the old valves with you when shopping around. The treads have to fit, suitable adapters can be purchased in one go to join the new thermostatic element with the old valve.Some TRV manufacturers offer a set of adapters included, see if they're the right ones.

Joey the lips

50 euro a rad and the cost of the TRV....

Buy a good TRV.

I always suggest everyone buy goodone so when the heads break off they are replaceable..


Better still if you are clever buy a couple of heads...


I dont think it makes sense to put TRV's upstairs...however i will let a plumber advise on that.

leex

I'm in same boat as OP. As it happens I have plumber calling tomorrow to fix an issue and he'll have to drain the (pressurised) system. I have 20 rads. Some questions:

* Is it worth fitting Thermostatic valves at this time?
* If so - should most of them be replaced or are there any rooms that wouldn't need them?
* Current valves are Myson Matchmate - would it be best to go with Myson again?

heinbloed

Yes, it is worth it as long as the building is in use.
Once you're at the job do all of them.

Note again (as the previous poster should also):
It might NOT be necessary to exchange the
VALVES. But to fix thermostatic elements onto the already existing valves.
Cheaper, easier, faster.
An existing valve can be tested, to see if a new thermostatic element will turn it into a TRV: pull-off the white plastic cap. Try to push down the nippel, use a plier, a spoon upside down held in your palm, for protection. If you can push it down (not screwing it down!) then your existing valve is ready for a thermostatic element to be fixed onto it.

If exchanging the entire valves don't forget to do the hydraulic adjustment of the complete heating system afterwards.

Sparkpea

I always replace the lockshield at the same time if they are cheap too.

I use myson trv's and myson matchmaster lockshields, cost about £15-£20 a set, myson cylinder stay could be up to £50 then about £200 labour cost.

IMO £350-£400 isn't a bad price for plumber to do them all and test the system.

If ur doing them all it's best to also fit an automatic bye-pass valve at the boiler, which would cost extra. It means when all ur valves close and the house/hw is warm enough the pump pumps the heat around the bye-pass loop rather than into the header tank if open vented system.

Micky Dolenz

Joey the lips wrote: »

50 euro a rad and the cost of the TRV....

Buy a good TRV.

.

:eek: €50 per rad.

Drain down system, fit 12 trv's. refill system with inhibitor. Days work at the very most., (I would say 6 hours labour).

there is no way a person should be charged anywhere near €50 a rad plus the price of the trv.

yoshytoshy

Job I was on last week ,the guy wanted 8 trv's. I was already changing his boiler so I didn't need to charge for calling out.

I charged him 20euro per trv (Danfoss) and €120 labour ,think it was €280 altogether.

The tail pieces on the radiators didn't need to be changed

If anyone is getting trv's ,get something else done at the same time to make things cheaper ,maybe get your system cleaned.

kay 9

leex wrote: »

I'm in same boat as OP. As it happens I have plumber calling tomorrow to fix an issue and he'll have to drain the (pressurised) system. I have 20 rads. Some questions:

* Is it worth fitting Thermostatic valves at this time?
* If so - should most of them be replaced or are there any rooms that wouldn't need them?
* Current valves are Myson Matchmate - would it be best to go with Myson again?

Myson are the next best to Pegler, a quality valve;)

Joey the lips

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

:eek: €50 per rad.

Drain down system, fit 12 trv's. refill system with inhibitor. Days work at the very most., (I would say 6 hours labour).

there is no way a person should be charged anywhere near €50 a rad plus the price of the trv.

Cool...i am enlightened... so really a days work...

Might actually get it done...

Do you still believe its worth getting upstairs done...

Traditional

39e a rad incl thermostatic valve and tail piece if required , a guy i know does them for, and radiator flushing as well if needed at half the price

mmurphy

I got a local guy to install the valves he did the lot for 450euro and supplied danfoss valves he seemed a bit anal about these danfoss valves, he did change both sides of the rad and took the rads outside and flushed them with the garden hose along with putting some special liquid in the tank upstairs to prevent leaks and condition the water.

all seems ok but I think these valves were not a so good idea, ther is markings on the valves 1 2 3 4 & Full

rad only gets warm at 2.5 so im a bit dissapointed

I was hoping I could have ensuites at 1 or 2 and spare bedrooms at 1-2ish just to get rid of the chill, so im a bit confussed or maybe I was expecting too much

any ideas here would be welcome.

ntpm

mmurphy wrote: »

I got a local guy to install the valves he did the lot for 450euro and supplied danfoss valves he seemed a bit anal about these danfoss valves, he did change both sides of the rad and took the rads outside and flushed them with the garden hose along with putting some special liquid in the tank upstairs to prevent leaks and condition the water.

all seems ok but I think these valves were not a so good idea, ther is markings on the valves 1 2 3 4 & Full

rad only gets warm at 2.5 so im a bit dissapointed

I was hoping I could have ensuites at 1 or 2 and spare bedrooms at 1-2ish just to get rid of the chill, so im a bit confussed or maybe I was expecting too much

any ideas here would be welcome.

the guy seemed to know what he was doing. Especially if he took rads off and washed them out.
Danfoss seem ok. I prefere peglar or myson but tbo much the same.

The way TRV's work is by sensing the room temperature and I fing the indication on them is a guidline.
* usually means frost protection/ minimum temp 10 degC
1 around 12 - 14 C
2 around 14 - 16 C
3 around 16 - 18 C { Usually recommended room temperature/setpoint}
4 around 18 - 20 C
5 around 20 - 22 C / max temp range.
( Manufactures literature may detail temp ranges)

The idea is that the TRV should keep the room at a constant temp.
You will need to adjust the TRV's until you find a happy setpoint.
Also you may need to have the boiler / timeclock on for longer periods to ensure that the rooms remain at constant temperature. The fabric of the building needs to be heated and maintained at a comfortable temperature. This does not mean that you will be using more fuel as the TRVs will make the rads more efficient than previously.

Traditional

sounds like you were ripped off , valves on en suites ?? no wrong should not be fitted in bathrooms , no 1 , no 2 is rads not properly flushed out , what about the pipe work was that also flushed out ? no dont think so . its a proper power flush you need not a half cocked version , sounds like your man is a handyman .

Sparkpea

I prefer to have trvs on all rads, otherwise heat is just pumping out of the ones without trvs so your not saving that much oil really.

I moved into a new house in june and its only 2 zones HW/CH, theres a room stat in the hall downstairs and the small rad in the hall downstairs and the rad in the landing has no TRV on it so always pump out heat until the stat turns off. I said to myself I should put 2 TRVs on these before I get carpets down but never did and now regret it. may do it at the weekend. Basically what I will do then is set to hall/landing to 2.5/3 and turn the room stat up to 30 so the zone valve doesn't close. the rest of the rads are set to 3 except our bedroom which is 2 and our baby sons room which is 3.5 to give him a little bit extra heat. At the mo sometimes the stat turns off all the rads - mainly his room because the hall is getting too warm. Theres a byepass and all on so adding the other 2 trvs shouldnt make much of a diff tho i'll check to make sure its not expanding. Theres a stat to turn off the motorized valve for the HW so that works out well. Its a gas system and although its on pretty regular for HW and heating mainly in the morning the usage is still very low. Less than £20 per month and that includes all cooking with gas hob and oven. Obviously I expect this to rise as it gets cooler but anyway...

ntpm

Traditional's post: I beg to differ.

Part L Building regulations/ Good working practice is that all radiators should have TRV's, except the location where ther is a room stat ( which should be wired to a motorized zone valve and utilised for boiler interlock).
The TRV's will maintatain the required temperature set.
What is stopping the Ensuite/ bathroom getting too warm if the control room stat in another room is not satified??

Also Sparkpea ; I wouldn't fit TRV on room/ landing radiator as you need the stat to control the boiler.
You would also need a by pass valve just incase all the TRV's were satisfied and shut down the boiler may still carry on running if the stat was set too high. Dead heading pump etc.

My experience to date is that most electricians have not wired the controls correctly.

mmurphy

Thanks for the commentsm Maybe I should just give the system a week or so and adjust the TRV room by room until im happy with the TEMP.

Question? as I have a outdoor boiler, which is firebird which I really think are oil guzzlers but they make them nearby so why not support the locals!! anyway my question is what temperture should I set the stat on the boiler at? is 70-75 too high.

also how effective would it be to have all the rads on setting 2 on the trv's and leave boiler on all the time or would I need a direct oil line to shell

Sparkpea

ntpm wrote: »

Also Sparkpea ; I wouldn't fit TRV on room/ landing radiator as you need the stat to control the boiler.
You would also need a by pass valve just incase all the TRV's were satisfied and shut down the boiler may still carry on running if the stat was set too high. Dead heading pump etc.

My experience to date is that most electricians have not wired the controls correctly.

my timeclock is wired to fire the boiler and the room stat is only wired to control the motorised valve for the heating and the byepass is already fitted.

mmurphy wrote: »

Thanks for the commentsm Maybe I should just give the system a week or so and adjust the TRV room by room until im happy with the TEMP.

Question? as I have a outdoor boiler, which is firebird which I really think are oil guzzlers but they make them nearby so why not support the locals!! anyway my question is what temperture should I set the stat on the boiler at? is 70-75 too high.

also how effective would it be to have all the rads on setting 2 on the trv's and leave boiler on all the time or would I need a direct oil line to shell

this weather 65 should be ample, as it gets colder maybe move it up to 70. remember the lower it is the less oil you use (in my opinion). 65 will give u plenty of hot water also even if the boiler is only on for an hour.

I have a retired customer who is in and out of her house alot and likes it to remain the same temp all day so she has her heating set for all day, 7am-10pm or something and controls the rooms with the trvs, most are set to 2 except the bathroom and lounge which is 3. she has a new HE boiler and finds it works best for her this way as shes not constantly heating cool water all day. Theres a cylinder stat on the HW so that controls the HW for her so she always has enough.

Personally, its not in long enough to tell about the oil usage yet but in my old house I did this last winter as it was FREEZING and we had a tiny baby so needed some heat, also our boiler was in the garage and pipes fed at high level, although lagged they still would have burst in the frost so leaving the heating on meant there was a constant flow of hot water through the pipes. I had my heating on for 2-3 months straight and controlled the rooms with trvs and yes I probably did use a fair bit of oil but it was hard to compare it to a normal winter as we've never had snow/frost like that before..

ntpm

Sparkpea wrote: »

my timeclock is wired to fire the boiler and the room stat is only wired to control the motorised valve for the heating and the byepass is already fitted.



this weather 65 should be ample, as it gets colder maybe move it up to 70. remember the lower it is the less oil you use (in my opinion). 65 will give u plenty of hot water also even if the boiler is only on for an hour.

I have a retired customer who is in and out of her house alot and likes it to remain the same temp all day so she has her heating set for all day, 7am-10pm or something and controls the rooms with the trvs, most are set to 2 except the bathroom and lounge which is 3. she has a new HE boiler and finds it works best for her this way as shes not constantly heating cool water all day. Theres a cylinder stat on the HW so that controls the HW for her so she always has enough.

Personally, its not in long enough to tell about the oil usage yet but in my old house I did this last winter as it was FREEZING and we had a tiny baby so needed some heat, also our boiler was in the garage and pipes fed at high level, although lagged they still would have burst in the frost so leaving the heating on meant there was a constant flow of hot water through the pipes. I had my heating on for 2-3 months straight and controlled the rooms with trvs and yes I probably did use a fair bit of oil but it was hard to compare it to a normal winter as we've never had snow/frost like that before..

Sparkpea re:your 1st comment:
Your boiler will be on when ever the timeclock has switched on a zone.
This will mean your boiler will cycle on and off depending on your boiler thermostat. This stat
Instead of switching on and off when there is a demand for heating from your thermostats reading the actual temp inside your house ( water or roomstats).

This is known as boiler interlock ( building regs Part L).
The boiler cycling is wasteful as far as fuel is concerned and additional wear and tear on boiler.
A Bypass is there to ensure correct pressure/flow for pump as the TRV's regulate flow and if the overheat thermostat switches on the pump. Also heeded on gas boilers to allow the pump overrun to disipate any heat in the heat exchanger.

MMurphy See above comment.
I instal firebirds and am fairly happy ( more importantly so are the customers). Correct controls can make a huge difference on fuel bills (and PERCIEVED COMFORT) , this is why they are a legal requirement and introduced into Building Regs.


Sparkpea re:your 2nd comments:
Totall agree with leaving temp around 65C. Perfect for hot water and ifyou have TRV's the rads will use this loweer temp more efficiently. The return temp to the boiler will be lower and if it is a condensing boiler it will make it run in condensing mode ( more efficient).
During the colder weather you may need to turn the boiler stat up
to 70-85C to give more of a boost to rads.

Re: Your retired customer. SPOT ON.
I tend to take the approach that a house that is already warm only takes a little heat to maintain it, instead of switching on and off and allowing the rooms to get cold.
As long as there is a roomstat acting as a master control ( and boiler interlock) you can leave the timeclock/programmer on for longer periods.