Will this mess happen again??

WiDGe->

Im still trying to get my head around everything. Its been 2 years and I still cant believe it. My question is - what is stopping this from happening again? I know about this new EU watchdog or banking police or whatever but I dont see that working - there will always be backhanders taking place. It seems to me that banks and bankers are immune from going under - they all seem to be doing pretty well at the moment financially. Im seething here tbh.

Are we actually going to change our constitution so that we can jail the next generation of Sean Fitzpatrick's or are we going to see this whole mess again in a couple of decades time? And I know its probably been done to death before - but are we going to actually prosecute Fitzpatrick for anything? Will he go to jail at all? Same for the rest of the banking bosses.

Mr Benevolent

Until the current tranche of politicians are gone (every last one of them) and we start modelling our economy and attitude on a proper country like Germany or Canada, there's little chance of anything changing. We're lazy and uninterested in everything. All problems are someone else's fault. No rules are followed, or the rules we make up are nonsensical.

This is not just a major embarrassment for the government and financial sector, it's a huge embarrassment for the public as a whole and for people as individuals. We are now uncomfortably aware of our own glaring weaknesses.

Bah, I could go on for another ten paragraphs but it'd only end in QED.

ei.sdraob

yes no lessons have been learned

danbohan

Confab wrote: »

Until the current tranche of politicians are gone (every last one of them) and we start modelling our economy and attitude on a proper country like Germany or Canada, there's little chance of anything changing. We're lazy and uninterested in everything. All problems are someone else's fault. No rules are followed, or the rules we make up are nonsensical.

This is not just a major embarrassment for the government and financial sector, it's a huge embarrassment for the public as a whole and for people as individuals. We are now uncomfortably aware of our own glaring weaknesses.

Bah, I could go on for another ten paragraphs but it'd only end in QED.

Until the current tranche of politicians are gone (every last one of them) and we start modelling our economy and attitude on a proper country like Germany or Canada, there's little chance of anything changing.

i remember young people saying that in the 80s and look at us now ,if anything the politicians we have now are worse and of less ability than then in all partys , i dont see anything changing here , not unless the austerity forces irish people to get up and do something about it .

Cookie_Monster

nothing. look back at the eighties where AIB were bailed out, not even 20 years later and they want out again. I give it another twenty this time too

Liam Byrne

Not unless those responsible are held accountable.

If banks can get billions of OUR money and get bailed out by (our) Government, then there's every incentive for them to try the same stunt again......there's no way they can lose - either gain through massive profiteering, crippling the economy, or break even through the bailout.

And while people may say that it can't happen again, well as others have pointed out this is at least the 2nd time for AIB, and they didn't learn their lesson the last time.

ART6

The difficulty I have with our current banking situation lies in what it means in terms of liability to be a company director. I'm not up to speed with Irish law, but have been over the years a director of UK companies. There, if a director is negligent or reckless with shareholders funds he can be (a) sued and dismissed by the shareholders and (b) investigated and probably disbarred by the DTI so that he cannot serve again as a director for a long period of time if ever. And every board of directors is considered to be jointly and severally responsible, so just one director going off the rails can land all of the others in big, big trouble.

Continuing to trade when it should be clear to the board that it cannot meet its obligations is trading in insolvency and is a very serious offence. Any director saying "No-one told me" is not considered to have any defence. As a director he is expected to know. That's what he is paid for.

Here, we have directors of major corporations pleading for public funds because they are insolvent (although they pretended otherwise). They continued to trade while approaching the government, therefore in my book they were deliberately and knowingly trading in insolvency. How many of them have been disbarred? How many of them are being investigated with a view to disbarment and prosecution for negligence? How many of them have been summarily dismissed by their shareholders?

What we have instead is Brian Cowen trotting out the "No-one told me" excuse, a financial regulator who had no idea what was going on when it was obvious to everyone else, but who supported it whole heartedly what ever it was. We have negligent directors gradually being eased out with massive pensions and severance payments and then moving into another board in the same sector. We now have a Regulator who is an import from another country because (I assume) we can't find one of our own who is not part of the club and who knows what he is doing.

In this forum people keep asking "Will we ever stop doing things this way?" Look around you folks. You escaped one yoke and promptly created another one from your own self-declared elite.

Looking back over this post I am almost inclined to withdraw it as it starts to look like trolling, but I am bl**dy furious at what has been done by what passes as a government and a grossly incompetent financial sector. I want them subjected to the same rules as me as a small company director.:mad:

flutered

i am in recipt of a disibility pension, the amount is 201 euro, three times in the last ten months i have been investigated, if i had been found to be fiddling, i would have been up in court, 300 million and no serious questions asked,

PCPhoto

flutered wrote: »

i am in recipt of a disibility pension, the amount is 201 euro, three times in the last ten months i have been investigated, if i had been found to be fiddling, i would have been up in court, 300 million and no serious questions asked,

problem is they can afford (using our money) to pay the fines and high priced solicitors to find loopholes in the laws....the ordinary person cant afford the time or money to get to use the loopholes.

this country is f00ked - there is no accountability if you have money...and unless that changes this will happen again !!!

jaakul

Confab wrote: »

we start modelling our economy and attitude on a proper country like Germany or Canada, there's little chance of anything changing. We're lazy and uninterested in everything. All problems are someone else's fault.

Totally agree here. In my opinion the current government just epitomises Irish society as it is today, and I think its our society and attitude as a nation that needs changing before we can consider ourselves safe from encountering something like this again.

Its not the lack of rules/regulations/laws to combat specific areas and people that have caused this whole debacle (and those before), its our attitude as a nation that got us into this mess, and will again. Until that changes we havent a hope!

fontanalis

jaakul wrote: »

Totally agree here. In my opinion the current government just epitomises Irish society as it is today, and I think its our society and attitude as a nation that needs changing before we can consider ourselves safe from encountering something like this again.

Its not the lack of rules/regulations/laws to combat specific areas and people that have caused this whole debacle (and those before), its our attitude as a nation that got us into this mess, and will again. Until that changes we havent a hope!

I have no doubt this could happen again, I guarantee there are a lot of peopel out there (and in the government) that think it's going to be great once property prices go up.

johnboy_123

jaakul wrote: »

Totally agree here. In my opinion the current government just epitomises Irish society as it is today, and I think its our society and attitude as a nation that needs changing before we can consider ourselves safe from encountering something like this again.

Its not the lack of rules/regulations/laws to combat specific areas and people that have caused this whole debacle (and those before), its our attitude as a nation that got us into this mess, and will again. Until that changes we havent a hope!

Just looking at this thread and there is already a sense of defeatism...nearly 100 years ago the likes of Pearse and others in 1916 wouldnt have taken this lying down...I genuinely believe that we have been brainwashed into thinking we have to vote for a political party...but what options have we got

Fianna Fall - current bunch of cronies
Fianna Gael - under Dame Enda I would touch with a barge poll and nearly the same agenda as Fianna Fail
Laboour - Who will continue to pander to the public sector unions
Sinn Fein - these guys have such a bad history and are badly organised

So with ingrained in the irish psychy to pick one its always going to be the best out of a bad bunch...What we need is a revolution and ask the IMF to come in and do what the above 4 partie wont and cannot do as there is cronyism all the way through all 4 main parties...We need an outsider to come in and sort us out...Come back Queen Elizabeth your loyal servants await you

ardmacha

Come back Queen Elizabeth your loyal servants await you

Speak for yourself.

johnboy_123

ardmacha wrote: »

Speak for yourself.

lol I knew I'd get someone goat with that sorry Ardmacha....But in all seriousness we need outside help as our home grown options are not worth a wan.k

Dirk Gently

flutered wrote: »

i am in recipt of a disibility pension, the amount is 201 euro, three times in the last ten months i have been investigated, if i had been found to be fiddling, i would have been up in court, 300 million and no serious questions asked,

This is the problem. There's laws for the great unwashed masses but nothing preventing someone being reckless with millions or becoming a threat to the sovereignty of the state.

Fail to pay your bin charges, a speeding fine etc, you'll be dealt with swiftly but there is no system to police national threats such as "too big to fail" entities.

If we don't future proof ourselves from this happening again then all this "sharing the pain" will be a futile exercise. Debt fuelled economies are simply not sustainable. I would welcome "draconian" policing of financial institutions. Frankly they should be a Tool dictated to by the state to lubricate the real economy, not virtual economies within themselves. We all know it will never happen though as everyone fears a flight of high interest risk free debt capital

johnboy_123

good point clownbag

anyways I am signing off as being self employed I actually have to do some work..but look forward to good debate on this issue...also I appologise if I come accross as a public sector basher ...I believe some of you do a fine job and deserver what you get but hand on heart I believe that the majority are over paid....

gollem_1975

will this mess happen again ?

well i would say no if you mean would this particular set of factors (many of which were outside our control) ever combine to form the current sh1tstorm we are in.

I would say yes if you are referring to economic boom-bust cycles (which affects all countries including Canada and Germany) the alternative is to have a state-planned economy which has been tried unsuccessfully in the ex-Communist bloc countries (and I wouldn't trust Our lot to do any better )

but the mess we are currently in and the solutions that are taken to "manage" the situation may cause other messes down the line.

I think(hope) that the myth that property only goes up is now dead.

unfortunately we are far from being out of the mess that we are currently in so wondering if this mess will happen again is fairly pointless.. more pressing is how long is the current one going to last and how are we going to be on the other side of it .

Liam Byrne

gollem_1975 wrote: »

I think(hope) that the myth that property only goes up is now dead.

FF don't think so, since that's supposedly the way that NAMA will be a "success".

gollem_1975

Liam Byrne wrote: »

FF don't think so, since that's supposedly the way that NAMA will be a "success".

man i'd hate to be the FF'er that calls to your door..

cremeegg

gollem_1975 wrote: »

man i'd hate to be the FF'er that calls to your door..

jesus id pity the fool tat calls to our door...FF fool that is.. ****.

Scuid Mhór

history will always repeat itself until you learn from it. i don't see our government learning any history any time soon, do you?

gollem_1975

Scuid Mhór wrote: »

history will always repeat itself until you learn from it. i don't see our government learning any history any time soon, do you?

Our current government will not be in power the next time this happens.

Its more important that we as individuals and as a collective learn from it.

the main lessons we should take from the celtic tiger years in my opinion is that
1) "the value of your investment can fall"
2) to question the objectivity of information coming from vested interests

what we learn from cleaning up the mess.. that remains to be seen

gollem_1975

cremeegg wrote: »

jesus id pity the fool tat calls to our door...FF fool that is.. ****.

I won't ask why

Liam Byrne

gollem_1975 wrote: »

man i'd hate to be the FF'er that calls to your door..

I'd hate to be an FF'er. Period.

As for them calling to my door, well there's no point because they're not going to get a vote even if hell DOES freeze over.

As to how I'll deal with the fools that do.......remains to be seen.

I might take one for the team and engage them for hours as to their incompetence and mismanagement so that they don't get to other doors.

Or I might just test the new legislation re "unwanted intruders with ill-intent", which describes them perfectly.

Mind you, given that I'm only allowed to defend my home, I guess all that depends on how Callely manages to get his mates to redefine "home".

Liam Byrne

gollem_1975 wrote: »

Our current government will not be in power the next time this happens.

Its more important that we as individuals and as a collective learn from it.

the main lessons we should take from the celtic tiger years in my opinion is that
1) "the value of your investment can fall"
2) to question the objectivity of information coming from vested interests

what we learn from cleaning up the mess.. that remains to be seen

You forgot (3) remember above all that the government is a vested interest.

Ulysses Gaze

Liam Byrne wrote: »

You forgot (3) remember above all that the government is a vested interest.

4) Renting is not a bad thing.

5) Owning a property does not make you rich - values are notional.

6) There is such thing as a wrong time to buy

7) Before making an investment, do your research!

8) Banks are not your friends

9) Fianna Fail bankrupted the country. Again.

gollem_1975

Liam Byrne wrote: »

You forgot (3) remember above all that the government is a vested interest.

Every individual and every collective is a vested interest so yeah would have no problem with your analysis.. where I would differ from you is the amount of blame that I would heap on the government for the current crisis (i'm a bit more moderate).

If I was to add another lesson would be that while quite rightly FF are the scapegoats for this crisis then it should be because they, as CEO's of Ireland Inc, failed to prevent the crisis rather than being the cause of the crisis.

If the accepted groupthink is that they(FF) and they alone were the cause of it then we may not have learned from this mess imo.

daithicarr

johnboy_123 wrote: »

lol I knew I'd get someone goat with that sorry Ardmacha....But in all seriousness we need outside help as our home grown options are not worth a wan.k

outside help like who? the european union or the IMF etc who will have their own agendas to push which might not be in the best interest of the irish people.
if the choices now are crap, we can always make new ones. personaly i think i will join a new party , maybe they wont have the resources or chance now to win an election and form a goverment, but if they have a burning desire for positive change then they will get my support. And if they turn out to be crap ill keep looking. i dont like the idea of voting for some party just cause they arent FF.

_Kaiser_

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

4) Renting is not a bad thing.

QFT

We need to get over this ridiculous "need" to own property in this country once and for all. The attitude that you'd somehow failed in life if you didn't own a ridiculously overvalued shoebox apartment/substandard house is partly what got us into this mess in the first place!

I don't know whether it's a historical hangover/chip from the days when "de English tuk our lands", or simply the Irish need to "keep up/show off with the Joneses", but no one NEEDS to own property!

On the continent and abroad, renting is the norm and that's what we need to focus on here - the overhauling of laws and rights around it so as to protect both landlords and tenants, as well as moving to more long-term leasing arrangements (currently most are 2 years or less in my experience), so that people CAN make a "home" from their rented accomodation.

I'm not at all saying we should abolish property ownership, but it should only be by people who actually CAN afford to do so on their actual means - not "virtual free money" as has been the case over the past decade.

Of course given the massive vested interests to maintain the status quo (including those people currently renting but itching to "get on the property ladder" :rolleyes: again as soon as possible), and given our institutional resistance to getting off our asses and putting the great good ahead of our own patch for a change, I doubt these things will happen in my lifetime.

To quote Battlestar Galactica's "Razor" special: "All this has happened before... and it will happen again."

Liam Byrne

gollem_1975 wrote: »

If the accepted groupthink is that they(FF) and they alone were the cause of it then we may not have learned from this mess imo.

No-one's claiming that.

FF allowed it to get worse by having Ahern's "friends" appointed to jobs that they couldn't do.

And they've made it worse by appointing ministers (particularly for Finance) and Taoisigh who can't do their jobs either.

So the SCALE of the crisis is down to FF.

gollem_1975

Liam Byrne wrote: »

No-one's claiming that.

FF allowed it to get worse by having Ahern's "friends" appointed to jobs that they couldn't do.

And they've made it worse by appointing ministers (particularly for Finance) and Taoisigh who can't do their jobs either.

So the SCALE of the crisis is down to FF.

good post

I think your view is moderate and definitely well-considered.

However your signature sounds more extreme/lower common denominator/tabloid etc. imo.

And by lowest common denominator i mean many people will find it more convenient to blame one easy target for this problem and tbh that easy target is FF ( even though as others have said.. these people may not be completely blameless themselves )

in a round about way I think that one of the lessons of the crisis is that the general population needs to become more sophisticated/educated, not in terms of rote-learning , but in how to think for themselves and more importantly take more responsibility for themselves.

Liam Byrne

gollem_1975 wrote: »

good post

I think your view is moderate and definitely well-considered.

However your signature sounds more extreme/lower common denominator/tabloid etc. imo.

Well you see the fact is that FF might only be partially responsible for the mess, and fully responsible for making it worse.

But they DELIBERATELY chose to make the mess affect me; they also repeatedly trot out the lie that (a) they had nothing to do with it and (b) that I had something to do with it (even during the week some FF idiot was saying that "we are living beyond our means", echoing the second-biggest con-man that was ever in charge of FF - and this despite the fact that FF were the ones who chose to pay over the odds, wasted the cash we did have on upward-only benchmarking and pointless projects like e-voting and the Bertie Bowl, still condone a member fraudulently claiming expenses and still have the support of a corrupt former leader who doesn't have a tax clearance cert and therefore cannot be a TD.

So if idiots want to gamble, that's fine.
If those idiots pay their bills, that's fine.
If those idiots don't and the banks that gave them money had to deal with / live with it, that's fine.

Firstly FF encouraged the above, making it worse. THEN they ensured that I have to help bail all the above out.

THAT is why THEY are the biggest target for my venom; because they had CHOICES and CHOSE to screw the country.