So, was out last night...

christina_x

Was out in a certain club in Galway last night (won't mention names) and i took off my shoes (i know its not allowed but i was drunk) and i lost one. I was walking around trying to find my lost shoe when the bouncer told me to put my shoes on that im not allowed around in my bare feet. I told him that i was looking for my missing shoe so that i could put them on. He then grabbed my arm tightly and dragged me out. I was shouting to him as he pulled me along that it hurt and i tried to tug my arm away, which made him squeeze tighter. He walked me to the door and told me to leave. I said i would leave, i wouldnt be back, and threatened to report him for the way he handled me. I would understand if i was causing fights or paraletic drunk, but i was a happy drunk and was not causing hassle. Today i have a very dark bruise on my arm from where he grabbed me (it even has a seperate little circle bruise from where his thumb was, and its shaped around where his fingers would have been. So my question is, are male bouncers allowed to handle females this way??

(attached photos are of my arm)

biko

Sorry everyone for removing your posts but I think OP wants a real discussion on this so:
After Hours -> Legal discussion

Social Disorder

ken2010 wrote: »

not really...but can remove you if your causing danger to yourself or anyone esle...they dont like you walking around in your bear feet because there could be glass there that you would cut your feet and sue them...and they dont really like that:)

I thought the OP was rather pretty... I assume the shoe she lost was as below and she is indeed...not a bear. Hard to know these days with makeup and such.



As for the legality of what he did... he asked you to leave the premises and as such you have your right to be their revoked. If you did not leave immediately then you are indeed trespassing, probally nothing in it.

However, while it is not really right, considering you are a women you may get sympathy in that respect. Always worth a try to go and see. I would image a better course of action would be going to the manager during the day if appropriate and if he bats off your claims then go to the Garda.

Edit: 3 Mins too late. /Braces self for deletion.

Biggins

According to the NON-FATAL OFFENCES AGAINST THE PERSONS ACT 1997, a person commits an assault who, without lawful excuse, intentional and recklessly direct or indirect, applies force to, or causes an impact on the body of another, or causes another to believe on reasonable grounds that he or she is likely immediately subjected to any such force or impact, without the consent of the other.

This is stuff I DO know about!

The man WAS right to ask that shoe wear be worn but he was totally WRONG and legally unjustified to manhandle you in order to eject you out the door.

If need be, I will list the defined defences to "trespass against the person".

Jo King

I would be more worried about the fact that you got so drunk in the first place. You were a danger to yourself and others. Bare feet in a darkened dance area are a danger. There could be broken glass on the floor, you could be trodden on by someone wearing a stiletto. The mind boggles.
Without making any specific comment on your case, you should be aware that when it is one persons word against another, and one of the people was drunk and the other was sober, the weight given to the drunkards version will generally be less than that given to the sober person's.
You are lucky more serious injury did not befall you.

Zambia

What Biggins said rings true.
Some doormen are indeed world class idiots I was a doorman and met some idiots on both sides of the door. If you where leaving of your own accord I dont think there was much reason to bruise you that hard. However where you leaving I envisage comments like "I need to find my shoe" and "I need to tell my mates" etc every time you where asked...

However its a bruise and not fatal or anything. A strongly worded letter to the management saying their doormen should use some restraint would be as far as I would go.

What you really want to know is under what law did the doorman throw you out? Biggins ?

Jev/N

Two possible issues:

Criminal - Asssault/Assault Causing Harm under NFOATPA, 1997

Possible defence: Lawful authority

Civil - Battery under the Common Law

Possible defence: Lawful authority

I won't bother with advice as it's against the forum charter.

Biggins

Zambia232 wrote: »

...What you really want to know is under what law did the doorman throw you out? Biggins ?

The owner, manager and his hired "agents" (staff and bouncers) as they are legally classified as, have a "Legal Duty Of Care" to all those that they allow enter their premises.
Its a straight forward legality for due care and responsible response.

How they go about doing just that and within the proper legal manner is another thing!

MagicSean

Generally a bouncer cannot manhandle someone unless they are a danger to themself or others and refuse to leave. In this case it would seem you were a danger to yourself and did not leave when requested.

Criminal prosecutions against bouncers are very rare for a minor incidents like this but if you feel really agrieved you can go to the gardaí and make a statement or else seek a solicitor with a view to a civil case.

PCPhoto

maybe you should talk to a solicitor

2 factors to take into consideration....

1 - you were drunk (and may not have 100% recollection)
2 - once he puts his hand on you it generally is considered assault - whether he had orders from management to remove you from the premises and if you were refusing to leave (ie. I need to find my shoe first) ....I cant comment .

goto a solicitor - take plenty of pics of the injury and discuss the matter with a solicitor - give the solicitor ALL the facts and ask his/her opinion.....ideally find a solicitor experienced with civil litigation....if you feel this guy assaulted you complain to the gardai....they can get the CCTV from the incident and review it - but do it ASAP....if the nightclub "lost" the CCTV or the Cameras were not working in that area then it can work in your favour.

Goto a solicitor - ask advice from them and if necessary goto gardai and make a complaint of assault.

christina_x

PCPhoto wrote: »

2 - once he puts his hand on you it generally is considered assault - whether he had orders from management to remove you from the premises and if you were refusing to leave (ie. I need to find my shoe first) ....I cant comment .

Yeah see i could understand a bit more if i had even refused. He seen me with a shoe in my hand and asked me to put my shoes on and i said i was looking for my second shoe so that i could put them on - he didn't ask me to leave at that point, just to put my shoes on. Then he just grabbed my arm and dragged me away.

MagicSean

christina_x wrote: »

Yeah see i could understand a bit more if i had even refused. He seen me with a shoe in my hand and asked me to put my shoes on and i said i was looking for my second shoe so that i could put them on - he didn't ask me to leave at that point, just to put my shoes on. Then he just grabbed my arm and dragged me away.

And if you had taken another step forward and stepped on a piece of broken glass would you have been happier?

NickDrake

A person is allowed to use reasonable force to remove a person from his premises, when they refuse to leave. An employer can give such a duty to an employee.

If must be proven he took unreasonable force. He is allowed place his hands on you.

Employer could be liable in a civil case.

Seems to me he used reasonable force.

christina_x

k_mac wrote: »

And if you had taken another step forward and stepped on a piece of broken glass would you have been happier?

Yes because that would have been totally my fault. Instead some man grabbed me and hurt me, and then kicked me out to walk home with no shoes instead of allowing me to search for it

slimjimmc

christina_x wrote: »

Yes because that would have been totally my fault. Instead some man grabbed me and hurt me, and then kicked me out to walk home with no shoes instead of allowing me to search for it

Well you did say yourself that you were drunk and that you resisted by tugging your arm which necessitated him holding you more firmly. Now, while drunkedness certainly doesn't excuse any alleged excessive force it may influenced both your reaction and your recollection of events.

And it is entirely your fault that you went barefoot knowing it was against the rules and kicked up a fuss. I'd say your shoe-less eviction was entirely your fault indeed.

drkpower

You: Drunk, looking for lost shoes in a nightclub

Him: Sober, at work

It doesnt take a genius to figure out who is going to be believed in a 'your word v his' scenario. That is not to say that I dont believe you, it is just to say that you probably dont have enough to succeed in a civil case, and there isnt a rat's chance in hell to suceed in a criminal case.

Of course, there may be some attraction in making the guys life a misery by making a formal complaint to his employer, to the Gardai and even insituting civil proceedings. But is the time, energy, stress and expense worth it just to make the guy's life a misery for a while, because you are unlikely to achieve anything substantive. Make your decision now; either you committ yourself fully to it, or drop in entirely; if you go with half measures, you will certainly be the loser in every respect.

MagicSean

christina_x wrote: »

Yes because that would have been totally my fault. Instead some man grabbed me and hurt me, and then kicked me out to walk home with no shoes instead of allowing me to search for it

Thats a flat out lie. You would rather have a big piece of glass stuck in your foot than a bruise on your arm? That kind of attitude is the reason bouncers have to remove people who are a danger to themselves. Alcohol removes your power of reason.

Bosco boy

This situation came about because the OP allowed herself to get drunk and be a danger to herself, if she didnt do that and was responsible there would have been no interaction between her and the bouncer. You dont have to beat someone to bruise someone and if the OP had left when asked they would probally not be present. Its not easy dealing with drunks but when you get drunks with attitudes it can be particularily difficult, there were alot around during the celtic tiger! consider it a lesson learned and move on lady!

amdublin

I don't want to comment on the actual incident.

So I will just say that personally, if I was a bit tipsy in a nightclub.....and took my shoes off......and lost one.....and was asked to leave and then was escorted out by the arm: at the time of the whole incident (ie while I was drunk) I would be very angry.

Next morning I would either think it was hilarious and laugh about it with my friends and it would be one of those stories that go down in the "omg when I was twenty I was so drunk that I......." category.

Or I would be so mortified that I would not be mentioning it to anyone.

If it was me I would certainly not be posting pics of bruises (which may have been caused by me resisting being lead out) and certainly I would not be taking this matter any further.



Best of luck OP. Those bruises will fade, would be worse if you were in A&E with a big lump of glass in your foot and a €150 hospital bill.

hatrickpatrick

The genders should be totally irrelevant IMO.
ANY bouncer shouldn't be allowed to handle ANYONE in this way.

MagicSean

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

The genders should be totally irrelevant IMO.
ANY bouncer shouldn't be allowed to handle ANYONE in this way.

How do you propose they remove a person from the premises.

The Big Red Button

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

The genders should be totally irrelevant IMO.
ANY bouncer shouldn't be allowed to handle ANYONE in this way.

But what is "this" way?

I know the bruises look dramatic, but I have friends who bruise like that very easily - if a friend grabbed their arm just messing about, they'd end up with similar bruises. It's very possible that he just firmly held onto her arm while walking her out. CCTV is everywhere in these places, of course he'd be aware of it, I'd be a little doubtful that he would have risked his job by handling her in an inappropriate manner.

OP I've been in similar states myself in nightclubs. If you get messy, there's a chance you'll be kicked out. If you don't like the way he handled it, go to a different nightclub. I just can't see it being worth your time and effort to attempt to take this any further.

amdublin

drkpower wrote: »

Of course, there may be some attraction in making the guys life a misery by making a formal complaint to his employer, to the Gardai and even insituting civil proceedings. But is the time, energy, stress and expense worth it just to make the guy's life a misery for a while, because you are unlikely to achieve anything substantive. Make your decision now; either you committ yourself fully to it, or drop in entirely; if you go with half measures, you will certainly be the loser in every respect.

OP do you really really want to go down this route???

amdublin

chatterpillar wrote: »

I just can't see it being worth your time and effort to attempt to take this any further.

^
This

drkpower

amdublin wrote: »

OP do you really really want to go down this route???

If I genuinely felt that a bouncer had entirely unjustifiably assaulted me, I would consider it a labour of love to make the guys life a living misery, even if it meant extra hassle for me. I wouldnt have as much expense as the OP as I could prosecute it myself, but it really comes down to how much you want to make the guy squirm, and how much you are willing to spend (emotionally and financially) to do so.

Of course, if i was so hammerred drunk that i couldnt find my bleedin' shoes, i might doubt my own memory of how things went down; but im a very good drunk......;)

MagicSean

drkpower wrote: »

If I genuinely felt that a bouncer had entirely unjustifiably assaulted me, I would consider it a labour of love to make the guys life a living misery, even if it meant extra hassle for me. I wouldnt have as much expense as the OP as I could prosecute it myself, but it really comes down to how much you want to make the guy squirm, and how much you are willing to spend (emotionally and financially) to do so.

Of course, if i was so hammerred drunk that i couldnt find my bleedin' shoes, i might doubt my own memory of how things went down; but im a very good drunk......;)

I doubt he'll squirm. People threaten them with this stuff nightly. Drunks don't tend to take ejection well.

drkpower

k_mac wrote: »

I doubt he'll squirm. People threaten them with this stuff nightly. Drunks don't tend to take ejection well.

If you read my post, you will see that if you want him to squirm, you need to go the whole hog; make an official complaint to his employer, to the Gardai, and issue civil proceedings. If there is any foundation whatsoever to the OP's (or anyone else's contention) that she was assaulted, all of the above will cause significant squirmage. Of course, whether it is worth the personal investment is a question only each individual can answer.

amdublin

Brayson Greasy Peppermint wrote: »

Id like to see what happens if you follow this up, bouncers get away with way too much. If you were my sister I would be onto a solicitor straight away.

Why? So you could publicise how you were so drunk that you took off your shoes in a nightclub..... so drunk that you lost one of the shoes....so drunk that you had to be escorted out of a nightclub.....so drunk that you resisted being escorted and ended up with bruises on your arm.

If this was me and I caused all of the above I'd be wouldn't be looking to make anyone squirm because I don't think I could squirm anymore then I am squirming while looking at the above details in black and white.

OP are you going to take this any further?

drkpower

amdublin wrote: »

f this was me and I caused all of the above I'd be wouldn't be looking to make anyone squirm because I don't think I could squirm anymore then I am squirming while looking at the above details in black and white.

Im certainly not defending the OP or accepting her version of events. However, there are plenty of scenarios within the confines of the details given by the OP that could amount to a bouncer acting entirely unreasonably. If that is the case, and if the Op has a clear enough recollection to come to that conclusion, she is fully entitled to and would be right, in my opinion, to take action to try and make him pay for his actions (even if that 'payment' is only fear and discomfort and stress, rather than anything more substantive).

amdublin

Brayson Greasy Peppermint wrote: »

So if it was you and you had bruises like that you would think it was ok because....ah well in fairness now I was drunk. Being drunk, does not give the bouncers or anyone the right to use such force as to leave her in that state. Anyway I wish her all the best with it.

Honest to god, imo it is such a silly little story that I would prefer not to have to go through it with a solicitor or repeat it to my parents, my grandparents, my family.

If I was repeating that story I would rather it be in the context of "what a mad night" to my friends rather than in the context of legal action against a man trying to do his job and me making a big nuisance of myself.

drkpower

amdublin wrote: »

Honest to god, imo it is such a silly little story that I would prefer not to have to go through it with a solicitor or repeat it to my parents, my grandparents, my family.

If I was repeating that story I would rather it be in the context of "what a mad night" to my friends rather than in the context of legal action against a man trying to do his job and me making a big nuisance of myself.

I suppose it depends on how you perceive your own actions, on how objectionable you find someone physically manhandling you in that context, and how far you are willing to go to 'punish' them.

x in the city

being drunk would totally go against the op, but the bouncer did seem excessive.

I would leave it at that and don't walk around bare foot drunk again, its not cool...

MagicSean

On the other hand, if you are drunk enough to lose a shoe can you really be sure the bruise was from the bouncer and not from another drunken encounter?

drkpower

k_mac wrote: »

On the other hand, if you are drunk enough to lose a shoe can you really be sure the bruise was from the bouncer and not from another drunken encounter?

Depends how the shoe was lost and what the OP remembers of it; if they were taken off coz they were sore (common enough for the ladies, im told) and some smart arse decided to hide one, it wouldnt take a whole lot of drunkeness. Being unable to perceive what incident left you with a very large bruise is another thing entirely.